Optimized render serttings cheat sheet

[heni30]

In a way the complexity is good for professional renderers. I'm offering an enhancement service to improve architects low/medium quality images in Photoshop. It seems to be taking off - just got another call this morning.

 

We will be in trouble when we see "Vray for Dummies" on Amazon.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[Nic H]

why will we be in trouble?

[heni30]

I think that will mean that Vray has been dumbed down to where Photorealism IS achievable by pushing a couple of buttons. Our privileged status of select members of the inner circle of Vray Esoterica will disappear.

 

OF COURSE that has nothing to do with the artistic side of the process but there are a lot of "dummies" out there who will be wowed by just the PR and that will be good enough.

 

And I mean trouble for people who make their living off of it. I had a mobile mechanic who used to come to work on my British sports car. His rates were $60/hr do the work, $70/hr if you watched him do it and $80/hr if you helped.

 

I think there's a dilemma where an altruistic side of you wants knowledge to be universally available (like say, via YouTube) but at the same time knowledge is power, money-making power, and in a practical sense it benefits you to keep people from acquiring it too readily.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of guitar teachers cursing all the free instruction that you can find on YouTube.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[Nic H]

well i cant wait for the day its 'one touch photo-real' i dont like fiddling with settings much and after 10 years i have no interest in it anymore. i don't want to train another person in the ins and outs of pre rendering irradiance maps and the like.

 

there will always be a technical coal face but the quicker the fundamentals (photo-realism) are made easy to achieve the better. the future isn't (hopefully) going to be based soley on technical knowledge and the slight shift of focus onto ideas will remove a lot of the people who currently do architectural work

[heni30]

I think their big problem right from the start was opening up the hood and showing you all the inner workings of the engine.

 

They should have just had an algorithm analyze all your lights, another one all your materials and then have 3 buttons on the UI screen.

 

Button 1 - high quality - slow time Button 2 medium quality - med time and Button 3 low quality - fast time

 

THEN , if you wanted to, you could go inside and tweak things manually.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[Scott Schroeder]

There will never be push button photo realism in the all around sense of things. Sure, you might have the settings done for you, but there is so much more that goes into what makes a photo real rendering.

 

I'd love to have a program that looks my my PC, looks at my needs and timeframe, looks at what I consider to be acceptable quality, and spits out final quality render setting. That way I can spend extra time modeling, setting up lights and materials, and in post world. Or even better, spend more time outside of work. Maybe even with my family. When I taught first time rendering students, the very first thing I did was give my students presets. I wanted to them to concentrate on what really makes the rendering shine and not worry about the difference between .005 and .006 noise values.

 

Why do you think there are so many How to Vray threads? People buy Vray and go, "Ok Vray, make me a pretty picture." Then they go, "Oh look, artist B is using Corona. Ok Corona, make me a pretty picture." Finally they say, "Rendering sux." Those people blindly believe that it's Vray or whatever engine that is going to make the rendering dipped in awesome sauce. Frankly I'd love to see Juraj, Peter, or Bertrand do a rendering with scanline and the whole community scream that scanline rendering is the greatest thing since the lava lamp.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of guitar teachers cursing all the free instruction that you can find on YouTube.

 

Yep, learning gee-tar on YouTube is easy.

 

[heni30]

Yep, learning gee-tar on YouTube is easy.

 

Actually this is one on my areas of expertise. First of all no one said it was easy. I'm saying that you can learn this very song entirely on YouTube whereas before you'd have to go to a lot of lessons with a guitar teacher to do it and pay mucho $$$$.

 

You can first find a bunch of people who can teach you the basics of shredding starting with the first baby steps - how to position your arm, hand and fingers; how to hold your pick. Beginning exercises, beginning practicing of scales. How to avoid bad habits, etc.

 

Then you go on to the next steps and the next and the next.

 

And you can find a dozen people with different approaches and different personalities to suit your preferences and what you feel comfortable with. ANYONE with the desire and dedication can learn to play this song. Anyone with the desire, dedication, natural ability and good looks can

become a guitar GOD. Yngwie Malmsteen said in an interview that he played 8 hours a day for 5 years from the time he 13. It is all there in front of you.

 

Pre-YouTube there is no way you could figure out what was going on at that speed without a teacher. Now, the amount of guitar learning information, every genre, every style, every level, that is at your finger tips is simply astounding. Probably not good for teachers.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[philvanderloo]

George and Scott- your subliminal message is coming in very clear. "Roll up your sleeves and learn the program."

And I'm going to do just that.

It is cool to see how much information is out there on youtube and so many other places. I'm really enjoying taking it all in. But I have a long way to go. Thanks for all of the great input. Hopefully I'll be a contributor in this forum some day soon.

