Need Help - Turning down work!

[danb4026]

I am a freelance 3d artist/visualizer in NY that needs an extra pair of SKILLED hands quickly. I'm currently working on 2 projects, which is already too much, and have 2 more that want proposals for quick turn around. Quality work is a must. I need help fast or I will lose the jobs.

 

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[Chris MacDonald]

Would like to, but I'm the same. A minimum 3-4 week lead-in time at the moment for projects.

[danb4026]

Great to be busy, but I hate turning away work.

 

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[RyderSK]

How is it a problem though ? I turn down about 20 jobs a week minimum, no exaggeration. Potential job is just that...potential job.

 

Taking a job and outsourcing it completely is con on the client (even the quality will depend on the sub-contractor, so client might benefit), and also bad for the sub-contractor, who will have to suffer miserable communication through middle-man, and in the end get only part of the budget for doing 100perc. of the job.

 

This sort of thing needs to die, and people should think of them higher than to sub-contract. I learned my lesson too. Only job worth taking is direct clients. Nothing else, at all, under any circumstance, ever.

 

Everyone could start this topic honestly, there is so much work around. I think of starting some sort of crusade against it. Sub-contracting offers seriously offend me and they go directly into spam folder, where their authors belong too.

 

"I hate turning away work. " Then start a real company.

 

//end of rant.

Edited May 15, 2014 by RyderSK

[danb4026]

No reason so insult me. I'm a one man operation and it's feast or famine. I'm recently lost my associate who went on to entirely different career. Now I'm on my own and have to turn people away, which I really can't afford to do.

 

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[danb4026]

What I would really like to do is find someone local that can work directly with me. But I have not had any luck as of yet finding someone good.

 

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[RyderSK]

No reason so insult me. I'm a one man operation and it's feast or famine. I'm recently lost my associate who went on to entirely different career. Now I'm on my own and have to turn people away, which I really can't afford to do.

 

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It's just my general tone, it's not personal, please don't feel insulted, that is not my intention :- ).

But I do hate this practice and I had to voice it.

 

Finding a partner is what you should then do, and it seems what you are after, but your original post didn't read like that.

 

Getting lot of offers isn't only incentive to get more work, it's also incentive to try raising your fees/margins. It's much better way to profit then slaving under tons of work.

[danb4026]

I understand.... Yes what I would really like to have is a partner. My problem is that it's feast or famine like I previously stated. I will go a week or 2 with no work and then all of a sudden, in one day, 4 clients will contact me needing renderings. So either I'm doing nothing or I have to turn down work simply because of the timing. It's very frustrating. I can't pay someone a salary because it's only me and my cashflow is like a roller coaster.

 

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[Tommy L]

How is it a problem though ? I turn down about 20 jobs a week minimum, no exaggeration. Potential job is just that...potential job.

 

Taking a job and outsourcing it completely is con on the client (even the quality will depend on the sub-contractor, so client might benefit), and also bad for the sub-contractor, who will have to suffer miserable communication through middle-man, and in the end get only part of the budget for doing 100perc. of the job.

 

This sort of thing needs to die, and people should think of them higher than to sub-contract. I learned my lesson too. Only job worth taking is direct clients. Nothing else, at all, under any circumstance, ever.

 

Everyone could start this topic honestly, there is so much work around. I think of starting some sort of crusade against it. Sub-contracting offers seriously offend me and they go directly into spam folder, where their authors belong too.

 

"I hate turning away work. " Then start a real company.

 

//end of rant.

 

I dont think you'll make any friends throwing stones from your ivory tower like that. You have to remember that alot of people here live practically on the bread line. My first few years as a freelancer I made about 20k a yr until things settled into a rhythm. At that time I'd have sold my own granny into prostitution if it would keep a client happy.

[danb4026]

Quite right Tommy. I don't want to subcontract work out... I have had an impossible time finding a partner that can produce the quality that my clients require. I would also NOT pass a client on to a potential competitor. My input would always be there.

 

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[RyderSK]

I dont think you'll make any friends throwing stones from your ivory tower like that. You have to remember that alot of people here live practically on the bread line. My first few years as a freelancer I made about 20k a yr until things settled into a rhythm. At that time I'd have sold my own granny into prostitution if it would keep a client happy.

