Outsourcing disaster

[TommyJ]

Hi everyone,

 

After a disaterous foray into the world of international 3D outsourcing I was wondering whether any of you had similar horror stories that might be fun (and informative to share)

 

I realised a few weeks back that I was going to have too much on to complete everything myself, so I started calling around other 3D companies looking for someone to help with the modeling work.

 

Every European company I spoke to quoted more just for the modeling than I am charging for completed renders, so I tried Chinese and Indian firms. Most of those were also ludicrously expensive too.

 

I ended up going with a (fairly well-know) Indian company who appear to have done the modeling in Sketchup and then converted it to .max format - walls are just extruded and somehow booleaned with windows, rather than nice coherent meshes, so when it renders there are flashing bits and odd lines everywhere - AO passes look ridiculous.

 

Oh, they also got the models totally wrong, built the houses 40% taller than they were supposed to be, built the model in inches instead of meters etc etc

 

Incredibly they also asked for 100% of the fee up front - which I rejected obviously. I'm going to ask for the money back that I have already paid too, as the model is unusable.

 

I'd have been better off doing it myself

 

have others had similar experiences?

[RyderSK]

Shocking and unexpected.

[Nic H]

its almost as if you got what you paid for ?

how did you brief them? id ask for my money back. most of those 'companies' are scams

[howelaw1]

Tried outsourcing once, don't outsource if you think it'll take pressure off a deadline because it'll just make it worse. I spent days trying to communicate with the guy overseas and it would have been much faster if I just smashed it out in a few hours.

 

Also a lot of these guys advertise work that isn't their own on their portfolio; when I got their final work it definitely wasn't the same quality as what I saw in their portfolio.

 

Ended up doing it myself, with less money in my wallet.

[Corey Beaulieu]

Outsourcing in the traditional sense is as you have experienced, disastrous.

 

For future needs you should try to vet some people that you can trust, people that you might hire if conditions were right. Quality of model is nearly as important as quality of image so while you may be planning to manage the final product, you don't need the extra hurdle/overhead of a worthless contractor.

 

I'm sorry this happened to you.

[TommyJ]

thanks Juraj - helpful as ever

 

-- I briefed them by sending a previous 3d model that I'd built and said 'make it like that'. Unfortunately they didn't pay any attention and I got a product that looked like it was built from individual cubic blocks

 

I've lost count of the number of times that I've lost out on work with architects who condescendingly say - 'I could get it done in India for half that'

 

We seem to be living through a paradoxical time where we are losing out to Chinese and Indian competition, yet that competition represents poorer value. Perhaps those clients who decide to go for the cheaper option have to convince themselves that they're getting a bargain.

[himanshuchoudhary]

Hi Tom,

I am really sorry this happened to you.

 

I am from India, and have been working in Europe from the last 3 years in archviz industry. The moment i go back to India, and try to get new clients, the first thing they ask from me is to charge them so called "indian prices" and not european. I find this highly disturbing as they are not going to expect any less quality of work than my portfolio.

 

There is really no reasoning possible with them.

 

On the other hand, i did manage to find certain clients who let me have the complete creative freedom and still haveing a very convincing pay.

It all depends on how the client respects your work.

[SkylineArch]

Sorry for your experience. At a previous job we had a physical model built in China and it was bad as well. They simply did not understand American architecture, how to accurately read and understand the drawings or, like stated above, you get what you pay for.

 

On a side note, I model in SketchUp and never experience the issues you have with the model or rendering. They defiantly messed something up there.

 

You could have posted on here asking for help or bids, at least you can look at their portfolio and posts to get a feel of how you think they may be to work with.

[TommyJ]

thanks for the responses guys

 

Fortunately I've not lost a huge amount of money on this - just a lot of wasted time.

 

If I'm going to take anything from the experience, it's to be a bit more robust when potential clients are trying to haggle me down and threatening to get the work done abroad - I will now be more inclined to say "go right ahead"

[heni30]

I had to work with a Chinese company for a large airport shops project. Big expansion - 40 renderings in 2 months.

 

Someone I know, VP at a large company recommended them - said they had done some amazing conceptual work for them.

 

Anyway, process went something like this:

 

1. Send Chinese acad or sketches or block max model.

2. They send prelim back which is completely finished. At the beginning, renderings were nice but they were off a bit.

3. After a while the prelims start looking lower quality; like they had put their interns on the job.

4. After several rounds of back and forth and threats from us of non-payment they would put their top guys on the job and and send us a rendering that was drop dead gorgeous.

