Newbie to the site

[andrewleach]

Morning all.

 

 

I'm new to this site and tbh to computer builds.

I'm looking at purchasing a new machine based solely on 3D modelling / Rendering.

 

 

Currently I use Revit to create OKay-ish renders but need to take the next step to get the next level results I see on the Image gallery on this site, so need to take the plunge into 3DS Max which is a whole new ball game.

 

 

Right, back to the question I need answering.

Can someone please provide me with advice on the spec below. Any input would be great, cheers for your help.

 

 

Intel Core i7 5960X Extreme Haswell-E Unlocked 8 Core Socket 2011-3

 

 

MSI X99S SLI PLUS Intel S2011-3 ATX Motherboard DDR4

 

 

Corsair 64GB (8x8GB) Vengeance LPX DDR4 Black 2666Mhz

 

 

PNY Nvidia Quadro K5000 Graphics Card

 

 

NZXT Switch 810 White Large Tower Silent Case

 

 

Coolermaster V1000 PSU 1000W 80+ Gold upto 93% efficiency

 

 

2x Seagate 2TB SATA III Performance Desktop Hard Drive 7200rpm (4TB total)

 

 

24x LG SATA DVD RW Writer Disc Drive with Black Front

 

 

Corsair H60 Hydro Series Liquid CPU Cooler

 

 

Samsung 500GB 840 EVO Basic SSD SATA

[joelmcwilliam]

Hi andrew,

 

looks good.

 

But could you explain for each individual component why you made the choices you made.

[andrewleach]

Hi Joel,

 

 

Cheers for replying. Sorry I should have said in my breakdown.

The parts are from a PC that has already been built and for sale through a company that sell rendering workstations for 3D modelling etc but i'm not too gem'd up on all this components stuff. I didn't want to jump into buying the pc if it wasn't up to scratch so was asking for a second opinion so to speak.

 

 

I know that Autodesk specify Quadro cards in most of their requirements.

[Nikolaos M]

A custom build that's much better imo

PCPartPicker part list

[andrewleach]

Nikolaos, thanks for your reply. Before I buy anything I like to get other peoples opinions which is great as the last thing I want to do is buy something which cost quite a lot of cash not to withstand what I will be using it for.

Cheers again

[Nikolaos M]

Let me explain my thinking, if you don't mind:

1. 5960X vs 6900K. The second one is newer and supports 2400MHz Ram speeds natively.

2. Don't buy an MSI board. Put your money on a classic Asus or Gigabyte. Even Asrock is fine in this socket.

3. A K5000 is too expensive for its performance and is of a previous architecture (Kepler). The 1070 would be sufficient for most 3d software and even for heavy tasks.

4. You don't need a 1000W psu to run this build. A 650/750W would more than enough.

5. The 840 EVO is an older model and had some serious problems in real use. Samsung has released 2-3 newer models since then.

6. You'll need a really good AIO cooler to cool well an 8core processor like the 5960X/6900K.

 

That's all for now. Wait for more advice. You're spending a lot of money on this build and you must be sure to invest it in the right parts. You could also build a 2P system with second hand Xeons (v2-v3) with the budget. I don't know if rendering or modeling is more important inside your workflow.

[Dimitris Tolios]

I am inline with Nikolaos on this one.

Revit and Autodesk in general do a poor job following H/W advances, especially in GPUs...look at what my Revit 2017 warns me about:

 

 

And the K4200 is very close to the speed of the K5000...but Revit is "unaware" of that, uses it as any other GTX or Quadro with "basic" D3D drivers...$800+ cards that perform no better than a GTX 670...yeap, that's what these cards are under the hood, a GK104 card with similar performance as a GTX 670...a 960 or 1060 will be massively faster than either. And massively cheaper too.

 

Why do I have a K4200? That's my work PC and at that time had to be ordered by Dell and the only choices were Quadro's of that generation...K2200 / K4200 / K5200...I was free to buy the K5200, but personally thought it would be a complete waste of money...upgraded the SSD size (should have gotten a bigger one) and saved them a few $K.

