Freelance payment timescales.

[D C]

I've recently completed some work for a client that I'm still awaiting payment for.

 

The project was delivered on time then sent onto the client who then came back and stated 'his' client wanted to make changes, which I was fine with.

 

A month and a half has passed since then and these changes are yet to come through to my client, who states he can't pay me for the work I've done until 'his' client signs off the project (after the amends are made) and pay's him.

 

I appreciate there is a chain in regards to the cash flowing down to the parties involved, but is this usually the case? Should my client be paying me for the work I've done by now regardless as to whether he has been paid for the job or not? There are changes to be made, granted, but these are taking a great deal of time to come through and chasing this up doesn't seem to be a priority of my client (no matter how many times I remind him).

 

I'm trying hard not to nag and chase off future work so really I'm just looking for some advice on what to do and how to handle this going forward.

 

Thanks

Dan

[CJI]

Generally, and most will agree, you're contract is with your client. His client is a third party in the chain. An important one but not who you did the work for. When a job is finished he should pay you regardless. the fact that you have agreed to changes muddies the waters a bit as technically the job isn't over yet. This situation has come up for most of us at some point. I don't really know the best way around it. some say take a retainer up front before work commences to safeguard you against this type of thing but these can be difficult to get out of any client for a small freelancer.

 

Its an awkward one. other than patience i don't know what to suggest. There are underhanded tricks you hear of but none that will set you in a good light or retain a good relationship.

[heni30]

I think most clients are open to a retainer if it's a medium to large job. 30% would be reasonable. If it's a biggish job another payment 2/3 into the job is also reasonable. I find many architects pay when they get paid. I'm waiting for a payment now that's over 60 days due.

 

I have friends who say larger firms also tend to do this.

 

The contract should also state that a certain number of rounds of changes are included in the price; then assure your client that there will be no charge for changes after payment if they fall into the agreement parameters.

[maxgooday]

It is a tricky situation to be in! I think the best bet would be to talk to the client (being the first person that contacted you for the work) and outline your position and the fact that no further changes have been made to date and you need to be paid. I assume you produced an estimate/quote for the work so who ever's name is on the quote then they will be the payer.

 

If you have put the quote in the end clients name then it's even more complicated as you will have to wait to hear about the changes or ring them up and ask what is going on. At the end of the day; you produced the work, it was on time and if they are happy then they should pay up. If they are dragging their feet even after voicing your position then you can threaten interest on late payments, small claims court etc. I hope that helps.

[Zdravko Barisic]

I am very sad, that non-paying deasise is spreading around the world, like cancer!

The chance, you will not be paid, is about 5%, but thats not the point, because the chance for you/ us, to loose your nerves, and have no good night sleeping is 95%!!! And thats the point!

What so genious I should say? Nothing, but we all know already, but even that, I still, personally make same mistakes, even nowadays....

So, I wish to all non-paying guys to burn in hell, at least the same time, we've been waiting our money! At least!

....

And those "business-chain-maker-guys" are mu "favorite" kind of!!!

[hanselmoniz]

You should take 50% upfront for small jobs and 40% for larger ones. If the end client wants a visualisation he knows it will come at a price and to engage anything a advance is required.

[Scott Schroeder]

I am very sad, that non-paying deasise is spreading around the world, like cancer!

The chance, you will not be paid, is about 5%, but thats not the point, because the chance for you/ us, to loose your nerves, and have no good night sleeping is 95%!!! And thats the point!

What so genious I should say? Nothing, but we all know already, but even that, I still, personally make same mistakes, even nowadays....

So, I wish to all non-paying guys to burn in hell, at least the same time, we've been waiting our money! At least!

....

And those "business-chain-maker-guys" are mu "favorite" kind of!!!

 

Dude, relax. The client themselves hasn't been paid yet and I'm sure they are in the same boat the poster is in trying to get their money so they can pay out their bills.

 

Welcome to the world of rendering and being 15th in line to get paid. It sounds like the client isn't paying out of being a jerkwad, they are not paying because they don't have the money to pay out yet. You do know you can't get blood out of a turnip right? Making threats in this case will lead to you being blacklisted for work within a 500 mile radius. I'm sure your client is just as unhappy as you are about lack of payment.

 

Tread very very carefully and don't overreact by declaring all out war. Most payment terms, unless in stated in very clear words in the contract, fall under a 90 day grace period from date of delivery.

[RyderSK]

Should my client be paying me for the work I've done by now regardless as to whether he has been paid for the job or not?

 

I believe absolutely yes. As long as you had proper contract between you and him.

 

Over past 2 years I used heavily modified proposal from 3DATS http://www.cgarchitect.com/2012/02/the-visualization-insider .

Just this one, I found it to be excellent base, it's professional enough and require little effort to bring up to date, modify etc.

