jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I am currently looking at two laptops. One is the MSI GT60 0NF-612US and one is a Dell Precision M4800. They are comparably priced (about $1500) with no upgrades and both are close to what I'm looking for but they are hard to compare for a laymen like me. The MSI has 3rd gen i7-3630QM with a Quadro K1000M and comes with 12 GB of RAM and 750 GB HDD. The Dell has 4th gen i7-4800MQ with FirePro M5100 and only has 8 GB RAM and 500 GB SSHD. I'm a little unsure about how the Quadro stacks up against the FirePro, how the 3rd gen vs 4th gen i7 compare and if a SSHD is all that much better than a HDD? I will be using applications like AutoCAD, Revit, 3d Max, the adobe suite, Rhino and will be doing rendering as well. These models are right in the price range I'm looking for so if anyone has any advice or has any experience with any of these models or the hardware therein I would be extremely appreciative. I also looked at the Lenovo thinkpad w540 and while it has a lot of the specs I'm really looking for and it has good reviews as far as performance I also read a lot of reviews from consumers who were really unhappy with it. So if anyone has a thinkpad I would be interested in hearing from them also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonstewart Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I wouldn't discredit the "gaming" notebooks. I think you get a lot more for your money over the "workstation" notebooks. MSI GT70 Dominator-895 (http://www.msimobile.com/level3_productpage.aspx?cid=6&id=454) looks to be a great notebook. Same processor as the Dell you mentioned with a gtx870m. Yes it is a gaming card but depending on the software they can hold their own or perform better. I have a MSI GT780DX I bought probably 4 years or so ago that I used for a long time as a workstation. I use Revit and 3DS Max as well as the Adobe Master Collection (CS5) and it was flawless. Eventually I decided that I couldn't get the rendering performance I wanted from it anymore so I upgraded to a desktop (also with a gaming card) and it is great also. The Dominator I linked is $100 under budget (on newegg), use that money to get yourself a Samsung 840 Evo 250gb SSD for your OS/application drive and use the included 1tb drive for storage (dont forget to backup). The two computers you listed are both 15" screens, trust me you want the 17" screen. These programs were designed for desktops and screen size is necessary to be able to work effectively. Even with the 17.3" screen on my MSI I am much more comfortable working on a 22"+ desktop monitor. Unfortunately I dont know much about the workstation cards, hopefully someone else can chime in on the differences for your application but I have never had an issue with my gaming cards on all the software you mentioned minus Rhino. All of our computers at work (4 in total) have gaming cards in them also and we use Revit all day every day and have never had a problem. I hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amen Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Hi, I would go for a gamer graphics card. I am lookig at three different laptops right now: http://forum.notebookreview.com/msi/742589-msi-gs60-ghost-ghost-pro-thread.html with the 870m 3gb. http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/gigabyte-p35w-v2-review-1242150/review has a dvd rom an a 870m with 6gb. or if you want to wait a little: http://www.slashgear.com/aorus-x3-gaming-laptop-promises-not-to-weigh-you-down-02331444/ I think all have different displays to chose from. They are light and very powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I opted for Acer Aspire V3-771G 16gb http://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-Aspire-V3-771G-17-3-inch-Laptop/dp/B00CFHPGCS Bought mainly due to the RAM and screen size / resolution. It was hard to find 16gb RAM without going way over my budget, but this laptop came in at what I wanted to spend. It's a very capable laptop, I use it when working from home or elsewhere, and it always works perfectly. An SSD as the primary drive would be nice, but not essential though. Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Thanks for the replies guys. I was debating for a long time also whether I should just save a little money and go for a gaming laptop and I thought I had decided that I wanted to really go for the professional card but now you all have me thinking again about it. I was impressed with some of the ASUS rigs that I was seeing but suddenly a bunch of them disappeared. I'm just worried my rendering ability will severely compromised. Ok so I'm going to delve back into researching the gaming rigs but I've read so many times that the professional cards just totally outperform the Geforces. Still would like anyone to chime in about the professional rigs I mentioned above. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm just worried my rendering ability will severely compromised. What do you mean by this? CPU and RAM are the most important things when it comes to rendering. I wouldn't even look at a laptop without atleast 16 gb RAM. I've read so many times that the professional cards just totally outperform the Geforces. Still would like anyone to chime in about the professional rigs I mentioned above. I think you'll find many users will use gaming GPU cards, mainly down to price. I use Geforce in both my laptop and desktop and don't have any trouble with them with regards to Max. Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Dean - I was thinking about how some of the newer rendering engines are beginning to use GPU's as well as CPU's. Is there a particular GeForce which performs better than others or is it just go for the best you can get with your money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm not a massive hardware nerd, I know little about the market, I only tend to read up on what I need and when! Don't take this the wrong way, but what is your experience of rendering? Most professionals are CPU based for rendering, as GPU is still very expensive and a lot of the larger renderers don't fully support GPU yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I'm not a huge hardware nerd at all either. For rendering I've mainly used Vray for Rhino and Revit's internal renderer with a lot of photoshop afterwards. I currently have a Dell Precision M4500 with 8 GB RAM and a Quadro FX 880M. It does ok with vray renders and takes for ever with revit rendering. Granted, I still haven't had a chance to get into 3d Max and use it for rendering. I only rendered with Revit out of necessity not because I really wanted to. This computer is 4 years old and struggles immensely with just basic use of Revit. I get your point though that I should be more worried about processor and RAM for rendering. I'm am worried about GeForces ability to handle Revit though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 The main question you need to ask is will an expensive GPU make any difference to Revit or Vray? I don't know revit at all, so can't really help there, although I would hazard a guess that slow render times might be down to the standard renderer in Revit, rather than hardware alone. It also depends on what you call slow!! When you use Vray, do you use RT, or just the standard Vray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonstewart Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Like I said in post #2, we have "gaming" level cards in all our workstations at work and in my MSI laptop and all of them handle Revit fine. Some of our projects get a bit heavy and I have never had a problem. All of them work fine in max also, basically the only use for the GPU in max if you aren't using a Real Time Renderer is to display the viewports. Otherwise the CPU/Ram is handling the rendering. Rendering in Revit is just slow, that is why I origionally moved to rendering in Max. The settings are very basic and there is no "optomization" to speak of but it spits out a reasonably "good" as in "not overly noisy" result for people who dont have time to learn something like Max with Vray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Well I'm happy to hear that the GeForce cards work well with Revit, as I will be working with that a lot. And I totally agree that rendering with Revit is not ideal in the least. I'm really looking forward to learning some Max for rendering. I've found a pretty damn good Sager at around $1300: http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=product_customed&model_name=NP8258 I don't know a lot about the gaming GPU's but the GTX 860M seems pretty nice at 4GB. Also for only $35 bucks I could bump up to a i7-4810MQ. Anyone have any thoughts on Sagers? I'm getting pretty tempted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Posted a response on here a few hours ago but it didn't show up. So I'll sum up: good to hear that Revit works well with these cards, Revit rendering sucks but had to do because I'm still not versed in Max though I'm aiming to change that. Currently, looking at a Sager NP8258. It looks really promising. Wondering though if anyone has any experience the GTX 860M card? Is it overkill or just right? Does anyone have experience with Sager builds? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonstewart Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I would think the 860m would be fine, my MSI has a 570m and it works perfectly fine so I would think a much newer card would work well. I would aim for at least a 2gb card, 1.5gb wouldnt be horrible but its better to have more and not need it than have less than you need. Sager is supposed to make a good product, I am obviously partial to MSI since that is what I chose but Sager was on the list when I was shopping. I still would advise you to look at 17"+ screens, 15.6" is just too small to work when you have toolbars down the sides...Bigger is better here. I started rendering with Revit, then went to max but left basically all the materials in from Revit. You can do that if you stick with Mental Ray but IDK I never had very good luck with MR and it was always a PITA to tune out all the GI noise and stuff. That is when I switched to Vray and I will probably stick with that for a long time. That of course requires you to redo/adjust all your materials but the speed/results are great once you get the hang of it. There is nothing really "wrong" with rendering with revit but you just have very little control and it takes forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Posts aren't posting for some reason. Again: I've been using a 15" for 4 years and I've gotten