 

Don't think 3DS does as bad a job as Revit utilizing CPUs, but doesn't do a lot better either...just go for a GTX.

 

---

 

One thing I would recommend for all people going for 32GB of DDR4 RAM or more, is to use 16GB modules, for 2 (or 3) main reasons:

 

1) If you fill all your slots when you could fill half of them for practically the same price, you are blocking yourself from a future upgrade. Sure, 64GB won't be surpassed anytime soon for ArchViz, but why go for 8x8GB when you can go for 4x16GB for the same $?

2) Often filling all of the dimm slots causes issues with some chipsets, and its a huge pain to troubleshoot 8x dimms.

3) DDR4 is here to stay...in the future if RAM requirements go up and 32GB start being "too little", 16GB dimms will retain more of their value as most mainstream computers only have 4 slots.

 

Also, "overclocking" the RAM is very easy...you don't need to be limited to your CPU's native speed as much, at least with the 6xxx CPUs that seem to be boosting a RAM controller that can actually handle faster RAM speeds than the 5xxx s2011-3 did.

The first DDR4 CPUs, like the 5960X (and 5820 / 5930), had to compromise on RAM clocks if you were to overclock the CPU, so going for super expensive fast kits of memory was counterproductive: if you are to pick between 500MHz @ RAM speed or 200-300MHz @ CPU, the CPU clock returns massively more performance, every time*.

 

I personally ended up with 2x16GB Corsair LPX DDR4 3200 RAM as it was on sale (for the same price as 2666 16GB sticks ~$160 on sale @ Newegg) and my 6700K overcloked @ 4.6GHz runs them fine @ 3200.

 

*With the exception of an APU, but then RAM speed is aiding the IGP graphic performance, not the CPU part itself.

Edited September 2, 2016 by dtolios

[Nikolaos M]

I agree Dimitris, but I personally had issues with RAM stability. I generally suggest basic speeds with lower timings (ex. 2400/C12) and concentrate on cpu oc which is the king in oc, as you mentioned (compared to RAM oc of course). I mentioned the 6900K native RAM speeds mostly having in mind stability and not RAM oc potential. Both, of course, are much better with the new processors.

 

I think the imc is much more stressed with high oc's than it would be with 8 fully occupied slots but native speeds. I might be wrong here. As for what you said about 16gb modules I fully agree. I'm just not so used to them yet .

[Dimitris Tolios]

I transitioned my home system from a s2011 system with 4*8GB DDR3 to a s1150 ITX, so 16GB were a "must" if I wanted 32GB...

Seems to be working fine...no regrets other than the 950 Pro NVMe M.2 drive. I just don't feel any real difference, just wanted to try the "Faster" toy...should have gotten a 950 EVO M.2 ...double the capacity for same $ or half the $ for same...

[andrewleach]

Right guys, this is where it goes way over my head. I've seen another pc with a gtx 1070 graphics card but I was told that these cards are more for gaming than rendering? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll find the spec and post and see what you think. Cheers for the comments, glad I haven't jumped it straight off when there's quite a bit to think about

[Nikolaos M]

no regrets other than the 950 Pro NVMe M.2 drive. I just don't feel any real difference, just wanted to try the "Faster" toy...should have gotten a 950 EVO M.2 ...double the capacity for same $ or half the $ for same...

 

Now you mentioned this, is it true that it throttles a big time when it gets hot?

[Nikolaos M]

I've seen another pc with a gtx 1070 graphics card but I was told that these cards are more for gaming than rendering? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

You're wrong but it's not your fault. Dimitris would do the rest of the talking here . Geforce cards are great in all apps and not only in games. There are just a few exeptions but the rule is that "gaming" cards offer more for their money compared to "professional" ones. These are just euphimisms that hide the real capabilities of these gpus.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Right guys, this is where it goes way over my head. I've seen another pc with a gtx 1070 graphics card but I was told that these cards are more for gaming than rendering? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll find the spec and post and see what you think. Cheers for the comments, glad I haven't jumped it straight off when there's quite a bit to think about

 

You were told by whom?

 

Copied by another thread:

 

For the last few years, Quadros & FirePros became tools for design people outside the ArchViz field: Solidworks, Catia, SNX etc design tools love them.

