Walt Disney Concert Hall - Frank Ghery

[Cesar R]

Hey guys,

 

I was just wondering how are drawings for such projects generated.. Revit anyone?

 

http://www.z1technology.com/clay/a_021004_cali2.html

[Ernest Burden III]

Revit anyone?

 

No.

 

Catia

[Cesar R]

Catia?

 

what is that?

[Cesar R]

ok, I did some research... U guess IBM develop CAd software? anyway..

 

I did find and article about Franks building on their site related to Catia.

So I guess form the looks of some screen shots Catia is like Inventor...?

 

or it it better?

 

Thanks

[Bhanu]

Hi,

 

CATIA is a mechanical modeling and analysis software similar like Inventor; I guess it is higer level than Inventor...

 

Gehry Associates have some kind of understanding with CATIA and they are using it successfully for the kind of projects. Some time back I read Lachmi Khelmani's article...

http://www.aecbytes.com/feature/Gehry_Study.htm

Check this it might give some info.

[V_Type]

Catia is a CAD soft developped by Dassault Aviation (Falcon private jets and Rafale last generation french fighting airplane). It's used to model, calculate and simulate lots of mechanical, physical or elses factors. Some architects agencies (Ghery...) used it to draw, to model, and calculate complex structural shapes.

[Frosty]

Gehry also uses Rhino extensively.

[Cesar R]

if you guys had to draw a building like such, what would you use?

[Manuel Rivera]

I'd use rhino. Modeling and editing complex geometry is simple.

[bricklyne]

Actually a great many people completely misunderstand Gehry's design process and have over time come to oversimplify his design studio as one that is driven by CATIA. While CATIA ( which means Computer Aided Three-dimensional Interface Application, for those who are not aware) is extermely important and significant to the Gehry design Studio, particularly in light of the iconoclastic and bold nature of their designs, it really doesn't come into the picture until late in the game. In fact Gehry himself is reknowned for his phobia(disdain?) of computers and computer technology. Consequently most of his designs begin much like in any other architect's office, on tracing paper and the wood/metal/material workshop, and more so, in the workshop, for his office than in other studios; in light of how experimental his forms are and particularly because physical scale models are the practically the only way of capturing the essence of his design ideas. He most usually uses wood for the initial model and these models are then digitized or scanned into the computers using Rhino, which is additionally used to refine curves and check curve tolerances and make minor tweaks and changes to the design. Rhino3D can, of course, export into a variety of formats including DWG, but this is not done at this stage because AutoCAD only enters into the picture long after a whole bunch of other processes when they need to send drawings to manufacturers or Engineers who are not on their CATIA system ( most eventually have to adopt it to work with Gehry). Instead they use the imported Rhino model to produce a model in IGES format file or even native CATIA files ( which Rhino can now do) and then import the design into CATIA from which point they can then proceed with the design as a typical CAD ( or more accurately BIM) design where you have the main model and can extract plans, sections, elevations etc from it. However this is not the reason for the choice of CATIA ( even though back in the day, when he first delved into this kind of design with Bilbao, CATIA was frankly speaking the only CAD/CAM software capable of BIM design to this degree of parametric control.). The reason that CATIA gains significance is because of it's vastly developed curvature analysis, design capabilities as well as its Structural and mechanical coordination and intergration capacities, all gained with it's extensive experience in the Aerospace and Nautical industries. The ability to coordinate design intent with Structural and Mechanical Part production processes makes CATIA uniquely significant particularly with Gehry's curvilinear forms where accuracy and detail are vital to keeping costs down; through the production of enough ( or a significantly high number of) construction Documents that accurately convey all the necessary design information to the various part manufacturers while leaving very little room for subjective interpretation that tends to raise costs in other design processes.

Like I said before, when Gehry first ventured into these kinds of design projects, and particularly of the scale of Bilbao and Walt Disney, he needed a process and software that would loose very little of his design vision while producing enough information for Manufacturers and Engineers to work with, (even if they were not on CATIA workstations themselves), while still keeping costs for the client down and not encroaching into his typically traditional design process. CATIA was the only system that fit the bill. But as anyone who's used it knows, it is a monster of a program. In fact it really is a collection of programs all tied together to an Engine that unifies the model while facilitating different divisions either independantly or together. None of the existing AEC software design BIM programs ( Revit, ArchiCAD, Microstation, Vectorworks etc) either today or then can or could handle these requirements; at least not independently.

