NEW System thoughts

[Karl Larsen]

I think it is getting time to upgrade so this is a starting point for any thoughts you might have.

 

2015 Workstation:

ASUS Sabertooth x99 LGA 2011-V3 (5-yr warranty)

i7 5820K 6-core 3.3GHz

XFX Radeon R9 390X 8GB 512-bit GDDR5 PCI-X 3.0

Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB

Antec HCG 850M

Win 7 Pro

 

 

Primarily an AutoCAD workstation and 3D Studio Max Design 2014 architectural vis and SolidWorks 2012

 

I do not use VRAY - Overclocking will never happen - not even an option.

 

My 2011 Workstation consists of:

ASUS Sabertooth X58 LGA 1366

i7 980 6-core Gulftown 3.3GHz

AMD Firepro V7800 2GB 256 bit GDDR5 (just died this week)

Corsair Vengeance SDRAM DDR3 1600 24GB

Antec High Current Pro HCP 750

Win 7 Pro

 

Any thoughts or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Edited August 19, 2015 by karlar

[Nikolaos M]

Hi Karl.

 

Your current rig is more than decent for a workstation even today. Which program(-s) do you use for rendering at the moment? And, could you please mention your budget? It's a basic thing to know if we are to suggest a new setup.

 

The i7 980X is a decent renderer, especially if overclocked. I don't know why oc is out of the question. It's rather easy to achiece a nice oc with this westmere hexacore with the Sabertooth. Even a 4.0-4.2GHz would give a nice boost in rendering, and of course in everyday's single core performance. You will only need a good AIO cooler. Your psu is solid.

 

As a closing thought, I'd say that in your place I would keep the 980X system as a render node and build for myself a new skylake based system (6700K, Z170 with 32gb of RAM) with a new gpu, which would definitely not be the 390X. This is a total waste of money if you don't play games at the same time. A gtx 970, 4gb would be fine for viewport performance (since Solidworks use OpenGL). Even if you intend to use gpus for rendering in the future, Nvidia is a single way road. AMD is supported by 1-2 gpu rendering machines at the time. The vast majority of gpu renderers use cuda.

[Karl Larsen]

Thanks Nikolaos,

 

I do lots of SolidWorks so viewport performance is important, also, my current rig is a i7-980, NOT an I-7-980X. Not only can you NOT overclock my CPU, I am not interested in doing so for any reason.

 

I was very disappointed that my V7800 graphic card died, I had to replace it immediately (to get some work out) and the only thing I could find at Best Buy the next morning was an R7 260X - I'm afraid to even try a 3D Studio or SolidWorks render on it. This made me wonder if it might be time to upgrade - the graphics cards I can find for my current system are few.

 

I do not have $10,000 to spend on a workstation -- I do architectural and product visualizations a few times a year - 3D Studio Max Design w/ MentalRay which works fine for what I do, and I do lots of SolidWorks modeling.

 

PS. I work on my computer -- I don't play on it! When work is over the last thing I want to do is keep looking at it.

 

 

 

Alternately I could buy either an AMD Firepro W7100 8GB or a W7000 4GB (for my current workstation) but they are PCI X 3.0 and I don't know what the impact of using them in a PCI X 2.0 motherboard is? I would like to have an 8GB card though...

Edited August 19, 2015 by karlar

[numerobis]

Budget?

[Nikolaos M]

The 980 can be overclocked, alright (sorry about the extra X). If you don't want to oc, that's fine. It's just that you are loosing a lot of hidden and unused extra power that would give your cpu an extra boost in performance and keep it up to date.

 

OK, you don't have 10K to spend, but we've already asked you: what's your budget. This is the only way someone could give you a proper advice, and that is to know your use and budget.

 

Last question. What program(-s) do you use for rendering? It's a basic thing to know.

 

And something more. If you don't use gpu renderers like iray, vray RT, octane, redshift, furryball etc. you don't need a 8gb VRAM gpu just for viewport use. 4gb are fine and will be fine for some years to come, I believe.

[Karl Larsen]

Nikolaos - I use 3D Studio Max Design with Mental Ray.

 

I do not want to overclock -- stock is fine. I do not have the time nor the inclination to overclock.

