ONYX - better in more recent version?

[Ernest Burden III]

I haven't used ONYX in a long time, and was thinking of trying again since I own it. I emailed them and got a reply in the same week, so they are still alive.

 

But trying again today, I am wondering if I should use this software or jump in front of a subway train. Still not sure.

 

When I emailed asking about a newer module I seem to lack in my GardenSUITE, they pointed out that they would be happy to sell me a new bundle, but otherwise, no, can't have it. Hum. The one I have is stand-alone and it does not seem able to remember a browse path, so to 'load' involves click for drive, then for folder, then another and on and on 'till I find the library. If the 'seed' isn't right, do it all over again like it's 1992 windows. The app seems to lack any undo, so playing with settings no fun.

 

There is a question here. Does this newer bundle they suggested I buy fix any of those usability problems?

[simonm]

buy growfx, its so much better.

 

I haven't used ONYX in a long time, and was thinking of trying again since I own it. I emailed them and got a reply in the same week, so they are still alive.

 

But trying again today, I am wondering if I should use this software or jump in front of a subway train. Still not sure.

 

When I emailed asking about a newer module I seem to lack in my GardenSUITE, they pointed out that they would be happy to sell me a new bundle, but otherwise, no, can't have it. Hum. The one I have is stand-alone and it does not seem able to remember a browse path, so to 'load' involves click for drive, then for folder, then another and on and on 'till I find the library. If the 'seed' isn't right, do it all over again like it's 1992 windows. The app seems to lack any undo, so playing with settings no fun.

 

There is a question here. Does this newer bundle they suggested I buy fix any of those usability problems?

[Francisco Penaloza]

No, the software have not been updated since the 1800's it is pretty sad, some functions are so good to create plants but it is slow, clumsy and not functional any more.

 

Grow FX, e-on Tree factory or speed trees are way better options, at least the still in development, mostly GrowFX and tree factory.

[Nic H]

yes onyx is really terrible. they shouldnt be selling that anymore

try growfx if you need to make trees

or laubwerks if you need decent premade models

[Ernest Burden III]

yes onyx is really terrible. they shouldnt be selling that anymore

try growfx if you need to make trees

or laubwerks if you need decent premade models

 

GrowFx looks good (at least the results, not much on interface and use on their site) but it is Max-based. I don't use Max. No stand-alone version mentioned.

 

Maybe I should pay some poor desperate young soul to muddle through ONXY and output a lot of models to save for another time. Though I would feel partially responsible for their inevitable suicide.

[Tommy L]

Buying complete collections is the way to go unless you need to animate the tress (wind or growth).

I actually quite like Onyx, but dont reach for it as often as I used to.

[Francisco Penaloza]

ONYX is OK, if you have an old version well just keep using it, but I don't think is a good idea to buy the "New" version because actually there is non, nothing been updated.

I also agree that the only Flaw of Grow FX if we can call it that way is that only works within 3D Max. If you are like me, with clients request of specific plants that I can't find in any library, then invest is something like e-on Plan Factory or Speed tree will be a better option. Even Xfrog is falling behind.

[Ernest Burden III]

Buying complete collections is the way to go unless you need to animate the tress (wind or growth).

I actually quite like Onyx, but dont reach for it as often as I used to.

 

Have you found ways to make using it less frustrating? I have put the folders as high up as I can to lessen the navigating. The module I do not have is the grass one.

 

For wind and variation I use point-based displacement with 3D RGB noise. Moving the noise acts like wind, and it has subtle variations in it, animate the noise to cycle and get more complex effects. Not that I end up doing pieces with blowing trees very often.

 

EDIT - Wow, Speedtree is ugly!

Edited March 3, 2015 by Ernest Burden

[Tommy L]

I used the dynamic wind in Max with the TreeStorm plugin. Thats pretty heavy, you opnly do it with the hero trees. Ive only used it on 2 projects. Most of my work is stills, most of those are interiors....

When TreeStorm works its really good. I cant remember having issues with folder navigation.

So far as updates go, I think they only update as in re-write code for newer versions of Max. I dont think they actually update any of the functionality.

[SgWRX]

so these programs are mostly modelers for trees, bushes, plants etc... something like forest pack is mainly for distribution of the stuff? although it looks like growFX has some distribution function.

 

in fact, forest pack can lead you to purchasing packs of models that were created with software like growfx, speedtree, or laubwerks...

 

but, you could just buy a few packs of 3d trees or bushes/flowers etc... and not even worry about having the modeling software.

 

one thing is that many of these 3d trees have opacity mapped leaves which can really take extra time to render vs. just a low poly leaf.

