Building my first render node - help appreciated

[hkahk]

Hi there,

 

I'm about to order the parts for my first render node :-)

 

 

I'll take a i7 4930k although it's a bit of a bad moment to buy one but my mb of my current workstation died a couple of weeks ago and I quickly had to get a new one.

As it still had warranty I now got a brand new x79-deluxe. I'll put that back into m workstation and take the p9X79 I just bought for the node. So I have to go with a 2011.

 

Anyway here is what I have in mind.

MB: p9x79

CPU: i7 4930k

Cooler: Cryorig R1 Ultimate

RAM: Corsair Vengeance LP 16GB (I have the same but 32GB in my Workstation)

GPU: don't really know. Maybe a GIGABYTE Geforce GTX 660 OC 2GB

HDD: SSD Samsung Evo 250GB

Case: Fractal Define R4

PSU: no idea - any suggestions?

OS: Windows 8.1

 

Thanks for feedback

[jasonstewart]

If you wont be using it as a workstation at all and it will be strictly a node I would go 120gb SSD save a few bucks and go way cheap on the GPU. No need for a 660 for a node that will hardly ever have a screen attached unless you want to play with some GPU engines then I would go more expensive. 750ti performs almost as well as 660 and is much cheaper, can go even cheaper just need it so the Mobo will boot.

[stefanostrika]

I've 4 nodes 4930k based, very happy with them. Even with the 5820k on the market the 4930k still make sense because currently both DDR4 and x99 motherboard are pricier.

I've used a 20$ GPU(asus radeon 5450 1GB), work flawlessly. Agree with Jason Stewart about the SSD, 120GB is more than enough.

[hkahk]

Thank you both for your replies.

I've chosen the bigger SSD and a little better GPU as this node will be needed occasionally for some Photoshop work.

 

Any suggestions for the PSU?

[Sketchrender]

Hi

 

Can I ask were they expensive to build, I use old precision 690's to render with, and would like to invest in new ones.

 

Thank you .

[numerobis]

Looks good so far. I would go with Haswell-E (upgradable to Broadwell-E, DDR4, M.2 PCIe 4x SSD, better/newer chipset, ...) today - building a new workstation and using the "old" workstation as node. I think you could easily sell your brand new board. But this is my opinion.

 

GPU: don't really know. Maybe a GIGABYTE Geforce GTX 660 OC 2GB

...

PSU: no idea - any suggestions?

 

For Photoshop an AMD GPU could be the better choice today. Since Apple is using AMD Adobe is pushing OpenCL and even the smaller AMD cards look quite good compared to nvidia

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/workstation-graphics-2013/39-BasemarkCL-Image-Processing-Blur,3315.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/workstation-graphics-2013/40-BasemarkCL-Image-Processing-Noise-Reduction,3316.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/workstation-graphics-2013/41-BasemarkCL-Image-Processing-Surface-Smoothing,3317.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/workstation-graphics-2013/42-BasemarkCL-Image-Processing-Sharpening,3318.html

And this is only a standard OpenCL image processing benchmark (Rightware Basemark CL), i think based on the cooperation of Adobe and AMD Photoshop (CC) could be even more optimized, but i haven't found any newer comparisons.

 

Concering the PSU i'm normally using Seasonic exclusively for almost 10 years now and out of maybe 15 PSUs i had only one that had to replaced - and this one doesn't fail, but made a ticking sound after 1-2 years. I returned it and got a new one after only a few days. But lately i also used some be quiet! PSUs for CAD builds since they got some very good reviews in especially in terms of noise (Straight Power E9).

If noise is an issue for you i would look for a semi-passive PSU choosing a size that lets you stay in the passive range under full load.

 

Hi

 

Can I ask were they expensive to build, I use old precision 690's to render with, and would like to invest in new ones.

 

Thank you .

 

I would look for some Haswell-E i7 5820K, almost the same performance at stock like the 4930K ( http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph8426/67035.png ) and faster at the same clock speed, but new socket and maybe even cheaper, depending on the amount of RAM that is needed.

[stefanostrika]

Hi

Can I ask were they expensive to build

No. You can build an I7 4930k node for about 1000$, probably the same price for a 5820K(but if you need more than 16GB RAM it will be pricier for now).

[hkahk]

Hi numerobis,

 

thank you very much for your detailed reply!

I'll have to check the costs of a new Haswell-E System vs the Ivy.

 

Is 650w to 700W too big?

