Outsourcing disaster

[Tommy L]

I actually find the genus of the topic distasteful. The idea that people on the other side of the world are somehow different from 'us' is not a theory I subscribe to, either ethically or in a business sense. Tom, you chose a business to deal with, my suspicion is that your judgement was skewed by better margins using a cheaper resource. Juraj, 'use better Indians' is not sensitive phrasing and I'd expect better from you.

 

Our 3d community is global. Pick your partners. Build relationships.

 

@Himanshu - yes, there are reasons he cant just give the work to someone else because its cheaper. His work was deemed to be of a quality that his client would like to purchase. Its deceiving to turn around and hand it off to someone else for a mark-up, especially without due diligence.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Tommy L

[TommyJ]

what makes you think that all the work being done in India and china right now is crap? I get this feeling from your statements on quite a lot of threads i read.

 

exactly

[RyderSK]

You're far too literal, it makes no sense to argue further. Don't take it personally, I am attacking your stance which I find poor although you argue otherwise or argue that it's not even there.

It's not like I want to be mean but I find this thread to be absolutely off the hook. Ignore what I said, I meant not ill will, just wanted to state my opinion more harshly to contrast it with all that soapy "I am sorry this happened to you".

If the topic isn't obvious and beaten to death from all the years and every possible industry, then continue on.

 

But regarding the popular copy-cat images in gallery, you could be surprised what developers/architects/designers are often interested and willing to pay greatly for ;- ). But that is literally off-topic to this thread.

 

I actually find the genus of the topic distasteful. The idea that people on the other side of the world are somehow different from 'us' is not a theory I subscribe to, either ethically or in a business sense. Tom, you chose a business to deal with, my suspicion is that your judgement was skewed by better margins using a cheaper resource. Juraj, 'use better Indians' is not sensitive phrasing and I'd expect better from you.

 

Our 3d community is global. Pick your partners. Build relationships.

 

@Himanshu - yes, there are reasons he cant just give the work to someone else because its cheaper. His work was deemed to be of a quality that his client would like to purchase. Its deceiving to turn around and hand it off to someone else for a mark-up, especially without due diligence.

 

I am actually sorry for this as this was meant differently. My sympathy lies with them and that was more sarcastic remark.

They're often seen as cheap labor (but so was I, obviously, check where my country exists), but the moment people can take advantage of that themselves, it's suddently fine. I find this change of mind to be hypocrisy but I don't know how else to articulate this anymore.

 

I was not criticizing the fact he went to Indians (swap any nationality here), but lower bidder/cheap work.

 

I am really, really discussing only the core issue.

 

what makes you think that all the work being done in India and china right now is crap? I get this feeling from your statements on quite a lot of threads i read.

 

I have never voiced my opinion on what I think their work is worth publicly on forum. Off-topic, I think some of the eastern (particulary Chinese) companies produce excellent work. I also hold other general opinion based on reality but really, never wrote anything conscending regarding that. You're only reading far too much between lines based on your outlook.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RyderSK

[TommyJ]

there are reasons he cant just give the work to someone else because its cheaper. His work was deemed to be of a quality that his client would like to purchase. Its deceiving to turn around and hand it off to someone else for a mark-up, especially without due diligence.

 

getting a foreign company to do some of the 3d modeling on a job - at rates similar to those in the UK - is not deceitful. Perhaps offshoring the entire job could be considered so.

 

By that rationale it's deceitful for the owner of a creative company to pass work to his employees and not do the whole thing himself.

 

If a company hires Foster and Partners to design a bridge, do they honestly expect Norman Foster to do all the work himself?

[Tommy L]

getting a foreign company to do some of the 3d modeling on a job - at rates similar to those in the UK - is not deceitful. Perhaps offshoring the entire job could be considered so.

 

By that rationale it's deceitful for the owner of a creative company to pass work to his employees and not do the whole thing himself.

 

If a company hires Foster and Partners to design a bridge, do they honestly expect Norman Foster to do all the work himself?

 

My response was leveled at Himanshu's comment, which was more general. I outsource a lot of my own modeling tasks. You are quite defensive in your posts. There is no need to be, you are amongst your peers.

[himanshuchoudhary]

@Himanshu - yes, there are reasons he cant just give the work to someone else because its cheaper. His work was deemed to be of a quality that his client would like to purchase. Its deceiving to turn around and hand it off to someone else for a mark-up, especially without due diligence.

 

Sure tom,

thats what i am saying, if it is cheaper and has good quality which is expected of his work, he has full freedom to choose to outsource as he wishes. When i said it turned out wrong this time for him, was what i was talking about in terms of the quality.