 

 

It let's you outline all the conditions, maximal amount of agreed changes, renegotiation conditions ("contract killer"= can we try this ? Sure, but pay first and negotiate additional money for changes), time required for client to complete reviews, timeframe, deadlines and payment conditions.

 

I know I've seen enough people on this forum enforce the policy of no final pictures until final payment is made. It's not very common with clients I worked with, with bigger companies having very strict 30day payment schedule that I can do little about. But every single one of them was comfortable with 30perc. deposit (could be 50perc. in US if you're lucky I guess), 30perc. interim payment if the project is longer than month or and 40perc. after completment, by default I give 7 days, and 30 to companies where I can't.

 

The deposit payment is key to everything and assures safety from complete loss. I would never start a job without deposit (and contract).

 

Edit: Scott wrote interesting message while I typed. He's sort of right, as always, but if you have contract with your client, and not end client, it's still his full responsibility to pay you on time, even if he won't get paid by his client. Of course, no one would be happy about such situation, but well worth clients will accept this risk. But for this very reason, I avoid agencies and any form of sub-contracting. I don't find the risk (and more complicated communication, often in indirect form) to be worth it.

Edited July 23, 2014 by RyderSK

[M V]

Just got paid after a YEAR of harassing to get a client to pay me and he only did so because he needs more rendering work. Get at least a decent deposit and watermark all finals until you get paid in FULL!

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by valerostudio

[Scott Schroeder]

It just depends on how the middle client has their accounts payable set up. If they are paying out of XYZ's job account and that hasn't been fulfilled, then the money just simply isn't there. They may not be able to pull cash from another account to pay you right away. They have a responsibility to fulfill their in-house operating costs, then only after those have been fulfilled do contract employees get paid. Should they pay you regardless? 100% of course. But this is not always the case.

 

As Juraj mentioned, this is one of the biggest pitfalls when you don't work directly with the lead firm. If the lead firm is being aloof with everything, that just falls right down the line onto the last person in line which is usually the renderer.

 

The client is being very forward with you stating that he hasn't gotten paid either and he can't pay you until he first gets paid. He has told you exactly what is going on. It is far better than the wishy washy I'm not going to tell you anything client that just simply disappears before the final payment.

[Ernest Burden III]

The client is being very forward with you stating that he hasn't gotten paid either and he can't pay you until he first gets paid. He has told you exactly what is going on...

 

Maybe.

 

Perhaps the issue is that the builder/developer/property owner asked the designer for certain work or revisions and he refused without being paid more himself. Now his client says no, and he tells you the end guy is holding back progress.

 

It could also happen that the designer DID get paid but used the money for something else (though I doubt they are that sloppy and lie very often, probably a very rare case in practice).

 

In the example of this thread, it sounds like the renderer delivered his product. Changes are new work, usually. So the client should, especially after this delay, pay for the completed, delivered work. Then if and when the end client says what else he needs there can be a discussion about executing it, including that the renderer, who felt respected and appreciated, could do minor additional work without charge. Or for a small fee.

 

I once had a client tell me he wouldn't pay for a picture because his client rejected it, after he accepted it as good. In the end, the reason turned out to be that the end client ordered a view of the north side, but the designer decided instead to hire me to draw the south side. And yes I eventually got paid, but with some threats and unpleasantness.

[Corey Beaulieu]

The project was delivered on time then sent onto the client who then came back and stated 'his' client wanted to make changes, which I was fine with.

 

A month and a half has passed since then and these changes are yet to come through to my client, who states he can't pay me for the work I've done until 'his' client signs off the project (after the amends are made) and pay's him.

 

I feel like you have locked yourself into a position where it would be hard to get more money for the project, but for future reference you should have (in my opinion) replied: "no problem, however this is beyond our original scope of work and will have to become some sort of change order."

 

You can go hourly if it is a small change or have a bulk fee for a bigger change.

 

For clients who have little money to work with, this method can often cause the client to reduce the request or drop it altogether. It can also just create a more clear relationship with your clients that you are not just a person, but a business. Businesses have rates, fees, and overhead.

 

Debt is part of your burden as a business, but the show must go on. Take risk on payment when you perceive it as low and as others have suggested, take a larger down payment where you perceive the risk to be higher. Don't ever give up on being paid, but the sooner you move on to the next project the sooner some money will come in. It takes a bit of lag before you get to a place where last months money can cover this months cost, but the only way to get there is to: Do Work. Build Relationships. Do More Work.

Edited July 24, 2014 by CoreyMBeaulieu
farmatting

[notamondayfan]

Best thing to do is to have something in your contract saying you will invoice every X days from the commencement of the project, and invoice them the % of the project completed.

 

But to be honest, when projects grind to a halt, I find there's no point stressing over it. Try and see if an invoice can be submitted, but if not just continue with some other paid work. The only problem is if cash flow becomes a hard to manage, but that's half the battle with what we do anyway!