Linear workflow

[darkodobric]

Hello everyone,

 

Is there someone here who REALLY understands linear workflow and compositing. I say REALLY because ALL the tutorials on subject work for me, until some point. All of them are about theory behind LWF and all that stuff but I simply cannot finalize my work.

 

Saving from Vray frame buffer, at 16bit or 32bit channels is ok, the main passes like spec, refl, refr, GI, and light set under ADD mode in photoshop outputs the same as beauty. Thats ok. But trying to save 16 or 32bit as 8bit pic (because I cannot upload in my online portfolio that size as 16/32bit have ) are destroying my image, and HDR toning window is prompting me.

 

In case of saving for example as png, or 8bit in VFB, it doesnt have the same result as beauty when I ADD those elements together. I tried saving 8bit images with gamma=1 this time, and results are perfect (but too dark, I expected to be able to change them at the end), adding passes reproduces the beauty, but when I am done, image is too dark. How do I add gamma od 2.2 onto the result. I tried it through gamma adjustment, set it to 2.2 but it bands and destroys the colors of photograph.

 

Why is it so complicated to get this seemingly easy task to work

[darkodobric]

I forgot to mention, 8bit image pass compositing obviously doesnt resemble the beauty pass from vray render so I guess something isnt right if that occurs. However saving as 16/32 bit image passes and then compositing, resembles the beauty, but besides that I dont know how to save it as 8bit image, many features in photoshop dont work with half float or full float. Selecting color range for instance. So, whats the point of working in half float, if I cannot use select color range to control the MtlID and ObjectID pass. Rendering those two passes makes no sense. Do I have to mannualy select those colors? It will take hours to do that.

[James Vella]

I wrote a short tutorial on linear workflow if you are interested (However I don't recommend the workflow):

http://jamesvella.blogspot.com.au/p/tutorial.html

 

 

FYI - Common practise is to work in sRGB workflow these days (just leave the max defaults as they are 2.2 gamma). Save out your images as .exr full float 32bit. This will save out the image as linear, the gamma is taken care of for you and when you bring this image into a composite program it will display in sRGB space correctly (as it did in the VFB with sRGB enabled). Dual benefit - exr's dont lose colour like pngs or jpgs.

 

Bring in your MtlID and ObjectID as 8bit images. You dont need more range for selecting these passes.

 

Working in photoshop is NOT compositing. Its quick, its easy to use for the basics, but I wouldn't be doing any depth/colour work with it. Nuke or Fusion handle this information much better and give you the full range without banding or using smart objects to retain depth.

 

If you want to Matte things in post, i suggest you use the matte render pass and have your selected items rendered as RGB channels. This gives you a true selection with anti aliasing.

[James Vella]

Actually i found an article today on using a raw depth pass for photoshop. This would be useful for your workflow

 

http://www.3dartistonline.com/news/2015/05/how-do-i-render-glass-in-corona/?utm_content=buffer9aad5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[darkodobric]

Thank you very much James, I will have a look at it. And what do you think of After FX for compositing, cuz I dont have Nuke/Fusion software?

[Francisco Penaloza]

Photoshop is a great tool but, it does not have full coverage of 32 bits images. Maybe because it is designed more to photography instead of compositing.

Having said this, there is work around, and I mentioned a few times in this mere forum, you can select your beauty pass or all you passes that combined make your beauty and covert them to smart objects, then change the bit dept of Photoshop from 32 to 16, and then you can use all the tool in Photoshop. if you need to adjust anything in your original image just double click and then you are again in a 32 bit format.

Now this is not optimal of course, but it does work.

after that you'll be able to save in to jpg 8 bit no problems.

 

If you want to fully embrace 32 bit workflow, and have the computer to handle it. you can use After Effects. there was a strong trend not too long ago when everybody was using after Effect to do post in renderings. Most of the tools work in 32 bits.

Nuke is way to expensive, Fusion is free and easy to learn. You can do everything that After Effects does and much more.

[darkodobric]

Thank you very much. I guess this is by far the most complicated thing I stumbled upon in 3D.

[darkodobric]

I just saw the prices for Nuke and I am furious. How can software that does only compositing be more expensive than maya or max, which can do everything from modeling to animation and VFX. That is truly ridiculous

[Francisco Penaloza]

it is an expensive software in deed, but if you understand the environment that NUKE or similar programs are use, you'll see it value.

