Comments on relatively newbie to 3ds max

[ivanjay]

Hi all,

 

I have dabbled on and off with max over the years and we are in a client pinch and I needed to do one myself. There are a few obvious issues but I wanted to get some feedback as to things I could potentially improve in this before the client submission!

 

(the hole on the wall above beverages, still noisy so tweaking settings, no food in the salad bar)

 

Thanks for the help, this is more for my learning so I take all comments very seriously!

[Francisco Penaloza]

What render engine are you using?

Over all I would try to put a little more details in the modeling.

also I see some hidden light?? try to start only with the light that the architect is proposing. if for any reason your image is dark or look bad then and just then add hidden light, over all everything seem flat and I think it may be because too many lights.

Try to add some imperfections to your material, a simple noise shader will help you a lot, for instance in the acoustic ceiling.

I know Architect like to show everything in one shot but I would recommend to use a little more narrow lens and maybe give two images instead one very wide camera.

The strange spots in the floor are product of over interpolation or lack of samples, but the solution will depend of your render engine.

Is this mental Ray?

[ivanjay]

Francisco,

 

It is mental ray. Can you give an example on what you are referring to with the details with the modeling? Are you speaking of more objects physically? (that in this case is a result of the short timeframe as it is missing quite a few items I would like to add) or details to enhance the objects I did model? Traditionally I used to model in Revit and link, this is the first time I ever modeled everything in Max (of course food and stuff is purchased)

 

I actually did not use any hidden lights. Everything is pretty much where it would be in the real world. Which ones do you see? The flat comment is interesting as I lit it as the architect specified. Is it too much lighting or maybe too strong? I do agree it has a flat appearance.

 

I will play with the noise modifier and imperfections, that is a great tip. Are you thinking of it from a texture standpoint (as in bump) or color?

 

I too would prefer two shots, but again on the time crunch just giving them one shot here so they can see it all.

 

The floor is resolved.

 

Thanks for the tips, if you can give me a few more pointers narrowing down my focus on some of those improvements I would like to try them!

[heni30]

Throw some merchandise in - in Photoshop. Get some food graphics on the walls.

 

Get some lighting effects going - you can use the dodge to create the impression of lighting effects.

 

It's kinda my niche - here's a couple I've done.

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by heni30

[ivanjay]

Throw some merchandise in - in Photoshop. Get some food graphics on the walls.

 

Get some lighting effects going - you can use the dodge to create the impression of lighting effects.

 

It's kinda my niche - here's a couple I've done.

 

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THanks George, but I was looking more for the technicalities on the rendering itself. My texturing etc. I am going to add quite a bit to it post production via photoshop to fill it up a bit.

[Francisco Penaloza]

Regarding textures, my point goes to both, adding bump to the flooring, also a glossy map so each tile does not shine the same and so on.

About the blue wall, it seems too perfect blue, the light hot spots add some variance, but for instance if you look at George sample he painted some reflections and shadows manually, those already create variance. You could do the same inside Max or in post.

The ceiling tile, adding bump and a texture also will help.

The light fixture, you can only see the brightness of them, but on the edges if feel too sharp. Are we looking the actual light or a self illuminate material?

if it is a material, I would lower the intensity a little and then in post add some glow to the edges.

What version of Max are you using? if it is 2016 ad above I would recommend to use IBL and FG instead only FG, that will add a more refined GI.

Also add AO inside the materials or in post. (inside material recommended)

Check the intensity of your lights and also those lights shapes coming from the bending machines?? those looks strange. I would put an area light inside some omni lights to give softer lighting and shadows.

sample for the ceiling tiles below.

best luck and keep posting your progress

[ivanjay]

Regarding textures, my point goes to both, adding bump to the flooring, also a glossy map so each tile does not shine the same and so on.

About the blue wall, it seems too perfect blue, the light hot spots add some variance, but for instance if you look at George sample he painted some reflections and shadows manually, those already create variance. You could do the same inside Max or in post.

The ceiling tile, adding bump and a texture also will help.