 

Are you saying that an 8GB Graphic card will not improve 3D Studio Max / Mental Ray, or SolidWorks render times? Lets skip the viewport thought for now, I am talking about actually rendering an image from either program.

 

Thank you

[Karl Larsen]

Geez those AMD cards have an awful lot of bad reviews...

 

I know nothing about Nvida cards -- where do I start to find the best bang for buck in the $600 range?

[Nikolaos M]

Mental ray is a renderer that mainly uses the cpu for rendering. In some newer versions, it has a new gpu accelerated GI (global illumination) engine.

 

I have 3ds max 2015 design, and when I use mental ray I am on the cpu side. I don't know if you have tryed out this GI engine.

 

In my opinion, the best card you can buy for about 600$ is the 980Ti with 6gb vram. I wouldn't consider buying it only for viewport use. A gtx 970 wouldn't be so inferior in viewports. Besides, If I was to spend ~600$ for a gpu, I would definitely put some more money on it and go for a used Titan X (the new ones start from about 980$).

Edited August 20, 2015 by nikolaosm

[Karl Larsen]

So this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487142&cm_re=980ti_gtx-_-14-487-142-_-Product ?

 

What improvements will 6GB give me over the 2GB I had (don't laugh - I know more is probably better I just don't know the technical reasons and what, exactly, will improve. Will render times in 3DS improve or just be able to load larger models?)

 

Same question for SolidWorks.

 

 

I also use SketchUp quite a lot but I have given up even asking about it anymore because it is really still a 32-bit program and just starts to suck when the models get too large...

 

Thanks Nikolaos!

[numerobis]

because it is really still a 32-bit program and just starts to suck when the models get too large...

Sketchup is 64bit since v2015 http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-pro/new-in-2015 , but yes it still sucks at large models...

Sketchup in mostly CPU dependent, and since it is still single threaded, you need a CPU with a high single core performance.

[Karl Larsen]

They may SAY it is a 64-bit program but you could never tell!

 

I believe I will order the GTX 980 Ti -- it does have some great reviews.

[Karl Larsen]

Thanks for your help, Nikolaos!

 

I am surprised to see that CGarchitect seems like it might not be as busy as it was back a few years. I confess that I don't spend as much time online myself but I always loved coming to this site when I needed to. I've learned so much from CGa that I would be lost without it.

 

People like you and the long-lost Andrew make it a great place!

 

Thank you.

[Nikolaos M]

The cheapest 980Ti in America right now is this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B010B71MGM/?tag=pcpapi-20 with a reference like cooler, and the cheapest with a custom cooler is the ACX 2 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YDAYOF0/?tag=pcpapi-20.

 

And yes, more vram for viewport use will only be usefull for larger models. Render times have nothing to do with it, if you use cpu rendering machines. In this case, you are interested in more cpu cores and combined core performance (multi-threaded), and lots of RAM.

 

Since you don't mention the budget you are planning to spend, I'll give you an example of what I would purchase today if I had 2K for a WorkStation:

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

 

CPU: Intel Core i7-6700K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($359.99 @ NCIX US)

CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U14S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler ($69.99 @ NCIX US)

Motherboard: Asus Z170-A ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($158.99 @ SuperBiiz)

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws Series 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($219.99 @ Newegg)

Storage: Samsung 850 Pro Series 512GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($232.98 @ Best Buy)

Storage: Western Digital BLACK SERIES 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($119.99 @ Micro Center)

Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB FTW ACX 2.0 Video Card ($324.99 @ NCIX US)

Case: Phanteks Enthoo Primo White ATX Full Tower Case ($229.99 @ Newegg)

Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA P2 750W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($126.66 @ Newegg)

Total: $1843.57

 

I would keep the i7 980 westmere system as a render node.

 

Not everything in the above setup is best vfm, but it's quality stuff.

Ex. the Phanteks Enthoo Primo is one of the best cases around right now, the Samsung Pro is the fastest sata3 ssd in the market, Noctua U14S is a great cpu cooler and one of the quietest of the market, the psu is top notch etc.

[Karl Larsen]

Thanks for the info Nikolaos. I am going to keep the workstation I have now and just replace my dead Firepro, but I am still up in the air about 4GB or 6GB.