 

So the talent is there but it's hit or miss if you're going to get it, like if they're tied up with something else.

 

Changes were a big pain in the butt. A simple detail change would go back and forth 3 or 4 times before they would do it right.

 

They charged 1/2 of my fee per rendering.

 

It worked out in the end but if they could get their communication kinks worked out they would be a very viable solution. Here's a typical rendering.

 

 

This level of quality was fine for what was required; especially given the tight deadline.

Choosing someone cold would be a huge risk.

Edited November 6, 2014 by heni30

[Scott Schroeder]

If I'm going to take anything from the experience, it's to be a bit more robust when potential clients are trying to haggle me down and threatening to get the work done abroad - I will now be more inclined to say "go right ahead"

 

That's the best take away from this. Let those el cheapo clients go. Why fight to keep them? Let your level of quality and service demand your charging price and accept nothing less.

[RyderSK]

thanks Juraj - helpful as ever

 

Should I feel sorry for you or something then after this rant ? The moment you go for lowest bidder and get what you paid for you're suddenly victim ?

 

 

I've lost count of the number of times that I've lost out on work with architects who condescendingly say - 'I could get it done in India for half that'

 

 

Love the hypocrisy of the forum. One moment everyone hates cheap labor (most commonly from East), the next moment they are saviors of your sudden work influx so why not take advantage of the opportunity ?

 

You got burned by your own stupidity and greediness, I am surprised you're actually shocked this happened. Critical thinking would spare you of the obvious. Your forum account is from 2005 that means in 9 years this is where you arrived in business ? Where most of your competition asks more for modeling than you do for whole visual ?

 

How about reconsider and look at yourself instead of complaining of what has been obvious to everyone for years. How will fishing for back pats help you move through this ? Learn and go on, case closed.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RyderSK

[SkylineArch]

Here's a typical rendering.

 

That doesn't look like it was done in 3D at all, it looks like 2D images and emboss filter on wood texture to create the panels.

 

Hey, whatever. it worked out.

[notamondayfan]

I wouldn't out source abroad unless I had a personal connection with them, there's plently of freelancers here in the UK ready to help out

 

At my previous employers, we used a Chinese firm for modelling a housing development, needless to say I spent nearly as much time cleaning it up and putting their mistakes right as it would have been to model it correctly in the first place.

[SkylineArch]

Juraj. I agree with you that anytime you outsource or hire anyone it's a risk, especially from out of the country. Would you send your tax returns to China, or hire someone at half the price from India to rebuild a transmission on your car?

 

I'm not saying that everyone around the world that is not local to you does terrible work, it is just hard to go out on a limb and hope you are not picking some shop with a fancy website but inexperienced artists behind it. Like Himanshu C brought up, if they were really that good they would ask competitive rates, and at that point, might as well find someone local so you have legal actions to take if needed.

[TommyJ]

Should I feel sorry for you or something after this rant ? The moment you go for lowest bidder and get what you paid for you're suddenly victim ?

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was looking for sympathy - or that I went with the lowest bidder.

 

I'm also not sure why you would have such a confrontational, gloating attitude.

 

It's probably quite difficult for you to get your head around, but not all people on this forum are exclusively 3d artists. Some of us just happen to be able to use 3d skills to illustrate our work.

 

You got burned by your own stupidity and greediness, I am surprised you're actually shocked this happened. Your forum account is from 2005 that means in 9 years this is where you arrived in business ? Where most of your competition asks more for modeling than you do for whole visual ?

 

It may not have been entirely sensible to outsource work, but I fail to see how it counts as greedy, given that I would actually have charged less than the guys I outsourced it to.

 

I would love to be able to spend months making a forum-friendly images of Scandinavian homes under cloudy, moody skies and out-of-focus images of 1960s minimalist furniture, but unfortunately I have other things to do.

 

You make pretty pictures of other people's ideas.

 

Your arrogance is not justified.

[Tommy L]

The key to using freelance labor is not to call on them when you are in need of something quick, but to build a relationship while your hand is nowhere near the panic button. Then when it does get sticky, you have a reliable resource to fall back on. Calling a random company on the other side of the world to get something done in a rush is not a bright idea in any industry. I think we've all seen the fast/good/cheap diagram by now.

[RyderSK]

Juraj. I agree with you that anytime you outsource or hire anyone it's a risk, especially from out of the country. Would you send your tax returns to China, or hire someone at half the price from India to rebuild a transmission on your car?