[klonk]

This is the most pointless sentiment that ever existed, I think it exists for 150 years now ?!

 

If ever (and I do believe it will eventually happen, just not that soon), we get a software, where not only do we not need to push single "win/awesome button", but we can purely just use imagination, than that will be beyond all means only good thing.

 

I do really hope everyone who fears he will loose job to technological advancement to loose that job so he can collect the remaining parts of his critical thinking and start something else with fresh outlook on life.

 

The wisdom in these words are divine, and I long for that software every day. It's not that I'm opposed to learning the ins and outs of render theory, it's that there are so many other things I would rather spend my time on. I'm in architecture and focused on creating spaces, not understanding the latest ideal settings for a renderer or other complexities. I need many different tools for my work, from CAD to energy tools to rendering. You might say I should specialize and let a 3D visualizer do the presentation work, but I don't want that, as seeing a rendering is an important part of my workflow. The industry has always looked like this, but it has also always consolidated, as tools have become commoditized and come down in price. flame operators could create things that wasn't reasonable with desktop tools, and you needed SGI systems in order to do 3D animation, creating massive barriers to entry. Tools were very specific and crude compared to today. This didn't and doesn't stop artists, but it certainly limits the amount of tools it is reasonable for them to master, and that can't be a good thing.

 

 

Since 3.0 includes an attempt to simpler user settings I have tried to start a discussion on this a couple of times in the forum, but to no avail. In my mind, something like Solidrocks should be built in. As it is now SR is a bit caught in no mans land, Jerome adds more and more to please his users that wants to stay in the interface, increasing the complexity, and ironically becoming an example for Chaos that those kinds of tools doesn't work, as it is hard to say where to stop and they will eventually become just as complex. I think Chaos Group realizes that other tools are getting better, and that there is a huge demand for a lower learning investment, but at the same time they themselves really can't put themselves in this potential user's shoes. Vlado's knowledge is mindblowing, but I also think it makes it really hard for him to see how a regular user possibly couldn't understand the simple concept of relating a DMC sampler to antialiasing. I mean, it is so obvious, right? Please don't tell me that this couldn't be automated.

 

I think another aspect is that a lot of existing users, even those that really are very creative artists and wouldn't have to worry, have spent so much time learning Vray that it would be frustrating if it suddenly became very accessible. It's natural for people to want to protect a skill, and it becomes a club. I get it, it's a great feeling to master things, it's just that it is a different thing. You shouldn't have to be a tinkerer in order to be creative. Pen and paper is the ultimate example, we can all do it, but it doesn't look the same for all of us just because of this. One day all of these render settings will be real-time and we can focus on the image instead of optimizing the engine. At the end of the day most design related issues comes down to taste, and not technological proficiency. Like Juraj said, if you feel the need for complicated tools to separate you from the rest, you're already obsolete and should do something else.

[Scott Schroeder]

George and Scott- your subliminal message is coming in very clear. "Roll up your sleeves and learn the program."

And I'm going to do just that.

It is cool to see how much information is out there on youtube and so many other places. I'm really enjoying taking it all in. But I have a long way to go. Thanks for all of the great input. Hopefully I'll be a contributor in this forum some day soon.

 

Actually it's more learn what you need and leave the rest in the book. There is no shame in buying SolidRocks in the meantime. Once you master what you put into Vray, then you can learn the ins and outs of Vray itself if you so feel the need to. Really though, there are just a few critical setting you need to concern yourself with. Composition, modeling(to whatever extent you feel you need), lighting, materials, post are all much much much more important for you to learn right now.

 

Actually this is one on my areas of expertise. First of all no one said it was easy. I'm saying that you can learn this very song entirely on YouTube whereas before you'd have to go to a lot of lessons with a guitar teacher to do it and pay mucho $$$$.

 

You can first find a bunch of people who can teach you the basics of shredding starting with the first baby steps - how to position your arm, hand and fingers; how to hold your pick. Beginning exercises, beginning practicing of scales. How to avoid bad habits, etc.

 

Then you go on to the next steps and the next and the next.

 

And you can find a dozen people with different approaches and different personalities to suit your preferences and what you feel comfortable with. ANYONE with the desire and dedication can learn to play this song. Anyone with the desire, dedication, natural ability and good looks can

become a guitar GOD. Yngwie Malmsteen said in an interview that he played 8 hours a day for 5 years from the time he 13. It is all there in front of you.

 

Pre-YouTube there is no way you could figure out what was going on at that speed without a teacher. Now, the amount of guitar learning information, every genre, every style, every level, that is at your finger tips is simply astounding. Probably not good for teachers.

