Game Engines?

[alexmonteiro1]

Hi all,

 

So I have been looking for a way to get real time interactions into my companies presentations. My work flow is 3ds max /vray. I have started to do some panoramic stuff with Pano2vr. They are happy with that output. I can make panoramic and put them on the web or into a pdf file for clients while still maintaining the high quality that they are used to seeing with vray. What I am really trying to do ( for internal use and client presentations ) is have the ability to make changes in real time. Something like this video example http://panorender.com/. I have looked into things like Cl3ver which give me the functionality but not the quality I am looking for. I also looked at Sketchfab which the quality is good but not the functionality.

 

This has led me to looking into some game engines. Unreal and Stingray. I know Unreal has the functionality but the work flow and process to get things up and running looks very long and does not follow my workflow process. Stingray, I would think would be a easier work flow but I really havent played around with it and its so new that its hard to find good info on it that is not a 3 min demo from Autodesk.

 

I was wondering how any of you that are in the arch/viz fields are tackling this issue, any info or feedback would be great.

 

Thanks!

[philippelamoureux]

This is the quality that is achievable with ue4 right now. With skills of course.

 

 

I haven't tried unity or stingray but I can tell you ue4 is getting easier and better everyday! It's not that hard when you start everything from scratch yourself. It's very tough when you have to use messy or overly complex architects or designers models tho.

 

You just have to learn how lightmaps work and model your scene accordingly (think modular). After that you unwrap your UVs (97% can be done with scripts like steamroller for 3ds max), apply your textures and export to ue4. You can do all the rest in unreal.

[alexmonteiro1]

I agree with you Philippe. I have spent a just a few days straight in UE and I am already feeling much more comfortable. The amount of resources out there on it is great.

 

I am still confused a bit on how light maps work and how to actually light my scenes ( searching for good learning materials on both of those topics ) but I think its just a matter of time.

 

One question for you is how can you save out materials in UE and to reuse in other projects? For example can I have a library of just wood materials, just carpets, just metals etc etc. That would speed up things as well.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

A

[beestee]

You just have to learn how lightmaps work and model your scene accordingly (think modular). After that you unwrap your UVs (97% can be done with scripts like steamroller for 3ds max), apply your textures and export to ue4. You can do all the rest in unreal.

 

I saw some things the other day that kinda blew my mind, I think the days of lightmaps are numbered. VXGI and VXAO requires major GPU grunt and offers barely acceptable framerates as of today, but still it shows the direction that this train is headed in. Once this voxel lighting tech becomes built into unreal and we have GPU tech beyond Paschal, it will become one of the most user friendly platforms for rendering in my opinion. The only thing missing then would be a dedicated model creation toolset, but Epic has made UE4 incredibly simple to bring assets into from all sorts of existing modeling packages...dedicated modeling tools would just be the cherry on top.

[alexmonteiro1]

Cool Ben. I will defiantly check that out.

 

A

[philippelamoureux]

You could start with ue4arch's lighting tutorial part 1 : It explains the basics.

 

https://ue4arch.com/ue4archs-unreal-engine-4-lighting-workflow-part-1/

 

And in this thread, Rafael explain how you should model your scene and apply lightmaps for better results. The numbers show the each walls lightmap resolution for good quality shadows.

 

Good luck!

[alexmonteiro1]

OK. That looks awesome! Let me ask a stupid question, where is it in Unreal? Is it a separate add on or plugin that I need to get? Is it through my graphics card?

 

Thanks

[philippelamoureux]

Not sure what you mean by ''where is it''... well, it's just unreal engine 4, no plugin, no add-ons.

You gotta model in a modelling software and import your scene in ue4. After that you're good to go.

[alexmonteiro1]

I am sorry Philippe. I was referring to Ben's comment on the VXGI. I was trying to use that function and follow the link to the example he showed.

[philippelamoureux]

For VXGI you need a custom version of ue4 made my Nvidia. The source is available on their github. You'll need to download it and build the engine with Microsoft visual studio. It's not that hard at all.

 

you can find it here : https://github.com/NvPhysX/UnrealEngine/tree/VXGI-4.12

[alexmonteiro1]

OK that sounds scary to me but I will give it a try.