 

So at the end of the day, it's not really the fact that CATIA can handle the type of curvilinear forms that Gehry's design's tend to generate, that it's the reason it is employed by his firm ( if that were the case, Rhino would be suffecient, or for that matter MAX). It also involves the fact that it (through the various subsets and sub-programs) is capable of supporting an entire process that encapsulates the design, updates, costing and eventual construction and construction management of a particular process. Of course, it doesn't hurt one bit that it already has an intergrated BIM engine (one of the first in the AEC field and a long-standing staple of the Aerospace, Nautical and Product design fields that CATIA is also used in) and interface capable of fluidly handling curvilinear models to the degree that other BIM applications ( Revit, ArchiCAD et al) simply cannot. It's also one of fthe reasons that it is prohibitively expensive and not more well known nor used in the AEC field.

 

But when it all comes down to it, Gehry design like any other architect's, begin on tracing paper and the wood workshop and are driven by what happens on paper. It's how it gets from there to the Construction site ( as well as the actual design itself) that sets him apart from the rest of the field.

[William Alexander]

Lets not over complicate this, it can be done in AutoCad using 4 polys 2d & 3d (arc & line) to determine the surface by edge surface command. It can be- that simple. Lot's of advantages for using rhino and such, though. Catia is way out of most firms and indivualds price range anyway.

 

WDA

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

if memory serves, i remember seeing more ghery models out of clay than out of wood. maybe clay with a wood substructure.

 

...also, if memory serves i also think the software ghery uses helps him generate the least number of curved shapes to build the form. i.e., if you can reduce the disney opera house to 5 or so curved pieces that can then be massed produced to form the skin, you dramatically cut down on the price tag for the building. he may have the shape on paper and in his head, btu to meat budgets, he needs then also software to refine the shape to make it cost effective.

 

i could have been dreaming this though.

[bricklyne]

Perhaps you misunderstood or simply just didn't read through my entire post. Of course the forms that Gehry designs can be modelled and drawn in AutoCAD, or even MAX or maybe even Revit and ArchiCAD if one was skilled enough and had enough time. But like I said, Gehry does not use CATIA to model his design much less to execute the design. Hell, he doesn't even use Rhino, ( mostly) even though it is largely significant to his process. By the time the model gets to the CATIA phase, most of the design ( modelling and styling) is largely complete with the exception of accomodating late design changes and updates. The design itself is initiated and executed through a rather traditional process ( paper, pen, wood block, chisel =>model)

 

The importance of CATIA has to do with what happens when the design has to go from Gehry's office to the Construction site via the Mechanical and Structural Engineers, Part (Envelop) manufacturers and most importantly Cost evaluators. In Gehry's process through CATIA, he's able to combine and intergrate all of the above mentioned into a seamless workflow that minimizes the bottomline and in a way that AutoCAD or Revit or MAX simply cannot; at least on their own to the degree of effeciency and accuracy that CATIA does. Highlighting a major difference between flatland CAD and Hybrid BIM that Gehry uses.

 

There's a very good reason that it (CATIA) is as expensive as it is. There's also a very good reason (beyond artistic predeliction) that not many offices execute as daring and unique designs as Gehry does even though they may want to.

[Cesar R]

cool, yep I feel very constrained by the software, and I need to focus more on models, but I am then afraid of now being able to draw them.. I am going to look into rhino or inventor. I also like revit, but I am not sure how to integrate them. Unless I just use rhino and acad...and forget the BIM solution

[Arnel]

Hi Cesar I strongly believed that all these can be completely modelled and documented in Revit. We must remember that Revit was not even around when these famous architects started designing free form architectural design and we dont exactly know what tools they used to model and document those structures.

 

Just a bit of information how revit users progresses and pushed the software to its limit if you check AUGI revit forum you must be amazed of how people already uses Revit to design freeform structures. There are already a lot of them being showcased in the forum it is just that not in any other forum.

 

Just to show some samples done by some users and posted in AUGI revit forum.

[Cesar R]

wow impressive... i will check out augui.