 

That's only because you look at it from your direction. The person who you will subcontract will do all the work, get no recognition, and only small part of the budget, how is that fair to him/them ? Will you leave that client to him later ? Or try to get him some "non-competing" clausule in contract ?

 

I did a lot of it too, and very much regret every bit of it. It wasted time, the work suffered because I couldn't voice directly my communication to client, the work belonged to contractor party, and I was lucky if I got even 50perc. of what they received.

 

Such bussiness model is sound for an agency, where it is perfectly moral in lines of what they do, but here it is just shady, that's my opinion. Be it Ivory tower or I don't know what. Do you even make it clear to your client it's not you at all who will do that work ?

 

I have zero qualms with making virtual friends or not, I know from my experience, and from experience of tens of other CGI artists who struggled in these types of job. It's not a fair deal for both parties.

 

 

By all means, maybe I was too harsch, Dan later made it sound like he really struggle. And on other hand, I know 'personally' a lot of people who simply used others for this type of work for more than selfish reasons and I do have quite distaste for this form of work now that I developed.

 

Yes I know "bussiness is bussiness", sub-contractors can often be happy to get any work, will work for much less, everyone will profit to some degree but it's the sub-contractor who will least of all. With all the crying out for "fair wages", "fair margins", "no undercutting", it seems it doesn't matter anymore if it concerns the person himself.

 

But I cease my case, as long as others are fine with it, whatever. There might be lot of shades to it, I often see things dramatically. I apologize

Edited May 15, 2014 by RyderSK

[heni30]

It depends on the situation. If you are still developing your skills and are doing sub work for someone who is better than you with more experience and you're working on large scale projects that you can't get yet, it can be VERY beneficial to do this. Would you do work for Benoit if he was overloaded? It's like you are being paid to learn. It all depends on your attitude and how you view it that determines if you're being exploited. And of course it would just be a temporary thing even if it lasted years.

[CliveG]

That's only because you look at it from your direction.

 

Deep down, you all know Juraj is pretty much correct on this one.

 

What is different is perhaps that a lot of people here see every single piece of potential work as precious because they're doing it tough. We all, including Juraj I'm sure, sympathise. Actually for the first time in years my workload has tanked a bit too, so I really do sympathise but that doesn't necessarily make sub-contracting right.

 

However would you want to be that sub-contractor, getting paid less whilst the middle-man get's their money for being the person who picked up the phone, also you're getting second hand communication and lacking control and direction of your work. It's not ideal but if you're OK with that then go for it, your conscience is clear.

 

It's not a long way from this thread http://forums.cgarchitect.com/74833-outsourcing-far-east.html which shows it's a very fine line from hypocrisy if we're into this sub-contracting but then start to whine if our work bleeds to the cheaper contractor or in this case cheaper economies.

 

Anyway on a more positive note over the years I've seen many small business' benefit from using "joint ventures" as a springboard. So in effect it's a similar proposition but it's being up-front and honest with everyone.

[Tommy L]

Deep down, you all know Juraj is pretty much correct on this one.

 

What is different is perhaps that a lot of people here see every single piece of potential work as precious because they're doing it tough. We all, including Juraj I'm sure, sympathise. Actually for the first time in years my workload has tanked a bit too, so I really do sympathise but that doesn't necessarily make sub-contracting right.

 

However would you want to be that sub-contractor, getting paid less whilst the middle-man get's their money for being the person who picked up the phone, also you're getting second hand communication and lacking control and direction of your work. It's not ideal but if you're OK with that then go for it, your conscience is clear.

 

It's not a long way from this thread http://forums.cgarchitect.com/74833-outsourcing-far-east.html which shows it's a very fine line from hypocrisy if we're into this sub-contracting but then start to whine if our work bleeds to the cheaper contractor or in this case cheaper economies.

 

Anyway on a more positive note over the years I've seen many small business' benefit from using "joint ventures" as a springboard. So in effect it's a similar proposition but it's being up-front and honest with everyone.

 

I have to disagree.

