Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 30, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 30, 2014 1)Set monitor to AdobeRGB, calibrate that regime (I presume this is what you have done and where you are right now). Just to be sure there is no mis-information, can you clarify what you meant here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 30, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Absolutely agree with this. But what I meant by custom profile was simply calibrating option, where you can keep your monitor default intact, and simply take over one or few custom slots. So instead of messing with factory profile of your display you can always default to, you will keep you calibrated profile as another one bellow them. It's non-destructive and more flexible. If the display UI allows it of course. And obviously I am talking hardware color calibration, not messing with software side, where I also suggest both to ignore windows settings and graphic driver settings. I've never seen this before. You have any screenshots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Yes of course,moment, I guess I am really having a bit language/jargon issue. Here is screenshot of the feature, for example the top-range only Dells allows you to store 2 x LUT3D values: CAL1 and CAL2 but it only works with Dell Color Calibration Solution (DCCS), and DCCS only works with i1DisplayPro. CAL1 and CAL2 are just "User slots" for storing LUT3D calibrations so I don't need to adjust the factory sRGB/AdobeRGB profiles you see above. I presume most brand offer similar feature nowadays, including HP, which is why I asked him if he calibrated it using the Dream color suite. Sorry about the confusing writing, I lack your knowledge about subject overall so I am only trying to write A-to-Z tutorial solution. Edited October 30, 2014 by RyderSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 The monitor does have options like that. It was originally set to 'native' i then changed to adobe rgb. From there i plugged in the idisplay and followed the on screen instructions (manually setting rgb and luminance values) to achieve the specified target. I then let the iprofiler software run its course and at the end i saved the profile. The monitor is now using that profile that was saved. If i go back to the monitor menu again, the colour profile option is now set to 'user'. With regards to the custom textures all i meant was when i tweak and adjust the likes of arroway or cg textures to create my own textures. I was simply opening them, converting to adobe rgb, making my adjustments, then saving them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 30, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ahh ok, now I understand. Yes my NEC PA301W has the same thing. On board LUT storage is still pretty new and generally reserved for only the highest end displays. I generally use the display's native capabilities and calibrate from there. Even though the display won't have 100% aRGB coverage, they usually have a gamut outside of the aRGB colorspace that you will clamp when you calibrate from the aRGB preset. That having been said, I could see some benefit in doing this as non color managed apps will now at least be in a known device independent color space (aRGB), rather than the monitor's color space. And the loss of color is likely to be minimal. There could possibly be some shift still, but depends on the colors. If you send me your ICC profile I can post a 3D visualization of it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'll have to send it tomorrow now Jeff, it's on my work PC. I definitely need to read up more on the subject though. A lot of stuff that's being discussed is out of my realm of knowledge and perhaps I'm missing the point on a few things or have misunderstood some stuff at my end. I don't suppose you have a PDF of your book chapter do you Jeff? I know they used to have some low res versions of the books on the 3dats site but have no idea where they are now. I do have the book, but I'd like to be able to refer back to that chapter without carrying that huge book around with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 30, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 30, 2014 I don't suppose you have a PDF of your book chapter do you Jeff? I know they used to have some low res versions of the books on the 3dats site but have no idea where they are now. I do have the book, but I'd like to be able to refer back to that chapter without carrying that huge book around with me. You can buy the ebook version here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/233521 (non-tablet versions) or a Tablet version here: http://www.amazon.com/Chapter-Management-Architectural-Visualization-Advanced-ebook/dp/B009Z0XJ54/ref=sr_1_21?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1414705622&sr=1-21&keywords=3ds+Max+2010+Architectural+Visualization+%28Advanced+to+Expert%29 both are under $3 for the chapter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Awesome cheers Jeff, didn't realise they were available like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Hi Jeff Here is the profileHP Z24x.