What about those:

Cooler Master V650 Semi Modular € 94,90

Seasonic S12G-650 € 99,90

be quiet! System Power 7 700W € 86,90

 

Regarding GPU the AMD Radeon R9 270X seems to be a good choise for the price.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Intel has set the prices for the 5xxx CPUs in very competitive (to its own, older parts).

 

 

The 5820K will become more and more competitive as prices for DDR4 and X99 boards drop a tad, but already I think it makes little sense to go 4930K over the newer 5820K.

 

 

The s2011-3 CPU will be in the same speed class, perhaps a tad faster even.

DDR4 is more expensive, but you can get 32GB DDR4-2400 around $150 more than you would DDR3-2133/2400.

At the same time the 5820K is $180-200 cheaper than the 4930K, so along with a tad more expensive X99 boards vs. the older "value" X79, you would break even.

 

 

Right now there is limited supply for boards, thus vendors keep the prices up for the most part but more and more models will be released and the market will normalize.

[numerobis]

Is 650w to 700W too big?

What about those:

Cooler Master V650 Semi Modular € 94,90

Seasonic S12G-650 € 99,90

be quiet! System Power 7 700W € 86,90

 

Are you asking for the workstation or the node? And will you overclock in the future? For the workstation with a bigger video card and incl. overclocking i would say ~750-800W.

For the node with a small gpu and without overclocking i think 500W should be enough... so something within this range But you can calculate it yourself: http://enermax.outervision.com/

For a silent system i would add a bit more headroom, because in semi-passive PSUs the fan starts at a defined load, maybe 50-60%. So i normally try to keep the max load in this range. I would look for reviews that show the fan curve (if you plan to build a silent system).

 

I think the Seasonic S12 series is quite good for the price but the "G" (gold) is ~20% more expensive than the older bronze S12II/M12II (i currently have 11 S12II and M12II running in my nodes) and they are not semi passive - and only the M-series has cable management:

http://anandtech.com/show/7761/seasonic-s12g-650w-power-supply-review/4

 

For semi-passive models from seasonic you have to look for the X-series (7 years warranty) http://geizhals.de/sea-sonic-x-series-x-650-km3-650w-atx-2-3-ss-650km3-semi-passiv-a951072.html

http://www.tomshardware.de/Gaming-Netzteile-80PLUS-Gold-Effizient,testberichte-241350-10.html

 

The Cooler Master V650 should be a Seasonic: http://www.tomshardware.de/netzteil-oem-hersteller,testberichte-240604-5.html

But i'm not sure about that because the values are not in the same league: http://www.hardwaremax.net/reviews/netzteile/815-test-drei-goldnetzteile-von-cooler-master-und-seasonic.html?showall=&start=7

 

The be quiet! System Power 7 is for system builders, has only 3 years warranty and is only "silver" certified. I can't find any tests.

A Dark Power or Straight Power should be better.

 

Regarding GPU the AMD Radeon R9 270X seems to be a good choise for the price.

Yes, i think the 270X or even the 260X could be nice - not sure if there are passive cooled models, but i don't think so.

Edited September 5, 2014 by numerobis

[Dimitris Tolios]

550-600W are more than enough for s1150/s1155 i7s - even overclocked ones, given you don't add an overclocked beasty GPU - something like 280/280X or GK110.

 

 

Stock 6C i7 s2011/s2011-3 should also be handled fine.

 

 

You should go more than 600W if you plan on overclocking those, as the CPU alone can pull upwards of 250-300 real Watts. That's a lot. Add 200~250 for a strong GPU, and that's already 100% load for the 500-550. Not good.

 

 

Quality units can handle 100% rated load, even 24/7, but I would not push my lack.

Thus we oversize our PSUs when we know we will need it.

Overspending on a PSU now with the "dream" of overclocking in the future is not wise: PSU's weakest link are capacitors, and those "age". Buying an expensive PSU to use @ full capacity few years from now, is not good.

Buy what you need now, upgrade it if you plan adding on it few years from now. Companies know why they warranty their products up to 5 years usually...that's what even the best consumer caps are rated for 5-7 years.

 

 

As for passive vs. active - I am not a big "passive" proponent.

It's actually more important for "passive" components to have proper airflow around and through them - no magic in heat dissipation, so you just move the responsibility for that from the device (PSU/GPU etc) to a case or some other type of fan/air mover. Put a "passive" component in a case / cupboard / enclosure with no airflow, and it will die. Period.