 

The issues is your link comes up dead ( 404 ). Actually doing some research all the links that I find are the same. I cant seam to find it anywhere.

[alexmonteiro1]

Sorry, figured it out. I had to link my github with epic account. I will give this a shot.

 

Thanks!

[philippelamoureux]

Ah yea sorry I forgot to mention that hehe! On the github page you'll find the instructions about how to build the engine. I didn't have any experience doing this and I got it the 1st time! Very straightfoward.

 

I might give it another try. Here's a vxgi test scene.

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by philippelamoureux

[mirkonev]

This topic could maybe benefit from an update with state of lighting/GI solutions in currently wide-spread game engines. My two cents

 

Generally, solutions that aim to show scene light distribution/GI can be separated into:

- precomputed or 'baked': these solutions precompute the light distribution in the scene and any lights or geometry added after it will not affect scene light distribution. Example (notice that you can perfectly well program interactive actions such as changing colors of walls, but scene light distribution will not change accordingly):

Best quality / low cost > VR ready / no dynamic changes in light distribution.

 

- precomputed real-time: this is the term used to describe solutions that precompute relations between scene parts and then use this data in realtime to change light distribution if, for example, one big surface changes color and starts to bounce back more light or a new light is added to the scene. Changing the geometry is not possible in runtime as relations between parts (visibility, weight factors) are precomputed. Example (notice how bounced light behind the sofa changes as it's color is changed at 0:23 or a Day&Night cycle at 2:34):

Unity Interactive Scene

Good quality / high cost > VR ready at least GTX970 / dynamic changes supported besides moving geometry (you can perfectly well move geometry in runtime of course, but light dist. will not change accordingly).

 

- fully real-time: solutions that support all changes on the scene in runtime and reflect those changes in light distribution: changed geometry (height of walls, wider window, moved sofa), materials (floor is now from dark wood so reflects less light) and lights (adding new ones, changing current ones). Example (Unity's SEGI Beta solution, Unreal's VXGI development branch):

and previously linked VXGI example videos

Good quality / very high cost > Unity SEGI Beta used in successful VR tests, not sure about VXGI / all dynamic runtime changes are reflected in scene light distribution

 

State per game engine:

- Unreal: release version contains precomputed solution 'Lightmass', separate development branch has fully realtime NVidia's 'VXGI'

- Unity: release version comes with licensed third party solution 'Enlighten' that offers both precomputed and precomputed real-time functionality. Also, an independent developer has created a fully real-time solution for Unity: Sonic Ether's SEGI Beta on Asset Store

Above linked example video with SEGI Beta.

- CryEngine: has a fully real-time solution, not sure about other solutions

- Stingray: has a precomputed solution, not sure about other solutions

[RyderSK]

This topic could maybe benefit from an update with state of lighting/GI solutions in currently wide-spread game

- CryEngine: has a fully real-time solution, not sure about other solutions

- Stingray: has a precomputed solution, not sure about other solutions

 

CE has proprietary LPV and VXGI integration, both production ready unlike Unreal's 3rd party integration. Both useless for archviz of course.

 

Stingray has Beast, same as Unreal's Lightmass, is Irradiance cache + Photon based. They really ought to get rid of that photon crap :/

[mirkonev]

CE has proprietary LPV and VXGI integration, both production ready unlike Unreal's 3rd party integration. Both useless for archviz of course.

 

Stingray has Beast, same as Unreal's Lightmass, is Irradiance cache + Photon based. They really ought to get rid of that photon crap :/

 

Beast lightmapper proved very well in Unity versions below 5. New Enlighten is much less reliable and predictable, to the point that older Beast got hacked into 5+ Unity versions.

Why are LPV and VXGI useless for archviz? Is the resolution too low, are they too rend. expensive?

[RyderSK]

Yup, Enlighten isn't worth the hype some people consider it. It's still partially precomputed, yet nowhere near visual quality of full precomputed offline solution.

 

Light Propagation Volumes is the most primitive technique out there, it was in CryEngine since first Crysis game, it's barely sufficient for some gradient changes in large outdoor areas. While Crytek has a very advanced version of it (and Lionhead was building its own before it was sacked by Microsoft so I think this is the end of it for Unreal's integration), you can only have detail of particular size. It can't do varied at same time. It looks like very crude AO in outdoor, and like nothing is happening indoor (plus brutal light leaking). Maybe ok for high-end strategy games in future.