 

The way I see it, the cost of building a new workstation from the ground up vs. the performance I can expect, isn't enough to justify the cost just yet. I believe that the 6-cores of i7-980 3.33GHz Gulftown that I have is still better than 4-cores of 4.0GHz ?

[Nikolaos M]

The i7 980 can't keep up with a newer i7 like 6700k both in single and multi threaded performance. The 6700K would be largely faster in single threaded performance (95% of every day use, that is), and slightly faster (I guess something like 10-15%) in multi (like rendering, encoding etc).

 

If you intend to pay 600$ for a gpu only to have 6gb of VRAM, make some more savings and go for the Titan X with 12gb of VRAM.

[Karl Larsen]

Rendering is the only area in which I wish my workstation was faster, but not for $2,000

 

Being able to work on very large models in SolidWorks & 3DS without having to dumb down the view settings would be nice, so that is where I am thinking the 6GB might be worth it - presuming I understand this correctly?

 

 

Once I am satisfied with a model in 3DS I can hit render and go to bed

[numerobis]

They may SAY it is a 64-bit program but you could never tell!

 

??? Are you trying to make a joke or is this just trolling?

If SU takes more than 2GB RAM i KNOW that it is using 64bit and why should they just say it?

Strange thread... you're talking about 5820K and expensive video cards, but you're not willing to give a budget. Nikolaos lists you all the parts and then after 15 posts you finally come out with the conclusion that you don't want to spend the least amount of money for a workstation with 32GB and a midrange video card, which is what Nikolaos posted. Are you serious?!?

[Karl Larsen]

Nickolaos and I have had a very productive, polite, dialogue, and he has been extremely helpful.

 

 

You are obviously communications challenged, so get lost.

[Karl Larsen]

Well, I elected to save what money I could until a few more years pass, and then start from the ground up. So, this is what I bought...

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487079

 

I am guessing that my render times will be the same but I should see some improvement in SolidWorks viewports? Do I have that right, Nickolaos?

 

Thanks for all your help!

[Nikolaos M]

I haven't got experience with Solidworks, but I use Rhino, which also uses OpenGL and I can say that with my gtx780 everything works creamy smooth in viewports. The 980 should behave much better, I guess.

[joelmcwilliam]

Nickolaos and I have had a very productive, polite, dialogue, and he has been extremely helpful.

 

 

You are obviously communications challenged, so get lost.

 

Dude, that's not nice of you. He may be of great help for. I think more than you realize.

 

Let me get things right. Your gpu died, but the rest of you workstation is fine? Or are the rendering times also to slow? And you don't use the gpu for rendering, but only for the viewports?

 

Swapping a gpu is the easiest thing to do. If you don't want to spend a lot of money and you don't know if buying a very expensive gpu will give you any advantage in your viewports, why don't you just try first a cheaper card, say a modern nvidia gtx 150-200 dollar card and see if you like it. It may perform better than you think. (you may even try a uses (asus) gtx 660, if you want to go really cheap). You can just buy a cheaper one and if you don't like just send it back. As long as you don't do gpu rendering, you don't need all that massive vram on the gpu.

 

How big are your models?

 

And if you want to buy a complete new pc, you don't have to go for a expensive mobo. The cheaper ones will perform the same.

Edited August 22, 2015 by joelmcwilliam

[Karl Larsen]

About 4-years ago when I was on here regularly, your friend, numerobis, started some drama and name-calling with me over a topic I have long since forgotten. If you read this entire thread you might even notice that I completely ignored his posts. If he could get to a place where he could do the same for me, I am sure I could get by without his expertise...

 

I've listed the programs I use, and the extent of the work I do -- I am not the hardware expert that some of y'all are, but it shouldn't be too hard to recommend a direction for me to take, based on what I've posted?

 

After considering Nickoloas' recommendations, I spoke to one of the "geeks" at Newegg (who sounded pretty knowlegable about 3DS Studio and SolidWorks) and since he was able to look at the specs for my existing workstation (all of which I purchased from Newegg) I decided to go with the 4GB Card I bought. Considering some of the technological advances, it should, at least, be somewhat better than the card I had?