Using NUKE only for arch viz images it is way too much.

That's way Fusion and After Effect are a better option but with a proper workflow and know how Photoshop can go a long way.

[James Vella]

Regarding working linear - saving your images as 32bit .exr will be enough.

 

You can use whatever software you like i use after effects and photoshop for archviz as well. Ae for composite and photoshop for retouching and painting. Just be aware of the limitations.

 

The real benefit to nuke is that its a 3d environment. U can import ur cameras or point clouds or real depth data if your into that. You can even light and render your scenes in it... thats for another discussion i suppose.

 

As a side suggestion - reading the free nuke manual gave me a good unserstanding of linear workflow as it explains the basic concepts of bit range, gamma and grading. The principles apply regardless of software.

 

If you wanted to break it down to a basic concept. Linear workflow is just a way of saying - however the image/texture was created with a camera or photoshop - maintain the mid tones of the image from input to 3d to output of the final rendered image. It really doesn't matter after its output, if your materials look how you intended then you are done, you can always adjust the final gamma for the highlights mid tones and shadows in post as you don't bake in the gamma curve with .exr

Edited June 15, 2016 by redvella

[darkodobric]

Its not for another discussion James, I wanted to know why is it so expensive. I never heard of any software pricing of 6000+ pounds plus maintenance and other expenses. What salary can buy that along with Max and auxiliaries like photoshop mudbox etc.

I downloaded Fusion and I will experiment with it alongside AfterFx.

I was getting a picture of LWF though, according to what you guys said, I just didn't know technicalities .

 

I didnt upload yet a samples. This is before(darker) and after compositing in AfterFx(with white background). I hope it is appealing for an eye. Suggestions are welcome

[James Vella]

Well, for non commercial use Nuke is free to use/learn with an output limitation of 1920x1080. You can see for yourself why its so expensive.

 

Have a look at some of the features https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/nuke/features/

 

If you use multiple packages zbrush, adobe suite etc it can get expensive... but this is really not the point. The point is Nuke (and most other node driven software) is visual coding. Once you set up your templates you are creating a pipeline for yourself or many artists - the list of things you can do is quite long - ill give you a short example and let you research the rest.

eg. You can have it so that once you complete your model for a turnaround, it gets sent to nuke to render a turnaround, apply all your render elements for you as a 'base' setup and spit out a .mov file to the server somewhere - your not concerned with lighting consistency, material shader setups, you can even go as far as to UV map and texture the item within Nuke...

 

For a sole artist this may be overkill, and you can get away with what works for your budget and workflow, however Nuke is not just a 3D package, its a compositor, a grade tool and anything you can possibly think of regarding 2D/3D workflow. It has bleeding edge tools, GPU integration and can render over Deadline (externally leaving you to continue compositing while rendering).

 

Salary is another topic entirely, but having the right tool for the right job can save you money. Im sure you can relate, I would assume you buy 3D stock all the time instead of modelling,texturing etc each item in your scene. These items save you money, save you time, give you high quality content and reduces your over heads.

 

edit: Lets say it saves 3 of your artists 1 hour per day (so they are not focusing on anything but modelling). Lets say each artist is being payed $50 per hour. You have just saved yourself $750 per week on lighting/rendering/output for daily review. in 10 weeks the software has paid for itself.

 

edit2; Also, as a business owner, software is a tax offset, this can be beneficial in some situations.

Edited June 15, 2016 by redvella

[darkodobric]

Thank you very much James, I am taking notes and saving your advices as if I am on a class. I will check it out. What do you think about the ring?

Again, thanks for everything

[Francisco Penaloza]

Its not for another discussion James, I wanted to know why is it so expensive. I never heard of any software pricing of 6000+ pounds plus maintenance and other expenses. What salary can buy that along with Max and auxiliaries like photoshop mudbox etc.

 

Well NUKE is not developed for you or me, it was create withing big production studios and that their market, big production environment. where changes comes and comes, and Director and DP and LD and producer all of them have inputs, so changes has to be done on the fly.

Their workflow is complete different from traditional Arch Viz. for that crowd NUKE make seance. Price is not the point.