 

 

Use low rpm, low noise fans, and be safe. Gigabyte / MSI GPUs are usually pretty good at keeping temps and noise down.

[hkahk]

Are you asking for the workstation or the node? And will you overclock in the future? For the workstation with a bigger video card and incl. overclocking i would say ~750-800W.

For the node with a small gpu and without overclocking i think 500W should be enough... so something within this range But you can calculate it yourself: http://enermax.outervision.com/

For a silent system i would add a bit more headroom, because in semi-passive PSUs the fan starts at a defined load, maybe 50-60%. So i normally try to keep the max load in this range. I would look for reviews that show the fan curve (if you plan to build a silent system).

 

I think the Seasonic S12 series is quite good for the price but the "G" (gold) is ~20% more expensive than the older bronze S12II/M12II (i currently have 11 S12II and M12II running in my nodes) and they are not semi passive - and only the M-series has cable management:

http://anandtech.com/show/7761/seasonic-s12g-650w-power-supply-review/4

 

For semi-passive models from seasonic you have to look for the X-series (7 years warranty) http://geizhals.de/sea-sonic-x-series-x-650-km3-650w-atx-2-3-ss-650km3-semi-passiv-a951072.html

http://www.tomshardware.de/Gaming-Netzteile-80PLUS-Gold-Effizient,testberichte-241350-10.html

 

The Cooler Master V650 should be a Seasonic: http://www.tomshardware.de/netzteil-oem-hersteller,testberichte-240604-5.html

But i'm not sure about that because the values are not in the same league: http://www.hardwaremax.net/reviews/netzteile/815-test-drei-goldnetzteile-von-cooler-master-und-seasonic.html?showall=&start=7

 

The be quiet! System Power 7 is for system builders, has only 3 years warranty and is only "silver" certified. I can't find any tests.

A Dark Power or Straight Power should be better.

 

 

Yes, i think the 270X or even the 260X could be nice - not sure if there are passive cooled models, but i don't think so.

 

 

Thanks numerobis,

that's very helpful information!

[hkahk]

550-600W are more than enough for s1150/s1155 i7s - even overclocked ones, given you don't add an overclocked beasty GPU - something like 280/280X or GK110.

 

 

Stock 6C i7 s2011/s2011-3 should also be handled fine.

 

 

You should go more than 600W if you plan on overclocking those, as the CPU alone can pull upwards of 250-300 real Watts. That's a lot. Add 200~250 for a strong GPU, and that's already 100% load for the 500-550. Not good.

 

 

Quality units can handle 100% rated load, even 24/7, but I would not push my lack.

Thus we oversize our PSUs when we know we will need it.

Overspending on a PSU now with the "dream" of overclocking in the future is not wise: PSU's weakest link are capacitors, and those "age". Buying an expensive PSU to use @ full capacity few years from now, is not good.

Buy what you need now, upgrade it if you plan adding on it few years from now. Companies know why they warranty their products up to 5 years usually...that's what even the best consumer caps are rated for 5-7 years.

 

 

As for passive vs. active - I am not a big "passive" proponent.

It's actually more important for "passive" components to have proper airflow around and through them - no magic in heat dissipation, so you just move the responsibility for that from the device (PSU/GPU etc) to a case or some other type of fan/air mover. Put a "passive" component in a case / cupboard / enclosure with no airflow, and it will die. Period.

 

 

Use low rpm, low noise fans, and be safe. Gigabyte / MSI GPUs are usually pretty good at keeping temps and noise down.

 

 

Thanks Dimitris for taking your time to answer in detail!

That's very helpful as well.

I'll have to think about and come back with a new list of components ;-)

[hkahk]

Hi there,

 

I did some calculation over the weekend an maybe I should really go for the new haswell-e.

 

Which kind of RAM would you guys suggest?

Is 2400 good enough or should I go higher with the new DDR-4?

 

Is this one any good 16GB Crucial Ballistix Sport DDR4-2400 DIMM CL16 Dual Kit?

Or better this here: Corsair DIMM DDR4-2666 (not available at 8GB yet)

 

Thanks!

[Dimitris Tolios]

I would doubt you would see sizeable differences going from DDR4-2133 to DDR4-2400, furthermore from 2400 to 2666.

RAM is far from the bottleneck in almost any application we have these days.