 

So, it should be here near the end of next week.

 

I DID buy a cheapo card to replace my dead card -- an R7260X 2GB DDR5 128bit -- but it wont support Realview in SolidWorks. It works for normal computing. Hopefully my new 4GB card will be here in time for me to make the 14-day return policy at BestBuy for the cheapo card.

 

So there you have it!

 

Thank you for your help.

Edited August 22, 2015 by karlar

[joelmcwilliam]

Well, some info that's just handy to know:

 

First the cpu:

 

for modelling, since you said that you do a lot of modelling in solid, it would be very nice to have a cpu with a good single core performance. So then a i7 4790k or the newer i7 6700k or the i7 5820K (maybe slightly overclocked to bump up the single core speed) or even a overclocked g3258 (overclocked as high as possible) would be very nice. Single core performance is what you want for modelling. For rendering, well the more cores the happier you will be.

 

Have a look at this: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/142?vs=1542

 

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/cpu/cpu-2011-summary-p2.html

 

Then the gpu:

 

Solidworks works just fine with gaming cards for the viewports, but i am only familiar with nvidia cards (gtx). So you don't need a pro card perse. I don't know about the amd gaming cards. Have you looked on the internet if there is a workaround for you current amd card? I don't don't why the amd card doesn't work and I am too lazy to look it up.

 

For not to expensive workstations I always look for a i7 intel cpu and a nvidia gpu.

 

I do know that solidworks works fine with even the cheaper gtx, like a 750ti. A gtx 660/670/760/770/780/960/970/980 will be just as fine. But since you already ordered your 980, be happy with it. You might want to swap the amd for a gtx 750ti and see if you like it and how it performs next to the 980 and what the maximum workload of the gpu is. The cheaper pro cards will be just fine, since you're not gaming on your workstation.

 

Here's what solidworks recommend: http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/videocardtesting.html

 

and more links: http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/shareyourscore.htm

 

https://forum.solidworks.com/thread/90663

 

https://forum.solidworks.com/thread/78834?tstart=0 (hardware recommendations are a little outdated)

 

https://www.google.nl/search?q=tom%27s+hardware+solidworks+benchmark&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIi6TLvfK9xwIVZDnbCh2kBg6H&biw=1024&bih=537&gws_rd=cr&ei=Dg3ZVdiME-m07AaB14KQCg#tbm=isch&q=tom%27s+hardware+solidworks+&imgrc=YCLsMI9DQRpDSM%3A

 

And last:

 

do you have a ssd in your current system, if not, I would highly recommend it.

 

Don't know if the above is of any good, but I had some time to kill.

[Karl Larsen]

Thanks Joel!

 

I'm still not sure about the "single thread" rendering thing??? Whenever I've done a render in 3DS Max, all 12 of my I-7 980 threads are maxed out according to my Task Manager???

 

The only two complaints I have is when a model becomes too large for SketchUp (but that is a SketchUp limitation), or when viewing models in 3DS viewports with reality turned on! (I call it reality because I just don't recall the name for making the viewport show shadows and sun and all that, but I know how to turn it on and off).

 

I usually do small render outputs in 3DS (so they are fast) until things look kinda right and then do a medium render and fine tune, then do my outputs for Photoshop layering.

 

Anyways I am just not into knowing all the lingo -- I just need it to work!

 

SolidWorks was great with my dead card so it should be better with the new card, I hope!

[joelmcwilliam]

Thanks Joel!

 

I'm still not sure about the "single thread" rendering thing??? Whenever I've done a render in 3DS Max, all 12 of my I-7 980 threads are maxed out according to my Task Manager???

 

 

Lol. When rendering all the cores/threads (6 cores and each core has two threads) are maxed out. That's how the program is written, to utilize all the cores it can get a hold on when rendering. Now look in he task manager how many cores/threads you use when modelling. Many cores of your i7 are doing sleepy sleepy when modelling. But when the rendering starts they are right awake.

 

When you have your new card just share your thoughts with us about how it performs with your software. You did go for the evga 980? Solid card, cool and quiet. I also heard good things about evga customer support. And now you also got a hell of a gaming rig.