The light fixture, you can only see the brightness of them, but on the edges if feel too sharp. Are we looking the actual light or a self illuminate material?

if it is a material, I would lower the intensity a little and then in post add some glow to the edges.

What version of Max are you using? if it is 2016 ad above I would recommend to use IBL and FG instead only FG, that will add a more refined GI.

Also add AO inside the materials or in post. (inside material recommended)

Check the intensity of your lights and also those lights shapes coming from the bending machines?? those looks strange. I would put an area light inside some omni lights to give softer lighting and shadows.

sample for the ceiling tiles below.

best luck and keep posting your progress

 

Francisco, I am going to continue on this and re-render with a new ceiling as well as floor finish material with some of your suggested tweaks.

How would you go about creating the light fixtures in the ceiling? Do I need to make it an edit poly and actually extrude faces up at each fixture and use a multi sub object to create a filter and stick lights in it? Just not quite sure how to go about that workflow.

[Francisco Penaloza]

I Model most of the ceilings, lately I been using Railcloner when areas are large and complex but with rectangle room I just model them.

Poly modeling is very straight forward.

just subdivide a plane with the size of each tile, (2x2 or 2x4) then select faces, inset by polygon 0.3" then extrude about 0.2" or 0.3" then a little chamfer to the new ceiling tiles formed, apply a material for the tile and other for the metal part.

 

Then select the tiles that will contain the light equipment, and inset and extrude again (in the opposite direction, inside the tile grid) to create the metal edge of the light equipment and the glass (light) area. Depending of the type of light the architect specs, You may model one and copy around or just keep it with the inset extrude technique.

Then apply a self illuminate material and place a rectangle light under it. IF you want to go a little in more detail with the light, you can create a coated material, the base will be the self illuminated material, and the coat will be a glass material, his will give some reflections on the shallow angles. There is a VRay shader that make the effect of light boxes so the edges of your light are a little darker than the center, this effect lok cool sometimes on lights planes.

 

You can also use this script from Digital model X to create the ceiling tiles, it works pretty good.

http://www.digitalxmodels.com

 

Hope this help.

[ivanjay]

I did not model the ceiling but I did add some bump and noise to it. I also made quite a few adjustments and split it into two views. Overall we are getting there. A few more tweaks and I should be ready for high res but I would welcome more comments! There are some obvious quality issues due to low res so disregard those

[Francisco Penaloza]

Looking a lot better, You may need to adjust your color mapping to avoid those over burn whites. Also don't use pure white or black.

On mental Ray 0.8 or 0.9 is already white.

 

You may want to add some AO on the shader level to give more details to your objects. Or create a separate pass for final comp.

[ivanjay]

Thanks Francisco, most are actually not pure white but a few are so I will tweak those.....

 

How about the AO, traditionally I only added it to painted materials. But where do you typically add it? I am thinking wall tile, floor? I dont want to overdo it so what do you think?

 

Appreciate the help!

[Francisco Penaloza]

Well sure, you don't want to add AO to glass materials or very glossy metals, but Mental Ray Ao is pretty smart to know when there is enough bouncing light in that material it won't force the shadows. Actually within the same material it varies depending of the lightings and how they his different faces.

It does not work like a general AO pass that you will do in Photoshop.

My comment was to increase a little the contrast in corners and read the volumes better, but maybe a more refined GI will do it just fine

Will you use the new IBL system for final render right? it is totally recommended.

[ivanjay]

Francisco, I did not use IBL. Let me know if I am wrong but isnt that only if I am using an HDRI map for environment? I didnt use one as there is no windows or anything in my scene.

 

Attached are the final images. What did you think? I added AO to a view materials in the cafe market but not all of them just to get this one wrapped up.

[Francisco Penaloza]

I don't know where you are with your deadline, so my comments should come late by now, but they can be used for next images. or if the client decide other color variation

 

I usually use photography as reference for similar projects. From the point of view of a photographer my comments would be:

 

This composition is a lot better, the people seems like a last minute add on, you should at leas group them a little more, no need to cover the whole image with people, but enough to give the idea of scale and function.