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 31, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2014 OK here is a 2D plot and two 3D plots. In the 3D plots the wireframe volume represents AdobeRGB and the solid volume your profiled display. As you can see even though you clamped the display to AdobeRGB, the display profile is still way outside. So depending on the image you could still see color shift between color managed and non color managed apps in the saturated reds, blues and some greens. There is also a pretty big shift in luminosity of the saturated greens as well. I've calibrated displays which have been clamped before to a known colorspace and it's never been this far out, so either the accuracy of the built in AdobeRGB profile is pretty far off or somehow because that display has onboard LUT, it's written it's own LUT and is using that instead of AdobeRGB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 So does this mean I've possibly done something wrong at my end? What would you recommend my starting setup be then? Should i just restore factory settings on the monitor and go from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 31, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2014 I would be curious to see how the profile changes when you are not using a clamped color space (ie. native gamut). As long as you're using color managed apps, it should not matter, but if it's going to produce a profile that is this far off of AdobeRGB, you may as well use the full gamut of the display. I have a feeling though that profiled to the native gamut is going to produce the exact same results. I think it's bypassing or ignoring the AdobeRGB setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ok I'll give it another go, but some of this terminology is going over my head a little. I'm possibly even missing the point of why I'm creating the profile using the claibration software in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 31, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ok sorry. Let me clarify. The point of calibrating a display is to bring it into a known state. Everything in color management works on the basis that everything is in a known state or in a standardized color space. So you calibrate to bring a display to Gamma 2.2 D65 for example. In order to translate color between color spaces/woking spaces it needs a definition of that color space. A profile is simply a file that describes that state. Color managed apps use these profiles to talk to each other. Consider them like the language of the device. The color management engine in the middle of everything is the universal translator. So you feed one language in, the universal translator in the middle translates and outputs the "language" of the other device or color space. So, your profile that you created for your display is fine and there is really no overwhelming need to clamp the display to AdobeRGB specifically, so as long as this profile is accurate and there is not a bug somewhere, you could use as is. I'm just more curious than anything why it did not stay clamped. This would be more important if you for example were trying to clamp to sRGB. If the profile ends up being larger then it kind of defeats the purpose. You'd have a display that was showing you color that were more saturated and luminous that the sRBG profile contains. That means you could be tweaking really saturated blues expecting your client to see the same on their low end sRGB display and in fact it will either band the color or desaturate unexpectedly. Arch Viz is probably the most sensitive type of content to convert between small/large color spaces as the differences tend to happen in the really saturated blues and greens, which occur often due to grasses and skies. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yeh I think so, as I say I need to read your chapter again as it cleared a lot up last time, I did purchase the tablet version from that link you sent yesterday. The part I don't understand is when you say the profile I created is fine so I don't need to clamp the display to Adobe RGB? Why would I clamp to aRGB once I've created the profile anyway? or did you mean before I created the profile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 31, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2014 The part I don't understand is when you say the profile I created is fine so I don't need to clamp the display to Adobe RGB? Why would I clamp to aRGB once I've created the profile anyway? or did you mean before I created the profile? Ok, so your display from what I understand has a setting where you can select AdobeRGB, sRGB or a custom profile. If not, don't worry about everything above. Out of the box the intent of the manufacturers is that you don't need to calibrate anything and you just switch to AdobeRGB or sRGB and you're done. The reality is that if you are trying to even remotely have accurate color you can't do that. So let's assume the native display has this really large color gamut. If you switch to the on screen setting for sRGB (which would be a much smaller color space) then it would clamp the colors of the display to only output the sRGB gamut (less saturated colors). You would then calibrate your display to the Gamma 2.2/D65 to the known state. Really the only thing those settings do it dumb down the display to a smaller output of color. Setting the on screen menu option to sRGB would effectively be like overpaying for a cheap sRGB native capable display. If you want a smaller color space, you'd be better off buying a cheaper display, than to buy one with all this rich color and then