 

Oh please, this is just pointless fear mongering over a new media delivery method. By your logic, HGTV and DIY-Network has killed the contractor right? Food network has rendered all chef's jobs obsolete too. Ditto for car mechanics and SpeedTV. Back in them old timey days, they had these books called guitar tab books. You could use those to figure out songs. Hell, they were even in the back of every shred magazine out there. So you had information, it was just in a different media format.

 

There is probably more money in getting a well followed YouTube channel than there is in actually going out and teaching. Let's just embrace the new media and realize it's making all of our lives better and not going to take anyone's jerbs. Unless a person is a really bad teacher and the only one in town. Then, maybe YouTube might take their job.

Edited April 29, 2014 by VelvetElvis

[heni30]

Well, tell typesetters that TrueType fonts are making our lives better and it's not going to affect their jobs.

 

There's always going to be a need for teachers, especially in the beginning phase and to receive constructive criticism about progress and technique but to say they are not being affected at all is not accurate. And there's a big difference between a tabs sheet and someone patiently explaining a riff with demonstrations and zoom ins of both hands and giving tips and tricks AND that you can pause and rewind.

 

There have been AV lessons around for a long time, though, starting with VHS.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[Francisco Penaloza]

Talking about one click solution

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27156775

[RyderSK]

Since 3.0 includes an attempt to simpler user settings I have tried to start a discussion on this a couple of times in the forum, but to no avail. In my mind, something like Solidrocks should be built in. As it is now SR is a bit caught in no mans land, Jerome adds more and more to please his users that wants to stay in the interface, increasing the complexity, and ironically becoming an example for Chaos that those kinds of tools doesn't work, as it is hard to say where to stop and they will eventually become just as complex. I think Chaos Group realizes that other tools are getting better, and that there is a huge demand for a lower learning investment, but at the same time they themselves really can't put themselves in this potential user's shoes. Vlado's knowledge is mindblowing, but I also think it makes it really hard for him to see how a regular user possibly couldn't understand the simple concept of relating a DMC sampler to antialiasing. I mean, it is so obvious, right? Please don't tell me that this couldn't be automated.

 

 

Heh I felt like this was something I would write :- ) I share the same opinion on current state of Vray, Solidrocks and your evaluation of Vlado. And likewise, think 3.0 is step in the right direction, and I think he himself starts to have more healthy outlook on his DMC child, where the uber-tinkering is now more supported by the forum then him and crew. They're not dumb though, the market has life of its own, and few renderers (I think it's more Arnold that they are concerned but they got eager interest in Corona likewise) shown the path, all the evolution seems pretty positive for everyone.

 

I am glad the discussion got such interesting feel after all.

[klonk]

Well, tell typesetters that TrueType fonts are making our lives better and it's not going to affect their jobs.

 

I just must assume you're using this example to be ironic, or do you actually feel typesetters should have been protected somehow? If you feel you are the typesetter of today, I would recommend that you quickly adapt to TrueType and desktop publishing, as progress will not wait because you find it convenient.

[heni30]

I think I was referring to guitar teachers being threatened by the vast wealth of learning material on YouTube. As I said I think they will be around but, in a diminished capacity. My neighbor across the street is a guitar teacher and is used to getting $40 for a 1/2 hr. lesson (and I'm talking about popular music - rock, blues, etc.). His value will not go down but the demand for much of what he used to provide has gone down.

 

As Scott mentioned - he has the option to adapt and offer an instruction service online based on a subscription fee (lesson modules that people can access at any time) and his market will vastly increase; he might make more money working less than before.

 

Wow! Join date 2005 with 16 posts - and 1 of them to deride me. I'm flattered.

Edited April 29, 2014 by heni30

[RyderSK]

I don't think private teachers will ever be threatened, they have never been sought after foremost because of exclusive knowledge, but because they offer additional value of personalized approach, and human contact/social interaction. Not quite the same as passive watching of youtube. And than there is the 'lazy' (I put it in quotes, because it doesn't need to be laziness at all, there are so many reasons which are more than valid in non-negative conotations) aspect, where most people prefer to be spoonfed, something that is much easier done by someone else next to you.

 

With rising trend of investing in oneself, I think it will be very booming industry (private tutoring). And as correctly stated, they now have better opportunities to scale their bussiness, with building virtual community or other endeavors.

[klonk]

Wow! Join date 2005 with 16 posts - and 1 of them to deride me. I'm flattered.

 

Well, I've gotten more active lately.