I am not a person who complains about work going overseas to cheaper competitors, its a free market. I also have no qualms with using freelancers without expanding to become a 'real' company as Juraj would put it. I dont even consider myself a company really, Im a freelancer who pulls in help from a network of other freelancers. I am very open with my clients about this. Its a business model I like.

Do my freelancers like working on my projects? Yes, they certainly do. For the most part they dictate the fee and the payment terms and get regular work. None of the parties involved are getting short-changed.

 

The only derisive angle for me would be a more philosophical one weighing the long term impact of sporadic self employment on a large scale corroding the traditional structure of employment. Kind of an ac-hoc transaction economy replacing a fixed income model...

However, in practical terms our industry is so small its hardly going to shift the paradigm.

[CliveG]

I am very open with my clients about this. Its a business model I like. Do my freelancers like working on my projects? Yes, they certainly do. For the most part they dictate the fee and the payment terms and get regular work. None of the parties involved are getting short-changed.

 

I think you missed my point Tom, If you're up front with the clients it ceases to be deceptive and so your business model would be more of what I would consider a joint-venture between yourself and your freelancers then, with the client fully aware. This is not the type of business practice I would take issue with.

 

As for the philosophical angle of corroding the traditional structure of employment.... I doubt there'd be too many here that would have a problem with that either.

[RyderSK]

I am very open with my clients about this. Its a business model I like.

Do my freelancers like working on my projects? Yes, they certainly do. For the most part they dictate the fee and the payment terms and get regular work. None of the parties involved are getting short-changed.

 

But this is rather rarity. In 95perc. of cases, sub-contracting in this industry looks differently, where end-client, and subcontractor will never know of each other.

What you described is almost on verge of informal partnership, something rather positive, because all parties are aware of what's involved and every is treated fairly.

I have esp. problem with those "who only pick the telephone" only to then simply send it fully to someone, bare the party of any right to imagery and contat with clients and client being kept fully unaware other party was involved in making their imagery.

Edited May 16, 2014 by RyderSK

[Francisco Penaloza]

I don't see this as black and white, and it seems you had very bad experiences Juraj, but I understand type of business that you are talking about, kind of Cg pimps but is the price that we all have to pay when we are young and inexperience in this business, well any business really.

Like everything else there is a lot of dirty business models around but also there is a true collaboration between freelancers, and I think this is very positive because is the only way that freelancers can compete with bigger companies. I have done it before, if I get bigger project that is too much for my self or many jobs at the same time I contact some friend artist some that I have meet here in some CG forums and share the wealth, I do not abuse of them they get pay right what they deserve good deal, actually sometimes I get nothing unless I work on those projects too, quality control or final touch, You can delegate functions not responsibility, is a business principal.

Now if you use and abuse, that is not inherit of this business that happens in any type of business, Sad for sure.

[heni30]

I have to disagree.

I am not a person who complains about work going overseas to cheaper competitors, its a free market. I also have no qualms with using freelancers without expanding to become a 'real' company as Juraj would put it. I dont even consider myself a company really, Im a freelancer who pulls in help from a network of other freelancers. I am very open with my clients about this. Its a business model I like.

Do my freelancers like working on my projects? Yes, they certainly do. For the most part they dictate the fee and the payment terms and get regular work. None of the parties involved are getting short-changed.

 

How do you handle quality control? It seems like a new client comes to you because they like the work on your website and then you tell them someone else is going to do it? Can your subs re-produce your style which I imagine you've tried to make unique?

[Tommy L]

I use freelancers for the specific task they are best suited, not complete jobs. I only once subbed out a complete job and the client was unhappy so I ended up doing the job over.

[Scott Schroeder]

It's no different than the company I work for hiring a new CG artist. We have a style so we look for people that have the talent and knowledge to work within our pipeline and maybe even bring fresh life into our projects. The depressing part is getting 100 resumes and only having maybe one standout person.

 

Having been in contact with Tom over working with him on jobs, I can say he has all his ducks in a row and knows exactly what he wants you to do. You know what is being asked of you and you feel 100% comfortable working within his system. I never once felt like I was being bamboozled into working for peanuts by a power hungry CG dictator.