 

 

But of course it depends on how sizeable the price difference is for each "upgrade". I think here in the US the 2133 to 2400 "jump" is pretty cheap atm: newegg has 16GB of DDR4-2133 Crucial for $203, and DDR4-2400 for $225 (out of stock, but that's the price) from the same manufacturer. Those are kits with 2x8GB sticks.

 

 

By comparison the Corsair DDR3-2666 4x4GB kits are $375 - available directly through corsair only atm.

 

 

Pardon me, I do respect corsair and I like/honor some of their products with my cash, but this would not be the case.

 

 

DDR4-2133 -> DDR4-2400 = 12.5% theoretical speed bump for a real 11% price hike.

DDR4-2400 -> DDR4-2666 (corsair) = 11.% theoretical speed bump (way more theoretical than the above in reality) for a painfully real 66% price hike.

 

 

Not exactly a wise proposition. If you have the cash to spare, think of it this way:

If I have $750 just for the 32GB of 2666 Corsair RAM of a 5820K Node with a Gigabyte GA-X99-UDH4 (around $1400 total in the US atm), I certainly have $1700 for a 5960X + 32GB DDR4-2400 and the same board, or $1650 for a set with 32GB of 2133, either of which will outperform the 5820K solution as rendering nodes.

 

 

If the system would double its duties as a workstation, and O/C would not be an option, the the waters get muddier, as the 5960X is not that highly clocked, and will be falling behind the 5820K in lots of stuff. Again, DDR4-2666 over 2400 or even 2133 will be the least important contributor to overall system performance.

 

 

If OC was an option, than care should be taken to verify that DDR4-2666 is even attainable: the more stressed a CPU is, the less likely the embedded RAM controller can handle RAM OC. And for all intents and purposes, DDR4-2666 is "overclocking" for the Haswell-E RAM controller that is rated for DDR4-2133. So you might end up spending a crap load of cash on something that cannot be used even its rated frequency if you try to squeeze all the performance you can out of the CPU (again, something with way more tangible returns than having what appears to be faster than needed/can be utilized RAM). Initial OC testing with the 5960X, shows that it doesn't like high ram clocks when itself is pushed close to 4.5GHz. As newer BIOSes come out, boards might allow for a better result, but the diminishing returns of higher RAM speeds are kinda inherit to the Intel Core architecture atm.

Edited September 8, 2014 by dtolios

[hkahk]

Hi there,

 

ok I decided to go with the new Haswell-E ;-)

But I'll keep my current i7 4930k as the main workstation until DDR4 RAM becomes a bit cheaper.

That way I can start the new node with 16GB.

If I'm aible to sell my X79-deluxe for a good price it's even cheaper than buying another 4930k node.

 

 

so here is what I have chosen so far:

 

MB: Asus X99-A (or is it better to go with the Deluxe?)

CPU: i7 5820k (the 5930k does not make sense I think and the 5960x would be nice but is just far too expensive)

RAM: 16GB whaterver is available, probably some crucial 2400

PSU: Coolermaster V650

GPU: very cheap

SSD: Samsung Evo 120 GB

Cooler: Noctua NH-15

Case: Fractal Define R4

 

It's mainly the MB I'm not sure which one to take or maybe even another brand?

 

Thanks again guys!

[Dimitris Tolios]

Looks solid.

I don't see any reason to go for the Deluxe, even for a workstation.

Really now, unless you are after extreme overclocking (which most multicore chips will struggle to achieve) I would not bother with anything better than the X99-A even for a workstation. There is simply nothing of real value added in my opinion. Not performance, not stability - given you are picking a "tested" brand, as the models are in general too new at this point to have a track record.

 

 

Asus and Gigabyte are almost consistently very good and reliable performers.

 

 

Some features like Dual Gbit NICs (for data aggregation if you store things directly on a NAS) or extra Sata controllers etc are welcome - usually found in the Asus WS line, but you can add those with additional cards, usually featuring a combination of more options / lower cost / higher flexibility / transferability to another system.

 

 

It is not "wrong" to get expensive motherboards, the contrary, I just think most people getting them are downplaying the cheaper models based on price, not facts: "what I do is important, so I will spend more money to ensure I get the best". For intents and purposes you are with a X99-A in my humble opinion, but you are free to do whatever rocks your boat =)

 

 

Same for the case: Define R4 is nice and silent and all, but your system will have an efficient and very silent PSU, a massive, efficient and very silent CPU cooler that won't even spin up after the boot even @ 100% load in stock speeds (if it does, you haven't seated it properly / did the paste work properly) and no spinning drives. Trust me, it will be silent - not because of the case!