[ljoel]

I attended a meeting of our local Project Management Institure chapter last night where a guy from M.A. Mortenson talked about their use of CATIA to develop plans for the Walt Disney Hall. Gehry presented them with a wire model only, and Mortenson built the computer model using CATIA. They added Primavera scheduling components to the 3D CAD software to monitor construction. They shaved 6 months from the schedule and returned $2M to the client in cost savings. The modeling/planning took a year and the contruction 37 months with literally no problems - a big contrast to other constructors history in implementing Gehry designs.

[bricklyne]

I attended a meeting of our local Project Management Institure chapter last night where a guy from M.A. Mortenson talked about their use of CATIA to develop plans for the Walt Disney Hall. Gehry presented them with a wire model only, and Mortenson built the computer model using CATIA. They added Primavera scheduling components to the 3D CAD software to monitor construction. They shaved 6 months from the schedule and returned $2M to the client in cost savings. The modeling/planning took a year and the contruction 37 months with literally no problems - a big contrast to other constructors history in implementing Gehry designs.

 

Yeah most people, often tend to overlook the fact that this is perhaps, the biggest part of the genius or brilliance of Gehry's architecture. Not so much the free-form, curvilinear sculptural forms that are obviously iconoclastic and ahead of their time, which form his design basis, but rather the cost and resource-effeciency of his entire design process; from his workshop all the way to the Construction site and even beyond to Facilities management. With his CATIA driven process, almost all his projects get completed ahead of schedule and under budget to such a degree that he is able to afford much more freedom to experiment with aesthetic and structural prototypical forms that other architects can only dream about but never realistically build. Thanks to the work that Jim Glymph ( his IT head) did with integrating CATIA into their offices, he has perfected the practice of Parametric-Process driven design to the degree that most of today's BIM solutions can only aspire to.

 

But of course, given the specialized nature of CATIA, the high capital and prohibitive implementation costs, involved in instituting such an optimized process, it remains, for the forseeable future anyways, a pipe dream for the average sized Architectural firm; despite the considrable benefits. Perhaps in the future when the AEC industries are a bit more integrated and less saddled with the threat of liability ( the ever looming lawsuits), CAD/BIM manufacturers will be able to study and better design their software to facilitate that same level of optimzed and seamless design and construction.

 

But I highly doubt it.

[dmthurman]

I"m interested in finding out if anyone has extended this type of workflow into Solidworks or any other Cad/Cam software for say smaller projects. It Seems that previously Cad/Cam Solutions could handle complex forms but the ability to handle complex assemblies were limited. I Saw that Solidworks 2006 has really ramped up their capabilites in handling complex assemblies. I'm wondering if it's beginning to be possible or fesible to model say residential, light commerical projects in a program such as Solidworks.

[Brian Cassil]

Hey Clarence, I've enjoyed reading your posts on this. They seem to be very well informed and insightfull. I wonder how it is that you know so much about Gehry's process?

[bricklyne]

Hi Brian,

 

I did a research paper on the Guggenheim Bilbao project during my architecture degree course at Uni. I also did an appendix to that research with a brief assessement of Walt Disney Concert Hall and as a comparison to Guggenheim Bilbao coming about a decade down the road from the original design. At the offset you would be surprised at just how much information and data that one can mine off of libraries, the internet and other secondary resources despite the level of fame involved with Gehry and Gehry's projects. However, Gehry Partners design studio and Gehry Technologies LLC were particularly helpful in filling in the blanks as well as helping me sift out some of the uncorroborated stuff in my research. Gehry himself is a one of a kind architect in this day and age not just with his unique design style, but also in his personal convictions regarding the profession as a whole; believing in paying all his employees fairly, even the interns, in a profession that is notorious for over-exploiting and underpaying it's lower staff members( at leas tin comparison to their peers in other professions) as well as his beliefs that architecture should be an epxerience to be enjoyed and not a labour to be toiled over for the majority of one's productive life before enjoiying the fruits in the their twilight years. It's no surprise that interest in his studio has attracted the likes of Mr. Smith himself, Brad Pitt, who's reknowned to have a deep interest in Architecture and will be working in Gehry Studios on a residential design project inthe UK.

 

I have always had an interest in Design and Technology, specifically Building Information Design and Virtual Modelling software and philosophies, but I must admit that that research was as enlightening to a whole new level as it was a most fulfilling experience. Whether or not one likes his design style ( and he does have his numerous detractors), youhave to admire his vision and ground-breaking ingenuity in pushing the envelop (along with the rest of the profession), particularly when you understand what goes into it all.