 

The ring, modeling wise looks great, composition or presentation, not much.

[James Vella]

Francisco is correct, its better for large companies.

 

I also agree with him about the ring, modelling looks tight! Materials/lighting needs work. Also because its just floating on a white background some context would be nice

[darkodobric]

Thanks Francisco, how should I improve it?

[darkodobric]

Thank you very much James and Francisco for your time and help. It was really helpful

[simonm]

Ive seen people doing post for archviz in after effects - seems so much harder to me? Or am i just crap lol!

[James Vella]

Once you know the tools its essentially the same. Only reason I started using After Effects instead of Photoshop was the fact that once you update your render output (if the output is in the same location as before), your post is already done. With photoshop, you need to replace footage for each smart object, or just re-create that layer and overlay mode...

 

I rather do the post once. Every time I update my render all my masks, render elements, overlay modes, final grading etc are already done for me and I just spit back out the final image.

 

I watch artists do this in my own workplace who refuse to pick up After Effects. They constantly are trying to replicate their previous post with their new render elements... each to their own I guess.

[simonm]

Thanks James.... sounds interesting... know of any resource to assist with that method?

 

One of my favourite artists, Adan, shows how he does it - how awesome is this!?

 

Once you know the tools its essentially the same. Only reason I started using After Effects instead of Photoshop was the fact that once you update your render output (if the output is in the same location as before), your post is already done. With photoshop, you need to replace footage for each smart object, or just re-create that layer and overlay mode...

 

I rather do the post once. Every time I update my render all my masks, render elements, overlay modes, final grading etc are already done for me and I just spit back out the final image.

 

I watch artists do this in my own workplace who refuse to pick up After Effects. They constantly are trying to replicate their previous post with their new render elements... each to their own I guess.

[James Vella]

Yes, that is a great example Pixel Man, that's essentially what I am talking about.

 

The method being, if you over write your previous render, when you open after effects it will update the footage/post for you. Just be aware of your masks being updated, if your using any for color adjustments or overlays. If you keep your workflow methodical you wont run into issues.

Edited June 16, 2016 by redvella

[simonm]

ahh i get it! makes perfect sense.

 

The only thing that im baffled with after effects post pro is (compared to Photoshop):

Masking - In PS i use a WIRECOLOUR mask, colour pick the colour and off i go. The only way i see this working accurately in AE is with multimatte material (im talking vray language here). You can also use a soft brush to add/remove masks and AE it seems you use the PEN tool?

 

 

Yes, that is a great example Pixel Man, that's essentially what I am talking about.

 

The method being, if you over write your previous render, when you open after effects it will update the footage/post for you. Just be aware of your masks being updated, if your using any for color adjustments or overlays. If you keep your workflow methodical you wont run into issues.

[James Vella]

Multimatte is the preferred way as you can single out 1 channel...

 

However I use wirecolor all the time myself (cant be arsed making mattes when doing half res stuff). Color Key is the Effect you are looking for, you just color pick the color like you would in photoshop, adjust the threshold if you need and you are done. (Sometimes if two colors in the scene have that same wirecolor you will need to create another mask to remove that one, [like my sink and wall frame below] which is why its easier using mattes in animation instead of wirecolors where you may need to make additional mattes)

 

You can also use the PEN tool as a marquee or the Rectangle/Circle shapes at the top.

 

This is me just adding a Color Key, using the eye dropper, and then putting an adjustment layer with an extreme hue adjust so you can see the effect.

 

 

 

 

[Francisco Penaloza]

Thanks Francisco, how should I improve it?

 

for that type of work always try to use real photography as sample or references, then depending of your clients need, or what you are trying to showcase, will be your final setup.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jewelry+photography&espv=2&biw=1291&bih=1133&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiShMHi9avNAhVS72MKHa_kD8gQ_AUIBigB

[simonm]

with images attached too - your a beautiful man!!! thanks for the detailed explanation

 

Definitely interested in giving AE a go......... im using 100% linear in 3DS max/Vray and then do basic adjustments in post pro photoshop (ie specular/reflection passes set to linear dodge add and then i convert it to 16 bit and do the final adjustments....

 

I dunno, i feel as though my old days of reinhard/exponential - my life was easier