 

For the rest of the people is mostly un-needed and often forced down your throat by computer builders that make more $ by selling you more expensive parts and have zero incentive to check their facts on whether there are real performance benefits or not. i.e. you cannot even buy a Dell, HP or Lenovo tower that is labeled "workstation" without a "workstation card". You can get a BOXX with a GTX, but they markup other components making their profit there, but outside of their support & nice cases, there is nothing "magic" about BOXX or any other workstation builder: DIY / BYO machines can be just as reliable & fast - if not faster - for less $.

 

---

 

There are also lots of unfounded or really dated anecdotes to the tune:

 

* "Professional Arch designers / Architects / blah blah use Macs"... This is untrue outside of small studios / outfits. Most big design companies used x86 and Windows for ages, and the selection of AEC software speaks to that: its mostly for x86 and Windows. Thus eventually Apple switched to x86 instead of trying to make others to adapt to them (Jobs was adamant against it, but...lead to the Macbook Pro explosion in sales we've seen the last decade. Ofc if you ask Mac-fans, Jobs was infallible, like when he trash-talked the possibility of 7" iPads). Boils down to habit / preference / aesthetics. Personally I think it is not wise to buy a iMac or MBP if you will be running Windows on it...others think otherwise...not my money, so...

 

* "Adobe develops their products on / for Macs, then "ports" them to WinOS, thus Win sucks for Adobe"... = WinOSes had their issues, sure, and MacOS traditionally had better memory management / lower overhead but no, Adobe is not stupid enough to focus only on a small % of Hardware out there. Yes, there are tools out there unique in OSX, ArchViz utilizes too few of them. Again, more often than not its Windows that has exclusivity in tools. But in wealthy economies where Macs are not completely out of the budget, this holds true for laymen professional photographers & graphic designers which "have-to-have" them. After all being a great photographer doesn't make you a smart computer buyer, and vice versa.

 

* AutoCAD is so demanding - yeah, no...2D and basic 3D AutoCAD can be operated efficiently on very basic hardware. Although the latest versions of AutoCAD are demanding insane GBs of HDD space adding little or no extra utility over 10y ago...What the heck Autodesk ??? Most computer salesmen don't know about Revit at all...

 

* Revit / 3DS / blah blah need Workstation GPUs...ehm, not really.

 

* Workstation GPUs are better binned and more reliable and that makes a difference in ArchViz...ehm, not really. Especially with the latest GPUs that throttle down to a couple of Watts usage when idling, I think longevity is a non-issue.

 

* Workstation CPUs are better binned and more reliable and that makes a difference in ArchViz...ehm, not really. Especially with the latest CPUs that throttle down to a couple of Watts usage when idling, I think longevity is a non-issue.

 

I can keep going. If you go to a computer store, the half educated salesperson will use one or more of those arguments to get you to buy "more".

 

I bet most of them don't even know or will believe you that most of our applications are not even properly multithreaded...tell them that a $3xx 6700K will be faster for 3D modelling / CAD work vs. a $3000 lower clocked Xeon and they pity your "ignorance".

Edited September 2, 2016 by dtolios

[andrewleach]

This is the other spec

 

Intel i7 6850K Broadwell Extreme Unlocked CPU/Processor

 

 

Gigabyte X99 UD4P E-ATX Motherboard

 

Corsair 32GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200MHz RAM/Memory Kit 4x 8GB

 

Gigabyte GTX Titan Z 12GB Ultimate Nvidia PCI Express Graphics Card

 

Antec Signature S10 Black Full Tower Case

 

Corsair AX1200i Full Modular Power Supply

 

Samsung SM951 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe High Performance SSD

 

Seagate 2TB 3.5" SATA Desktop SSHD/Solid State Hybrid Drive

 

Corsair Hydro H105 Hydro Cooler

[Nikolaos M]

I bet most of them don't even know or will believe you that most of our applications are not even properly multithreaded...tell them that a $3xx 6700K will be faster for 3D modelling / CAD work vs. a $3000 lower clocked Xeon and they pity your "ignorance".