 

If you read my earlier comment, i am completely against charging less(asian prices) for the same quality as anywhere else.

[klonk]

It is funny though how 99% of all threads on this forum is horrified that work can be done cheaper somewhere else, and then suddenly when it turns out the work is abysmal, many are shocked and find it completely unexpected. Probably one of the most hypocritical threads ever.

 

"All the "plumbers/car mechanics/fill in blank" were way to expensive so I found this supposedly reputable company on the internet..."

 

Tommy, don't you honestly see this yourself?

[TommyJ]

I am actually sorry for this as this was meant differently. My sympathy lies with them and that was more sarcastic remark.

They're often seen as cheap labor (but so was I, obviously, check where my country exists), but the moment people can take advantage of that themselves, it's suddently fine. I find this change of mind to be hypocrisy but I don't know how else to articulate this anymore.

 

I was not criticizing the fact he went to Indians (swap any nationality here), but lower bidder/cheap work.

 

[/b]

 

You may see these countries as 'cheap labour' but as I said above, I was not paying a rate any lower than I pay in the UK, I just went with the first professional-looking company that could turn the work around in time

 

I was also only outsourcing 3d modeling of some of the buildings, not rendering, photoshopping and all the other stuff

[RyderSK]

You may see these countries as 'cheap labour' but as I said above, I was not paying a rate any lower than I pay in the UK,

 

Ok, maybe you could have stressed this point more properly as it does change the theme more towards "companies that lie in their portfolios" but you nonetheless started the topic with outsourcing in more general terms and stressing price in comparison with EU studios and naming the issue in geographic manner as well and that's sensitive topic that has been in certain direction for past years in discussions.

 

I find it bit hard to believe Indian company would charge rate at level of UK company, and therefore UK being cheaper than continental EU companies.

[TommyJ]

It is funny though how 99% of all threads on this forum is horrified that work can be done cheaper somewhere else, and then suddenly when it turns out the work is abysmal, many are shocked and find it completely unexpected. Probably one of the most hypocritical threads ever.

 

"All the "plumbers/car mechanics/fill in blank" were way to expensive so I found this supposedly reputable company on the internet..."

 

Tommy, don't you honestly see this yourself?

 

 

Niclas - as I said above, the company I used was not cheaper than domestic rates.

 

That was the gist of my original post - that outsourcing isn't as cheap as some people make out.

 

...and to be honest, I haven't read a single thread that complains about the low cost of outsourced 3D modeling work. Full finished renders, perhaps, but not 3D modeling.

 

It seems that all those accusing me of hypocrisy have not actually read and/or understood the original post.

[RyderSK]

It seems that all those accusing me of hypocrisy have not actually read and/or understood the original post.

Every European company I spoke to quoted more just for the modeling than I am charging for completed renders, so I tried Chinese and Indian firms.

 

But this really isn't issue on our part, that's how you communicated it, although unintentionally perhaps.

[klonk]

Niclas - as I said above, the company I used was not cheaper than domestic rates.

 

That was the gist of my original post - that outsourcing isn't as cheap as some people make out.

 

...and to be honest, I haven't read a single thread that complains about the low cost of outsourced 3D modeling work. Full finished renders, perhaps, but not 3D modeling.

 

It seems that all those accusing me of hypocrisy have not actually read and/or understood the original post.

 

Dude, you are totally back pedaling now. This is your exact statement, and I think I understood it:

 

"Every European company I spoke to quoted more just for the modeling than I am charging for completed renders, so I tried Chinese and Indian firms."

[TommyJ]

without meaning to labour the point -

 

If I had decided to get fully finished images produced by a foreign company and it had ended badly, then perhaps an accusation of hypocrisy would be justified.

 

However I only did it to ease the burden of lots of 3d modeling

 

I have never once complained that the European industry is losing 3d modeling work to other regions. To be honest I'm not aware of anyone else doing it either.

 

I'm sorry if I seem defensive, buy I think I'm within my rights to be when others jump to conclusions, read between the lines and put words in my mouth

[TommyJ]

Dude, you are totally back pedaling now. This is your exact statement, and I think I understood it:

 

"Every European company I spoke to quoted more just for the modeling than I am charging for completed renders, so I tried Chinese and Indian firms."

 

can you explain how you think that constitutes back-pedaling?

[Tommy L]

It is funny though how 99% of all threads on this forum is horrified that work can be done cheaper somewhere else, and then suddenly when it turns out the work is abysmal, many are shocked and find it completely unexpected. Probably one of the most hypocritical threads ever.