 

VXGI is better. It's capable of doing both bounced light and speculars. It can do varied detail, and as small as you're willing to sacrifice performance. Yet, for archviz it's more artifact prone that the poorliest Irradiance cache look. Splotches, Artifacts, light leaks, etc.. and noise. One way to use it as again as CryEngine does, they only use the light bounce of it (and only single bounce I think), and smooth it, which makes it look kind of ok-to-great in outdoor games with rich textures (Imagine Witcher3, but only the upcoming Kingdom Come has it).

But if you use the one in current Unreal branch, which is kind of half-way there integration from nVidia, you see what it looks. Artifacts, noise, general ugliness and expensive.

 

 

People want the same quality from real-time as from offline. We're used to nice, smooth, clean results of Vray and Corona. Real-time GI solutions can't provide 5perc. of that look, not now, not in next 5 years. But maybe then....

Until then though, we're stuck with precomputed GI and planar + screen-space reflections for best visual result.

Edited September 21, 2016 by RyderSK

[landrvr1]

Architecture and design firms are using each one of the solutions mentioned here. We need to be careful and remember that a vast number of real time scenarios are shown in the DESIGN phase - either schematic or design development - where the requirement for ultra realistic, perfect GI, artifact free results is much less important than would normally be the case.

 

Saying that any of these tools are useless because of perceived lower quality is disingenuous. Perfectionists in visualization may not like it, but the reality is quite simple: The experience trumps quality at this point in time. More importantly, the experience PLUS the power of the medium as a DESIGN TOOL, trumps quality every time.

 

The other aspect of real time tools that they are in no way meant to replace still renderings or classic animated films. There's an exact time and phase of any project where one, some, or all of these mediums make sense to use. Finding that proper balance - to support the design and project narrative you are trying to communicate - is the key. Real time is often being used to communicate a certain aspect of a project, and is massively growing in popularity with clients. They love it.

 

Having said all that, I see plenty of examples of real time being used way out of context, at the wrong phase of a project, as a substitute for traditional renderings, etc etc etc.

 

My suggestion is that we as artists should first figure out the best practices for the medium, then worry about whether or not the package of our choice handles speculars correctly.

[mirkonev]

My experience for now is also steering real time rendered presentations into the design phase of the project. And definitely I agree that due to different roles and nature of offline and real time solutions both of them have a place in the project already today. With a tendency that real time solutions have taken some roles of offline mediums and, as quality increases, keep taking more of them.

 

Currently, my typical scenario is where small to medium sized projects can not be well thought out or initial ideas can not be grasped by end clients from 2D plans. Then, architects and designers ask for a VR (real-time) solution to help in communication and design decision.

One major pitfall at the moment is material exchange. A standardized widely supported format for material definition would really ease up use of different mediums for different purposes at different time. I hope for Substance Designer files to become that standard.

 

P.S. Regarding quality of real time GI distribution, here is an example of details that can be achieved at the moment (image by Alex Lovett using Enlighten):

[landrvr1]

mirkonev, nicely said. Completely agree about Substance Designer - it would be wonderful if that platform becomes the cross-platform format.

 

I see you are new to posting in the cgarchitect forum, and I sincerely hope you stick around and continue to contribute to this topic! I've greatly enjoyed this thread and the insight you've brought.

 

While critical analysis of render quality is a good thing, I'm far more interested in what can be done with this medium and how it can be leveraged to tell better stories in the work we do.

[mirkonev]

@landvr1 ...

Thanks, quality posts on this forum, definitely plan to stick around

 

Storytelling is something that VR mediums have proven to be good at. Almost all currently available content for both Vive and Oculus are far more of a 'experience' than a game. Even though it steers from this forum topic a bit, I found this blog post very insightful about storytelling in VR:

https://storystudio.oculus.com/en-us/blog/5-lessons-learned-while-making-lost/

 

Would definitely like to hear from some architect/designer his opinion on how and would he leverage storytelling in his work...