^+1.

Edited September 12, 2016 by nikolaosm

[Nikolaos M]

This is the other spec

 

Intel i7 6850K Broadwell Extreme Unlocked CPU/Processor

 

 

Gigabyte X99 UD4P E-ATX Motherboard

 

Corsair 32GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200MHz RAM/Memory Kit 4x 8GB

 

Gigabyte GTX Titan Z 12GB Ultimate Nvidia PCI Express Graphics Card

 

Antec Signature S10 Black Full Tower Case

 

Corsair AX1200i Full Modular Power Supply

 

Samsung SM951 512GB M.2 PCIe NVMe High Performance SSD

 

Seagate 2TB 3.5" SATA Desktop SSHD/Solid State Hybrid Drive

 

Corsair Hydro H105 Hydro Cooler

 

Someone is trying to sell you old or/and expensive stuff. Titan Z? Really? And the AX1200i? Listen, please ignore all these lists. I think the one I've posted is much better and all parts are up to date.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Now you mentioned this, is it true that it throttles a big time when it gets hot?

 

It never gets hot enough to throttle unless you are copying endless GBs of files...just not a realistic scenario of real usage for end-users I think.

I don't want to go back watching the videos out there, but it heats up after a couple of minutes of 100% utilization, so we are talking 120 sec * 2+ GB of writes / sec = writing over a whole 250GB class drive in a couple of minutes...

 

There is no real scenario that can "feed" the drive more than 2GB or files per second.

 

4K at 24fps RAW - 4096 x 2304 x 24 x 12 / 8 / 1024 / 1024 = 324MB/s or 2.6Gbps

4K from a RED is more like 150 Mbps and "realistic" hi-bitrate 4K outputs of cameras are in the .5~1.5Gbps....the 950 Pro does like 20 Gbps...you have to be editing like 10 streams of 4K raw or high bitrate video endlessly for "overheating" to become an issue...doubt it will happen, especially with a

 

Its pretty much the same correlation of temps achieved through Prime95 and when you are doing CAD work or even rendering...

There is merit in stress-testing, but we have to understand that most of these are well-engineered products which doesn't mean there is never a failure: it means the "breaking point" is far beyond realistic scenarios.

 

Maybe its just me, but I would take a 1TB M.2 EVO over a 950 Pro 512 next time around =)

Edited September 2, 2016 by dtolios

[joelmcwilliam]

Okay Andrew, reading the comments from Dimitris and Nikolaos, you must be having something like: "what the ef? Is that some kind of alien language?"

 

It must be confusing for someone who is not at home it the technical stuff of computers.

 

But trust me, Dimitris and Nikolaos really know their stuff and it would be very unwise of you not to listen. I would highly suggest to listen to every advise they are giving to you, because you must be very lucky that people with such deep knowlegde of pc hardware are willing to help you and dedicating much time trying to help you.

 

You wont find better advise on the net.

 

And if you are spending a lot of cash on a pc, you want the best and honest advise possible. Welcome to the right place.

[Kerry Thompson]

Let me explain my thinking, if you don't mind:

1. 5960X vs 6900K. The second one is newer and supports 2400MHz Ram speeds natively.

2. Don't buy an MSI board. Put your money on a classic Asus or Gigabyte. Even Asrock is fine in this socket.

3. A K5000 is too expensive for its performance and is of a previous architecture (Kepler). The 1070 would be sufficient for most 3d software and even for heavy tasks.

4. You don't need a 1000W psu to run this build. A 650/750W would more than enough.

5. The 840 EVO is an older model and had some serious problems in real use. Samsung has released 2-3 newer models since then.

6. You'll need a really good AIO cooler to cool well an 8core processor like the 5960X/6900K.

 

That's all for now. Wait for more advice. You're spending a lot of money on this build and you must be sure to invest it in the right parts. You could also build a 2P system with second hand Xeons (v2-v3) with the budget. I don't know if rendering or modeling is more important inside your workflow.

 

Interesting your comments on the K5000 - Any comments on the M6000 24Gb? as a possibility?