[RyderSK]

 

one thing is that many of these 3d trees have opacity mapped leaves which can really take extra time to render vs. just a low poly leaf.

 

It's constantly perpetuated myth. The rendering penalty came from filtering of opacity maps, disabling them or using "cut-out" mods (like Vray introduced in 3.12 update) lessens it to negligible difference.

Also the visual difference isn't worth sacrificing. The best result comes from combination of low-poly leaf (to get highlights) and opacity map at same time. Ideally mapped with normal map to provide further relief. It will still look CGI-ish, unless you spend inhuman effort like Alex did (manually...).

 

Greenery is my obsession so...here are my notes on current modelers:

 

GrowFx: Absolute winner in terms on visual mesh quality. Philosophy of easy to learn, hard to master. If you want trees even remotely resembling real species, it means you will have to painstakingly copy them, which requires perfect spatial and nature recognition first, because this plugin has absolutely no generative (algorithmic) qualities like Onyx did. It's done by programmer after all, not botanist. That is their biggest minus.

 

SpeedTree: Oldie, but goodie. Easy to learn,...hard to do anything...special/better. Regardless of the possibility to use mesh leaves, the soft isn't really excelling in that type of workflow and to get out of it "hero" models is imho quite impossible. Good for look-dev and games, but no high-end viz in 2015.

 

Plant Factory: Actually the same as SpeedTree but on steroids. Quite possible to do "hero" trees, but it's pretty complex process. It almost dives into generative territory but it's still mostly nodal version of GrowFx's curves. Just with almost obscene amount of controls if you want. I could only suggest if this is to become your hobby and you plan to spend quite a lot of time with it in near future.

 

Laubwerk: Not a modeller, just quite smart library type of plugin. The models are in my opinion, ugly to point of Evermotion comparison. But in eyes of most, I guess they are ok...

 

Onyx: Amazing philosophy of actual algorithmic growth based on botany research. So much potential, such a correct way to go. Sadly, it became abandoware and due to technical difficulties, it became obsolete. Why the **** can't someone replicate this ? Why the above stupidities no one asked for ?

[SgWRX]

Juraj, good information, thanks!

 

i still seem to get slow render times with mentalray and cut-outs? a few years back i avoided cutout/opacity maps all the time, probably because i didn't know then what i know now so i'll revisit and play with filter settings and research it a bit more. thanks for that too!

 

i do have onyxgarden suite looks like i might continue using that. i _need_ to get some trees and bushes for semi-close views. i've also been playing with translucency for the leaves lately and have found that tweaking the settings in the arch&design material really helps render times.

[SgWRX]

It's constantly perpetuated myth. The rendering penalty came from filtering of opacity maps, disabling them or using "cut-out" mods (like Vray introduced in 3.12 update) lessens it to negligible difference.

 

i don't think this is a myth.

 

i've been able to slightly increase rendering speed in mentalray by unlocking the shadow option under the basic shaders in the mentalray connection. render times could take 25% less.

 

however, at least with mentalray, disabling the filtering of the cutout map doubled my render times.

 

could you share your experiences or suggest some other things for me to research?

 

ps - i suppose it could be a vray/mentalray thing too. thanks!

[RyderSK]

Unfortunately I have very little mental ray experience, which amounts to none today. It was my understanding that MentalRay Arch&Design Shader cutout slot was already pure black&white simplification of opacity slot, which if filtered, provides far harder sampling for renderer.

 

Vray never had cutout slot, only opacity, which at default filtering provides heavy penalty to rendering, but checking filtering off lessens this to small degree, which diminishes completely if the used leaf polygons show as little black space as possible (only beneficial trick if you're creating your own leaves). 3.12 update brought more opacity 'modes', one of which, is basically cutout of pure two-tone BW without filtering.

 

When I replied to you originally, I had no idea you had MentalRay in mind, because the issue was far more popularized with Vray and almost every discussion is by default granted as meant Vray in mind. Sorry about it, can't help then. Although, the best foliage rendering up to date, was done used opacity mapped leaves by Marla back in day (2009) and he had very good times (like 2-4 hours on 'ancient' hardware back then (Q6600?) for 3k res), so there obviously must be a trick as well how to cheat the AA sampling.

[SgWRX]

i must not have posted correctly last night. short version: no worries and thanks again. i have to remember to mention mentalray when not in the mentalray category it's all about getting better...

 

also, i've attached a couple renders from this morning. that "unlock shadows" trick, obvious what it's doing... removing the cutout altogether. you'll see the shadows in the upper left render are from the plane object the leaf is mapped too.

 

i don't have any bump maps or normal maps here, just diffuse and cutout. it is a double-sided material, with the a&d materials in front/back. translucency is turned on for the backside with full weight.