 

Not really my intention to deride anybody, but my point is that progress will happen regardless if we are prepared for it or not. If the only barrier to entry is tool complexity or money, the skill set isn't worth much. A guitarist practices for a long time and the same goes for a 3D artist in order to become skilled, but that effort should be in terms of understanding colors, scale, composition, lighting, etc that has to do with the end image, not noise thresholds and linear workflows, right?

[heni30]

Of course, I completely agree. That's when the value of your artistic skill set would kick in.

 

Technical prowess is fun and maybe profitable but superficial with no real foundation. No one can take away your artistic sensibility.

 

Unless they include a "Roman Style" button, and a "Juraj Style" button and a ....................

Edited April 30, 2014 by heni30

[CliveG]

I think you're arguing apples V oranges. We are all different. Me - I'm foremost a designer and I'll never be a Juraj, but I suspect Juraj will never be a Clive ( and wouldn't want to be :-) ) Scott teaches, Nic has a more artistic side, George plays guitar, Niclas is an Architect, I think Marius is too.... so how is poor Vlado going to come up with something that pleases us all?

 

Personally I think he's done a pretty good job so far because we're all here, the technically minded the artistically minded and the creatively minded and there are even a few of us here who don't aspire to rock Vray to it's limits. We all have different motivations and imperatives behind our use of Vray.

 

Because we are all different, Vlado has supplied a great engine for us as a basis. Subsequently to my way of thinking there is definitely a place for Solidrocks for those that just don't want to understand the subtleties of DMC... but at the same time there are those of us that would prefer to try and understand what goes on under that mythical hood too, there is no way I understand 10% of Juraj or Scott or some of you guys do but at least I have a choice as it stands. I could always go and buy Solidrocks if I don't like how I work currently.

 

I think if Vlado dumbs it down too far it would be a bad move as it may tie the hands of some of the more experienced users who push the bounds and drag us along slowly behind them. We all benefit from the Juraj's and his ilk out there working, understanding and explaining the technicalities and limits of Vray.

 

Perhaps Solidrocks are the guys that need to up their game and be the one making their product more of a necessity for those who don't want to delve deeper under the hood or there needs to be Solidrocks competition?

[Scott Schroeder]

Here is something depressing. The top 10 earners on YouTube.

 

#10: RealAnnoyingOrange – $3.4 million (1.9b views)

#9: UberHaxorNova – $3.5 million (1.1b views)

#8: RayWilliamJohnson – $4 million (2.6b views)

#7: TobyGames – $4.2 million (1.6b views)

#6: JennaMarbles – $4.3 million (1.4b views)

#5: BluCollection – $4.8 million (1.4b views)

#4: DisneyCollectorBR – $5 million (1.6b views)

#3: Smosh – $5.7 million (3.1b views)

#2: BlueXephos – $6.7 million (2.4b views)

#1: Pewdiepie – $7 million (3.7b views)

 

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/celebrity/the-25-highest-earning-youtube-stars/

 

Back to the topic at hand. Clive is right. We all have different needs and different thresholds for noise in our renders. That is what makes Vray so good is that we do have the option to really adjust things, say as compared to Mental Ray where you may not have as much freedom to really tweak your settings. I can see a rise in progressive rendering here shortly. Corona is nice because, for the most part, it can be a fire and forget type of render. You stop it when you feel you have reached an acceptable quality.

[RyderSK]

I am quite shocked by those numbers. That's waaaaay more than I thought they would be making..

I've never even heard of either, or seen any video of them.

[Francisco Penaloza]

Just to wrap up a little this thread and since now it seams to be going in to dark areas of our space time continuum

 

To be honest I did a lot of render with VRay at the beginning only using default values, of course you could not compared them with Bertrand B. or Guthrie but they where OK, later on when refined more my photoshop skills it really help to make them look more professional. By that time I was more confident using V-Ray and had time to read some here and there that little by little help me to increase the quality over all.

reading after everybody here it may sound like it will be ages of dark nights and piles of book, well web pages before you can even get one image, and in reality, this is not true.

As mentioned early, default preset already in V-Ray 2 are good enough to get you a good image, good modeling and some extra love in Photoshop will give you even better results.

Also V Ray 3 has great presets for interiors and exteriors, universal system will give you great images, Guthrie says that's all what he uses, and also great composition and photoshop skill and good modeling details of course

[klonk]

I think if Vlado dumbs it down too far it would be a bad move as it may tie the hands of some of the more experienced users who push the bounds and drag us along slowly behind them. We all benefit from the Juraj's and his ilk out there working, understanding and explaining the technicalities and limits of Vray.

 

I just don't think the one necessarily has to exclude the other. While keeping all values accessible under the hood I would love to see more intelligent automation of some of the parameters that are more technical.