 

 

Kerry Thompson at Triptech

[Nikolaos M]

As a possibility for which particular use? That's the question.

The M6000 is a gpu that costs ~5000$ in the US right now. Why on earth would anyone spend this amount of money to get a gpu of this kind? One could build a top notch Workstation with this budget (top gpu included).

I think that this kind of hardware interests only very few professionals right now, and with extremely specialized tasks. Not the average CGI professional.

[Kerry Thompson]

As a possibility for which particular use? That's the question.

The M6000 is a gpu that costs ~5000$ in the US right now. Why on earth would anyone spend this amount of money to get a gpu of this kind? One could build a top notch Workstation with this budget (top gpu included).

I think that this kind of hardware interests only very few professionals right now, and with extremely specialized tasks. Not the average CGI professional.

 

I am looking at a Dell workstation and they list this class of card in their options. The K cards are only marginally less expensive. Not looking to build anything at this stage. In NZ, these type of cards cost ~$US7,500.

 

 

Kerry Thompson at Triptech

[andrewleach]

Morning guys. Joel don't worry this is going way over my head but I am taking the advice given. I've now had the pc spec re-looked over and has come up with this.

I7 extreme 6950 with a gtx 1080 card, 32gb ram to start with

[Dimitris Tolios]

You have to be honnest with yourself in order to help us help you:

 

#1) Do you want the fastest PC off the shelf, or will you be overclocking your CPU?

 

#2) You need "the fastest" or you were told "you need the fastest"? If so by whom? What does he do for a living?

 

#3) What will you do with this machine? Rendering? Modeling? A mix of the two? Do you know that a stock clocked 6950X is just 3.5GHz Turbo and will "suck" in lightly threaded tasks vs. $200 CPUs that are clocked faster? The "fastest" for task A might be far from the "fastest" at task B.

 

#4) Is there are reason you need the "fastest" in one box? i.e. for the cost of a 6970X box that stock gives you 10 cores * 3GHz = 30GHz aggregate, you can get 3-4 i7-6700K boxes, one to act as a workstation with decent GPU / bigger & faster storage etc, others as slaves just for rendering: 4 cores * 4GHz = 16GHz aggregate per box. 2x 6700K boxes beat the 6970X in rendering, 4x seriously leave it behind...the 6700K based modeling workstation will be faster to model in and initiate rendering sessions faster due to a 1GHz clock advantage (in both base and turbo modes).

 

#5) Is there a budget or do you want the fastest regardless of budget? Or do you need to see what the fastest costs and then step it back?

Edited September 9, 2016 by dtolios

[joelmcwilliam]

Like Dimitris said, you need to buy something that suits your needs.

 

Like now it is like: Hej man, I'm looking for this new car for my daily driver. I saw this ferrari with so much horsepower, so much torque and it has this high tech six speed manual transmission and it is really fast and expensive and stuff". Well our response could be, well if you can afford it, go for it man and be happy. But maybe your needs would be better suited by a mitsubishi evo or a audi rs6. We don't know.

 

That is why it is very important to thoroughly specify what you will be doing with the pc and what your demands are in order to get a tailored made advise for your situation.

 

Like Nikolaos said earlier: "I don't know if rendering or modeling is more important inside your workflow." This confirms that we don't know enough of your situation and you have to do a better job in explaning.

[andrewleach]

Right, this is what I will be doing on a daily basis.

I produce 3d models in Revit MEP currently but the file sizes can be in excess of 1gb combined. I produce 3d co-ordinated models for MEP contractors but have also produced 3d Renders in the past for Architects and have been asked a few times now to produce some more.

This said, i'd like a PC which can withstand 1gb models and not struggle and also produce 3d visuals without struggling and crashing. I've had a PC in the past where it models fine but renders poorly and crashes out.

 

 

The budget i'm looking at is approx. £2500ish and the best spec PC I can get for that price which does the job the best is what i'm after.

 

 

I hope this helps you guys. Thanks for your info and knowledge, I'm not one in the know for whats best suited to what and specs of pcs.

The chap who told me about the Quadro cards to the GTX worked at an old firm within IT so Id hope he knew what he was talking about.