 

 

A half-decent midi would do just as good. A Coolermaster N400 for example.

[hkahk]

Hi Dimitris,

 

thanks for your feedback.

 

Well I just like the Fractal Design and as I'll see that thing everyday sitting in my office that's worth the extra money ;-)

But I'll probably go with the cheaper MB. Unless prices drop until I sold my X79-Deluxe.

 

I don't need Wireless atm.

 

And although I'll add some NAS soon I agree with you that it might be better to add that when needed.

 

Anyway thanks again!

[RyderSK]

Nice build there :- )

 

Yeah Deluxe is luxury, although for workstation (not the case here it seems) the dual-nic addition is quite welcome and from the prices of dual nic intel lan card (which seem to average 100 euros) it's also quite good price-wise compared to upgrading the board with such addition later.

 

While the system will be silent as Dimitris write, Define is such a nice topping and imho quite good deal for what you get (it includes 3 very decent 140mm fans). Everything can be more silent and more nicer to look at :- )

 

Dimitris, I have question: Does the early range of DD4 even bring anything on table since the timings are so high ? Doesn't that negate the slightly higher clock ? Not that we benefit much from fast ram anyway, but just theoretical comparison between current DDR3 and 4.

[Dimitris Tolios]

I don't have all the numbers to back it up, but from personal experience RAM speed advantages can be seen only with high CPU overclocks, and even then returns are diminishing - stock CPUs don't come close saturating DDR3-1866~2133 to see a notable difference going higher.

 

 

Issue in the case of 58xx-59xx is, that the internal RAM controller won't handle high RAM speeds when the CPU is overclocked heavily.

I had the same experience with my s1150 4770K Haswell chip - once you get to 4.5GHz or higher, even "native" DDR3-2400 speeds are becoming somewhat unstable, and you have to back RAM clocks down.

 

 

The fortunate thing is that adding 100-200MHz in the CPU, far outweighs dropping RAM clocks an equal amount - or more - so I would take this trade any day.

 

Certain metrics do favor low timings, so there might even be some cases getting lower results with DDR4, again, I doubt that will be a notable difference. RAM is just "faster than CPUs can use" already, so there is headroom.

 

 

In my mind, Haswell-E = Haswell for the most part, so even with the baseline DDR4-2133 you will be doing good.

DDR4-2400, at least from Crucial, is like 10% more expensive, so not a bad deal, but I would certainly refrain from dropping the serious cash "specialized" RAM vendors require for super-fast sticks.

 

The whole RAM industry is rubbing its hands with DDR4 - there was literally little to no reason for the switch - just a way to desaturate the DDR3 market as lack of demand was driving prices down - a 1 mm2 die of DDR3 costs as much as 1mm2 of DDR4 for the manufacturer.

 

 

Datacenters will love the lower power consumption as we are talking replacing millions of sticks, but for the average user getting 1-2W reduction per stick is nothing. The mobile market was already using DDR3L 1.3~1.35V, so again we are not really getting more than 10% reduction of a pretty small Wattage number, so companies advertising power savings as a benefit for the consumer market, is hugely overstating the facts. Plus we could see that just by lowering DDR3 manufacturing lithography below 30nm, but why would they retool their process for a technology they wanted dead for "other" reasons?

 

 

OK, APU/IGPs might get a notable boost, and faster and faster CPUs will eventually benefit from faster DDR4, but as the market sits, I don't see a benefit for really fast DDR4 - other of course than bragging rights.

[RyderSK]

The thing that interests me lies more here, as what I mean:

 

RAM access time is: ( CL / Frequency ) * 1000,

 

DDR3 Crucial 2400 Mhz CL 10 would fare as 4.1ns

DDR4 Crucial 2400 Mhz CL 16 would are as 6.7ns

 

But of course, not sure if it does any difference in practice, but shows the current line-up doesn't offer any benefit compared to current DDR3, except for lower voltage, and it's slower at higher price.

But since starting range for DDR3 was 1066MHz CL7 / 1333MHz CL8 I guess there is a room in next few years.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Exactly. Time will have to pass for us to see the real benefits of DDR4. Early adopters spending lots of money will pay for that R&D =)

I think Crucial Ballistic 2400 would be my spending ceiling if I was buying into s2011-3 that soon.

 

 

DDR3 latencies were horrible @ first, DDR2 was more mature and faster etc. Things changed, but took half a decade.