 

"All the "plumbers/car mechanics/fill in blank" were way to expensive so I found this supposedly reputable company on the internet..."

 

Tommy, don't you honestly see this yourself?

 

Ha. Well you'd be surprised by some of my opinions. Im a bit of a lefty. This thread is not hypocritical, its a symptom of the blinkered view of middle America. Is the life view of a typical American hypocritical? I'd say it is narrow, but not hypocritical. Growing pains. Its an introspective country. I love it, but it needs to look in the mirror.

 

I believe those 99% of 'horrified' people have a fundamentally skewed view of the world. Having resided 6 countries on 3 continents I have seen more than most. Having been in 3d for 15 years Ive seen a few things there too.

 

I have a long history of using freelancers. Ive never liked the idea of having the responsibility of keeping people employed. So I outsource what I cant do. Im an average modeler, so I use resources for furniture modeling. Im no good at tracking, or rigging, so I outsource that too. I outsource greenscreen shooting, keying and film color grading. I outsource photography (budget allowing). I outsource high end retouching for the advertising industry, storyboarding, whatever will give my client the best result.

I use local and off-site freelancers. My freelancers have called many countries home, including India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Singapore, UK, Poland, Argentina. The ones that work out continue to get work, the ones that dont, I chalk it up to a experience. I have put a massive amount of time, effort and money into building the relationships I have with my vendors. I dont put ANY effort into finding clients, they find me.

 

The real problem of freelance is perception. Not of the client, but of the company contracting the resource. Unless you treat it as a relationship rather than a service you'll always be disappointed. I love to use local, because I like to meet people! But the fact is, I cant get good service for all my needs here.

Its just like going to the store, or the farmers market. I love local, but I need fruit all year round.

 

Its not the 1950's any more. The Madmen office is gone. The 99% of horrified people had better start being less horrified. And Im not puling down the cost of 3d in my country (Im relatively costly), Im improving the service I can provide.

Because of the way I treat my freelancers, I am also enriching the lives of people who live in comparative poverty in countries with a low standard of living, Im proud of that.

[RyderSK]

..Well you'd be surprised by some of my opinions. Im a bit of a lefty. This thread is not hypocritical, its a symptom of the blinkered view of middle America. Is the life view of a typical American hypocritical? I'd say it is narrow, but not hypocritical. Growing pains. Its an introspective country. I love it, but it needs to look in the mirror...

 

I do agree with your views (although I am as right-wing as The Economist gets, but not further), but this was strangely off-topic to me, although the relationship vs service is indeed what look admirable.

 

The pointed out hypocrisy (now in really, just general terms, disregarding this thread) is not at expense of people who complain of 'cheap labor' happening (like lot of americans like in your example), but only that minority which both complains of it, or is aware/consider it to be issue for them and yet choose to partake in it for the same reason. It's almost pyramid scheme at that point.

 

That does not apply to you at all (or even the general majority who does complaining) but you have to see where that is coming from.

Edited November 6, 2014 by RyderSK

[Tommy L]

I do agree with your views (although I am as right-wing as The Economist gets, but not further), but this was strangely off-topic to me, although the relationship vs service is indeed what look admirable.

 

The pointed out hypocrisy (now in really, just general terms, disregarding this thread) is not at expense of people who complain of 'cheap labor' happening (like lot of americans like in your example), but only that minority which both complains of it, or is aware of such issue and yet choose to partake in it for the same reason. It's almost pyramid scheme at that point.

 

That does not apply to you at all but you have to see where that is coming from.

 

Yes, exactly. The hypocrisy is as you describe, trying to make a quick buck at the thing you perceive to be against your long term interests.

 

I made my epic previous post as this subject is personal to me. The OP was asking for out-sourcing horror stories, I just wanted to show the flip-side. When its done right, everybody wins (client, vendor, 3rd party). Also to demonstrate the redundancy of pigeon-holing artists by nation. They are just people with skills. In our industry it doesnt matter where they are.

[TommyJ]

Yes, exactly. The hypocrisy is as you describe, trying to make a quick buck at the thing you perceive to be against your long term interests.

 

 

..but who's doing that?

[Scott Schroeder]

[klonk]

[harryhirsch]

Anchorman I or II?

[Nic H]

this is a good thread

enjoyed reading

 

who wants to come and work in australia

[heni30]

I don't think so!

 

 

......................and that's a Hasselblad!

 

I think she still hasn't grasped the concept of the selfie.

Edited November 6, 2014 by heni30

[Justin Hunt]

Nah, its not the Kangaroo's you gotta watch out for, it just stepping out the backdoor, and these are the harmless ones.

[klonk]

And apparently in love.