For example, The girl waiting for the coffee machine, you can put that hands in waist dude by her side, eliminate the girl in dark dress and leave the dude with the drinks, or only that couple and the chef. That should do.

Same for the other image.

 

Desaturate a little the people and use the dodge and burn tools to try to match the people lighting with your scene, now they look out of context, paint some soft shadows under their feet and some blurry reflections, your floor is very glossy, there should be some blurry reflections there.

On the second view, there are a lot of Chef in the kitchen. too many captain, not many troopers I am guessing for a stand like that 3 people will be the constant, maybe 4 or 5 when really busy. Also try to motion blur some people, that help you to fit the people in to the image and also give movement.

 

Your camera seems to be pointing down. this is very common in no pro Architectural photographers too, don't feel bad. if you need to cover more ground (literally) you better lower the camera in height not tilting the camera. In your case people eye level may be fine for the camera, but you can go a little lower too. This could give a better size to the project also.

 

If you take a look all the vertical elements in your scene, Walls edges, cabinets, shelves they all are tilted not vertical, this create a 3 point perspective that make your image hard to read or compare what is angle and what is straight. You can use the camera perspective correction inside camera options.

 

Even tho the architect will try to keep everything evenly illuminated, try to fake some lights variations to help to give depth to your image.

Sadly for this project your images will look like elevation, that make it very flat, so bright areas close to the camera and darker areas far from the camera help to give depth, don't go all the way to 11, but subtle changes help a lot., you could make closer light a little more warm and far light colder, color also can help to give depth.

 

Color mapping, the first image has a very strong burn area right on the lower left, and the same for everything white, this can be adjusted with exposure controls, default in max is 0.25, you can go lower to 0.1 or less. You could also save your image as 32 bit exr or HDR and adjust those burn areas with Photoshop.

Try some extra blur for the lights so they don't display hard edges would help too.

 

Regarding your question about IBL, the answer is yes and not. The name describe that, using an image for lighting, but this is not limited to exteriors only, in your case you don't have windows but, the system still uses importons and irradiance particles and this is a more advanced GI solution than Final Gather. You can use it by it self or combined with FG any ways will give you better GI than FG by it self.

Hope this help.

[Larissa Holderness]

Take a second stab at the people. Just like Francisco said. AND! Make them interact with the 3D - have the gal at the coffee machine not just stand there but getting coffee. Typically, when I have enough time and need to include people in my scene I apply the following (each as a clipping mask):

 

1. Levels - make the blacks/shadows of the people match the blacks/shadows of your render.

2. Hue & saturation to make their colors the same value/intensity as your render.

3. Shadows - this layer is set to multiply and I very softly paint shadows where the 3D light would cast shadows onto the persons body.

4. Highlights - this layer is set to soft light and I very softly paint light onto the person.

5. Dodge - this layer is solid black, set the layer to DODGE ... and very carefully with a SUPER light brush and soft hand - I paint EXTRA highlights. This isn't always needed but, if you have someone that is very near a light source and the light would be casting very bright light onto them (especially hair or transparent fabric/material) I use this just to give them the extra POP of light.

 

Once all that is complete, I add contact shadows. This helps make hte people 'grounded' and not look like stickers.

[ivanjay]

Francisco,

 

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

Interesting perspective on the placement of people.... We tend to scatter them as everything we do is foodservice and our clients want to see a space come to life. In reality, it would not be a good thing if we had empty parts of the cafe so this is fairly typical. However, I think your comments are interesting about grouping but leaving the image a bit more raw in parts to make it more visible.

 

I am going to pass on the photoshop techniques too. I did not personally add these in and some of interior designers did but the comments are great.

 

What really made me real think is the angle. As long as I have done this I always position the camera at 5'7" (average height) and point the target at about 3' high at a specific point (the top of the counter) looking at the food. But to your point I have never and would never take a photo that way. So in the future I will definitely try that change.

 

I appreciate all of your feedback and I look forward to posting my next one with many of these ideas in place!

[ivanjay]

Larissa, appreciate your feedback as well! I do see your points, I think some more work there would really make them more natural looking and not rushed to be stuck in there.