[STRAT]

i'd model that lot using a combo of autocad and max

[Cesar R]

Actually a great many people completely misunderstand Gehry's design process and have over time come to oversimplify his design studio as one that is driven by CATIA. While CATIA ( which means Computer Aided Three-dimensional Interface Application, for those who are not aware) is extermely important and significant to the Gehry design Studio, particularly in light of the iconoclastic and bold nature of their designs, it really doesn't come into the picture until late in the game. In fact Gehry himself is reknowned for his phobia(disdain?) of computers and computer technology. Consequently most of his designs begin much like in any other architect's office, on tracing paper and the wood/metal/material workshop, and more so, in the workshop, for his office than in other studios; in light of how experimental his forms are and particularly because physical scale models are the practically the only way of capturing the essence of his design ideas. He most usually uses wood for the initial model and these models are then digitized or scanned into the computers using Rhino, which is additionally used to refine curves and check curve tolerances and make minor tweaks and changes to the design. Rhino3D can, of course, export into a variety of formats including DWG, but this is not done at this stage because AutoCAD only enters into the picture long after a whole bunch of other processes when they need to send drawings to manufacturers or Engineers who are not on their CATIA system ( most eventually have to adopt it to work with Gehry). Instead they use the imported Rhino model to produce a model in IGES format file or even native CATIA files ( which Rhino can now do) and then import the design into CATIA from which point they can then proceed with the design as a typical CAD ( or more accurately BIM) design where you have the main model and can extract plans, sections, elevations etc from it. However this is not the reason for the choice of CATIA ( even though back in the day, when he first delved into this kind of design with Bilbao, CATIA was frankly speaking the only CAD/CAM software capable of BIM design to this degree of parametric control.). The reason that CATIA gains significance is because of it's vastly developed curvature analysis, design capabilities as well as its Structural and mechanical coordination and intergration capacities, all gained with it's extensive experience in the Aerospace and Nautical industries. The ability to coordinate design intent with Structural and Mechanical Part production processes makes CATIA uniquely significant particularly with Gehry's curvilinear forms where accuracy and detail are vital to keeping costs down; through the production of enough ( or a significantly high number of) construction Documents that accurately convey all the necessary design information to the various part manufacturers while leaving very little room for subjective interpretation that tends to raise costs in other design processes.

Like I said before, when Gehry first ventured into these kinds of design projects, and particularly of the scale of Bilbao and Walt Disney, he needed a process and software that would loose very little of his design vision while producing enough information for Manufacturers and Engineers to work with, (even if they were not on CATIA workstations themselves), while still keeping costs for the client down and not encroaching into his typically traditional design process. CATIA was the only system that fit the bill. But as anyone who's used it knows, it is a monster of a program. In fact it really is a collection of programs all tied together to an Engine that unifies the model while facilitating different divisions either independantly or together. None of the existing AEC software design BIM programs ( Revit, ArchiCAD, Microstation, Vectorworks etc) either today or then can or could handle these requirements; at least not independently.

 

So at the end of the day, it's not really the fact that CATIA can handle the type of curvilinear forms that Gehry's design's tend to generate, that it's the reason it is employed by his firm ( if that were the case, Rhino would be suffecient, or for that matter MAX). It also involves the fact that it (through the various subsets and sub-programs) is capable of supporting an entire process that encapsulates the design, updates, costing and eventual construction and construction management of a particular process. Of course, it doesn't hurt one bit that it already has an intergrated BIM engine (one of the first in the AEC field and a long-standing staple of the Aerospace, Nautical and Product design fields that CATIA is also used in) and interface capable of fluidly handling curvilinear models to the degree that other BIM applications ( Revit, ArchiCAD et al) simply cannot. It's also one of fthe reasons that it is prohibitively expensive and not more well known nor used in the AEC field.

 

But when it all comes down to it, Gehry design like any other architect's, begin on tracing paper and the wood workshop and are driven by what happens on paper. It's how it gets from there to the Construction site ( as well as the actual design itself) that sets him apart from the rest of the field.

 

 

I dont think I ever for a chance to thank you for such detailed and insightful post. I have to say that only now 7 years later it actually make sense to me and I can relate. So thank you.