just throwing it out anyway. Better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Really the only thing those settings do it dumb down the display to a smaller output of color. Setting the on screen menu option to sRGB would effectively be like overpaying for a cheap sRGB native capable display. If you want a smaller color space, you'd be better off buying a cheaper display, than to buy one with all this rich color and then just throwing it out anyway. I would disagree with this assumption. Reading up a lot of TFT Central reviews (and I consider these guys to be the absolute benchmark of LCD displays review on the internet, there is nothing even remotely close), the emulation mode of sRGB on high-end pro-grade monitors, which simply are widegamut because the technology in them supports it, not necessary because it's intended color space to be used in, is still better than lesser monitors who support only up to sRGB because the technology isn't there. Based up on few reviews of top panels, the emulated sRGB is often on par or better than what non-wide gamut monitors offer. It's not hindrance or over-paying as there isn't alternative to it. Lot of people aren't buying 1000+ euro monitors to get widegamut, that's simply there in package, some might prefer 14bit lut support, some the accuracy, contrast, overall build quality etc. There is nothing in between on market, there are no high-quality displays without widegamut, as the other pro segment focuses on gamers or media, with low latency, geek tech like high frequency synchronization ( nvidia g-sync,async,etc...) but little color accuracy (and rarely ah-ips with gb-led, more like novel ah-pva panels with rich contrast and pure blacks or just latest TN iteration) With major amount of content moving purely to web (less then 5perc. of my images end up being printed), it makes little sense for me for example to even maintain pipeline that the end-user will benefit none from. That doesn't mean I don't have use for high-quality display, but I have no use for wide-gamut. There are some high-end photographers who do just the same. I found your statement to be bit black and white. Edited October 31, 2014 by RyderSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Interesting, i'd say less than 5pc of my images ONLY end up on the web. 95+ percent of them are printed in brochures, used on billboards around the development, used as full sized facade prints, used as backlit prints in show rooms etc. its very these days that we solely do images for web. They have so many other uses. Hence the reason we're always rendering at 6k pixels and above. So going back to comment about not worrying too much about what the client sees. Ultimately the person i need to be correct for is the person viewing it at the end. The consumer. I have numerous discussions about differences in viewing environments with clients, and ultimately we end up agreeing with the printer rather than the client. These days the clients are very often reviewing images on their phones/tablets/cheap laptops so its almost always impossible to stay in sync with the client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) These days the clients are very often reviewing images on their phones/tablets/cheap laptops so its almost always impossible to stay in sync with the client. Yes this is the case for me, and since these devices are at best some nice IPS panels with crunched colors (like Apple Cinema) and at worst calculator level TN panels (whatever laptop they're on), for me pure sRGB pipeline make sense. But now I understand where you're coming from and it does make sense for you to maintain pure aRGB if it goes directly to printer. But I also give them 16bit tiffs with no color profile in case they go to print, but this is something purely for the print people to manage, the architects/developers/whoever is boss gets nice sRGB jpeg to see only. Just out of curiousity, you don't have this standardized in your studio ? I am jealous of those prints..I love print. But what can I do :- ) Edited October 31, 2014 by RyderSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted October 31, 2014 Administrators Share Posted October 31, 2014 If color is more critical, you can try sending your images in a PDF document rather than the image on it's own, at least for the initial sign off. Acrobat is color managed so it will respect your embeded profile. It's not going to fix a clients monitor if it's totally out of wack, but it's better than having them view it in a non-color managed environment. Also I ran into this the other day http://xritephoto.com/colortrue It's a color managed viewer for iOS. Pretty cool I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I always send my images in a pdf for the sole reason its a colour managed format. But thats assuming acrobat is their pdf viewer of choice. We rarely send jpegs. The only time we issue individual image files is once the images are signed off. We then issue 8-bit jpg (srgb) and 16 bit tiffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inpow watir Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Love this thread, interesting discussion really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Yeh I'll get back to this thread when I can properly, just been swamped with more projects/deadlines as per usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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