used to it. I almost always have a monitor when I'm working. I like the portability of a 15" to go to jobs and meet with clients. A 17" just seems like it would be like carrying around a tank or something. Ideally, I would have a decent laptop for mobility and a monster desktop rig but that just isn't in the cash cards now and I won't always be freelancing like I am now. Do you have an SSD? I'm thinking that it is definitely worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonstewart Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yea I used mine for a while without and then added it later. It is most definitely worth it. You dont need much storage 250gb seems to be the most popular size, that will get your windows on there and all of your most used software then just use the standard hard drive for storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Ugh. Now I'm back in $1500 range when I up to 16 GB RAM and a 250 SSD Drive. I guess that is just the cost of business at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Another quick question: I think I found the right laptop and was wondering where people are buying from these days days? I've been looking at xotic pc but I know there is gentech and AVA. I'm going the Sager route so can I buy directly from them. What do you all recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Ugh. Now I'm back in $1500 range when I up to 16 GB RAM and a 250 SSD Drive. I guess that is just the cost of business at the moment. I know it doesn't sound nice, but it's not worth buying laptop bellow this price. 1500-2000 dollars is just right price for well performing and good-build laptop. 16GB and 256GB SSD is must, there is no way around it or doing without it. If it's mobile 'workstation' for you, you would curse without. You have to count with the laptop for next 3 years, so the price isn't that horrible. My personal opinion is, that while I am big proponent of building fully custom desktop PCs, I don't hold that opinion when it comes to laptops, where mainstream brands simply provide better package, slimmer and nicer designed body, often better though-out cooling, than "built it yourself" brands like Clevo/Sager. Dell, MSI, and Asus are brands that produce pretty good products on laptop field for past 1-2 years imho. Regarding "pro" cards vs mainstream, you have to take it very heavy grain of salt. There still is some difference in desktops, mostly under certain CAD apps, rather than CGI oriented ones (check benchmarks on Dimitris's website, most knowledgeable guy on here), but in laptop, both are stripped versions of its desktop counterparts, and pro cards (like Quadro k1100m,etc.) are quite low performance. So even the average mobile geforce like 765m (the highest model you can get in "slim" body) will perform rather very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Thanks for the response Juraj. You're right about the price and it being worth it. I would be so pissed in a year if I feel like I have to start looking into laptops. I'm disappointed in hearing your thoughts on the Sagers though. I had read pretty good things about them especially there ease of being able to swap out components later especially the processor because they aren't soldered into the motherboard and I also heard they were good for cooling. The price is just so damn right with them especially the one I just found. I can't afford a Dell but I will look into ASUS and MSI more closely. A lot of the newer laptops out by these brands all have GTX 860-880M series which are pretty new. You have any experience with them? Thanks again for the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 A lot of the newer laptops out by these brands all have GTX 860-880M series which are pretty new. You have any experience with them? Thanks again for the responses. Pretty nice revision, here are some benchmarks : http://www.cnet.com/news/nvidias-new-gtx-800m-series-gpus-benchmarked/ In nutshell: middle class, which you are mostly probably going after, seems up to 30perc. more powerful then it's predecessor, ie.t 860M vs 760M, which is very nice. Battery life should be better too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yeah they seem like legit cards. Any thoughts on i7 MQ vs i7 HQ? MQ seem to be very slightly better. And I thought I read somewhere that the HQ is soldered in and can't be replaced. Looks like its between MSI and Sager. I'll do some more research. ASUS are bit more expensive. Maybe it comes down to who has the best warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 MQ is socketed therefore upgradeable or easy replaceable, although I think that would be the least of your worries with current units. HQ is soldered. Can't comment on warranty, that's very region specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftreitz Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 MQ is socketed therefore upgradeable or easy replaceable, although I think that would be the least of your worries with current units. HQ is soldered. Can't comment on warranty, that's very region specific. Okay so I'll bite. What's the issue with the current i7 units? The 4th gen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 None :- ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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