 

 

Except he knew that:

 

We seem to be living through a paradoxical time where we are losing out to Chinese and Indian competition, yet that competition represents poorer value

[/Quote]

 

Despite knowing that, he went ahead, and complained when it it proved to work exactly as expected, provided poor value.

 

But what if he was satisfied instead ? Well in that case he would continue using them, being thankful someone is even lower bidder, grateful for such opportunity. And your business nemesis would suddenly become your greatest ally. Just amazing hypocritical circle.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RyderSK

[heni30]

That doesn't look like it was done in 3D at all, it looks like 2D images and emboss filter on wood texture to create the panels.

 

Hey, whatever. it worked out.

 

I think it looks 2d because merchandise and some equipment was quickly added in Photoshop.

 

Quality level was very un-demanding. It's going before an airport selection committee and they just want to see the signage - indication of materials - general idea of what's going on inside. They are not looking for exquisitely depicted details and finely articulated AO.

 

Deadline was very stressful.

[Tommy L]

I would love to be able to spend months making a forum-friendly images of Scandinavian homes under cloudy, moody skies and out-of-focus images of 1960s minimalist furniture, but unfortunately I have other things to do.

 

Although I disagree with the sentiment, I have to admit this made me smile.

[TommyJ]

Despite knowing that, he went ahead, and complained when it it proved to work exactly as expected, provided poor value.

 

But what if he was satisfied instead ? Well in that case he would continue using them, being thankful someone is even lower bidder, grateful for such opportunity. Just amazing hypocritical circle.

 

Firstly, I did not 'know' that outsourcing work in such a way represented poor value - it is something that I have come to realise after the fact.

 

Secondly, please don't put words in my mouth.

 

What I would or wouldn't have done had the work been ok is really not for you to judge.

 

I don't see what's actually hypocritical about anything that I've said - unless you take the bizarre and childish step of imagining what I may or may not have done if the work had turned out ok and retelling is as if it were fact, as you appear to be doing.

[TommyJ]

there's plently of freelancers here in the UK ready to help out

 

 

Dean - you're right sure, but I had a pretty hard time finding anyone decent who was free. It was also a pretty tight deadline.

[RyderSK]

I would love to be able to spend months making a forum-friendly images of Scandinavian homes under cloudy, moody skies and out-of-focus images of 1960s minimalist furniture, but unfortunately I have other things to do.

 

You make pretty pictures of other people's ideas.

 

Your arrogance is not justified.

 

Suddenly it's about my work ? If you were not wishing to complain and look for sympathy (which few people actually gave you, I don't know why honestly) why did you even start this thread ? There is not point to discussing obvious.

 

Regarding other people's ideas...well, that's what Archviz is about or not ? If I were visualizing my ideas...I would be architect.

 

Given that you write about loosing jobs to architects, I presume you're visualizer as well, but if not, then my mistake.

 

But you're simply bitter, unable to accept critique if it isn't sugarcoated, I think that tells more about you than my arrogance.

 

 

I don't see what's actually hypocritical about anything that I've said.

 

I don't have energy to point it third time in this thread.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RyderSK

[TommyJ]

Suddenly it's about my work ?

 

no, not particularly.

 

I just mean that there is a certain type of image that viz artists love, but which actually is of little interest to the vast majorty of developers and architects - perhaps they have no taste, who knows.

 

If you were not wishing to complain and look for sympathy (which few people actually gave you, I don't know why honestly) why did you even start this thread ? There is not point to discussing obvious.

 

If you go back and read the original post, you'll see that I was actually interested in hearing other people's experiences of similar situations, not fishing for sympathy. I'm not seven years old.

 

Perhaps you would like to re-read my opening sentence:

 

"After a disaterous foray into the world of international 3D outsourcing I was wondering whether any of you had similar horror stories that might be fun (and informative to share)"

 

I don't see it as discussing the obvious - there are relatively few posts on the subject. I originally thought it dismissive to assume that all Chinese and Indian work is crap - as you seem to be insinuating.

 

But you're simply bitter, unable to accept critique if it isn't sugarcoated, I think that tells more about you than my arrogance.

 

I don't see any request for 'critique', or any attempt to offer one.

 

are you perhaps referring to initial, and rather trite reply?

[himanshuchoudhary]

Juraj, i dont see why should one not give the work to someone else, if it is cheaper. Its completely upto the person in consideration. It failed for tom in this situation, and i think he is voicing his opinion. Secondly, what makes you think that all the work being done in India and china right now is crap? I get this feeling from your statements on quite a lot of threads i read.