Derek Forreal Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 a client of mine has sent me these renders and has asked me for my opinion on how long it would take to produce these and how much he should pay for them. i have told him what i think but he would like a second (or multiple) opinions to confirm what i have suggested. if you have a moment to look at these and let me know what you think that would be great. i'll post the claimed billable hours to produce these and total cost once i've had some input. thanks in advance. to be clear, this is the exact output delivered, at this resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 8-10 weeks. $5,000 per image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 At that level, the client should not be wasting your or anyone else's time on proposals. But, since you asked... He should not pay anything for them (except if he commissioned them in which case he should pay what he agreed to pay). They are not to professional standards. Work at that level will just make him look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 You'd have to pay me to accept those renderings. A company should spend no more than $50 for all of them. Paid under the table to some kid at the junior high or high school level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Penaloza Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I would tell your client/possible client, to take a look at your portfolio and see what you can produce, then you can explain your fees and go from there. Comparing yourself with some work that you know are way above (hopefully) is a waste of your time really. When I get some one showing me something like that, that's exactly what I do, if they say my price is 'too height' which really is not, then I say, if you want to pay less you get that, if you want better quality, you need to spend more. Of course you can adjust your price, but lower your quality just to get that project, it will hurt you more than the money you'll get paid for. Just like Street food, Fast food, Fancy restaurant. I would rather recommend to use Sketchup style images instead to half baked renderings, it only confuses the client and it is always a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Forreal Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) thanks for taking the time to reply - your thoughts echo what i said to my client. this is a genuine and serious post by the way and for the record, this is not a potential client comparing my work to these images and asking for a better price. i don't work like that and i'm lucky enough to pick and choose the projects i take on. i already do design/vis work for this client but these 'renders' are part of a package to include the design and supply of some high ticket items. the supplier of the items is world renowned, which is why my client wanted a 2nd opinion on the quality of the renders. he paid a large deposit to start the process of drawing up the technical details and producing the renders of these bespoke items and this is what he received. they have claimed billable time of 80 hours and a total cost approaching £10k including VAT - just for the renders - and this figure is to be taken out of the deposit. as legal action may well ensue i wanted to be sure i hadn't somehow missed something - anything at all - of value in these images. Edited December 1, 2016 by derekforreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Penaloza Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well sorry to heard that but, yea, your client got screw... No way to spend 80 hours on those, unless you are just learning to do renderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 there is definitely more to this story and I am intrigued as to what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludnid Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 a client of mine has sent me these renders and has asked me for my opinion on how long it would take to produce these and how much he should pay for them. i have told him what i think but he would like a second (or multiple) opinions to confirm what i have suggested. if you have a moment to look at these and let me know what you think that would be great. i'll post the claimed billable hours to produce these and total cost once i've had some input. thanks in advance. to be clear, this is the exact output delivered, at this resolution. [ATTACH=CONFIG]54988[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54989[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54990[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54991[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54992[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54993[/ATTACH] To say I'm shocked at the images would be an understatement. These aren't even drafts...hell, I don't know what to call them. Sure there isn't more to this story friend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelspencer Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 A sketch would have been better off, someone should be paying you to just chuck them in the recycling bin, hell there not even worth recycling burn them. But on a serious note that would take no less than a day to produce and shouldn't be exchange to any client for any kind of fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Forreal Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 there is definitely more to this story and I am intrigued as to what it is. Sure there isn't more to this story friend? i don't follow. i've been as candid as i can to this point. obviously i can't disclose the names of the companies involved (not yet at least) but essentially, one party thought they were being ripped off so asked me for my opinion on the images. he is trying to get the deposit back and wanted to be sure of his facts before proceeding. i told him the renders were terrible but given the status of the supplying company in this field he wanted to make sure i wasn't mistaken and i suggested posting on here, adding that i would be stunned if anyone suggested they were worth anything. what am i supposed to be hiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 It's just hard to believe that in this online day and age any client would be so ignorant of rendering quality and price. The most cursory of Google or Pintrest searches would bring up hundreds of examples and information - especially overseas companies charging $300-$400 for high quality images - the next day if necessary. It all seems preposterous. So tell your client to 'fess up - what's the real story here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludnid Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 i don't follow. i've been as candid as i can to this point. obviously i can't disclose the names of the companies involved (not yet at least) but essentially, one party thought they were being ripped off so asked me for my opinion on the images. he is trying to get the deposit back and wanted to be sure of his facts before proceeding. i told him the renders were terrible but given the status of the supplying company in this field he wanted to make sure i wasn't mistaken and i suggested posting on here, adding that i would be stunned if anyone suggested they were worth anything. what am i supposed to be hiding? No offense intended and Sandoval's said it all. The problem wouldn't be from you, it'd be from the client. It's just bloody hard to accept a claim for such a figure with those kind of images. I'd automatically think there was something He wasn't saying and try to find out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I'm sorry for my initial crass response. I honestly truly thought this was a joke. Those images are the worst I have ever seen... ever. There isn't a single aspect to them that would even make me think that a professional or a upper level student produced them. If it was a 10 year old's project for school I would say, "good for you bud, I like the water texture, really nice job." If an adult produced these and claimed to be a professional, and recieved money to create them, I would tell your client they have been had. It's probably some kind of scam artist or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Was it made with half-life's 1 hammer editor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Vella Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Hammer editor haha yes what a good call! Sorry to hear about your situation, I would agree with the commemts above. Did they show your client some of their previous work before beginning the job? I would be holding them to that standard and for delivery, if they cannot it should be grounds for a deposit refund. Might be difficult if they are located in a different country however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Forreal Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 Did they show your client some of their previous work before beginning the job? maybe i haven't explained the situation well enough - i'll try again. i'm currently doing some design work for 'Simon'. this work has nothing to do with the images i posted here and i was given this assignment well before the images in question were created. Simon has a high end building project going on, and needs several 'bathrooms' installed so has approached 'Well known bathroom design and fit Ltd' to specify and install the bathrooms. the company is well known and has a portfolio of high quality work so Simon pays a deposit of £50k to get things moving. after a few weeks 'Well known bathroom design and fit Ltd' contacts Simon and says: "here is what we have done so far - here are some CAD drawings and here are some renders showing what the bathrooms will look like. so far expenditure is as follows: £x amount for the CAD drawings (this figure is just as outrageous as the renders figure) and £8k approx plus VAT for the renders".this company is not a visualisation company but a high spec and well regarded 'bathroom' company. a horrified Simon contacted me to ask my opinion on the renders and is trying to build a case to get his deposit back from 'Well known bathroom design and fit Ltd' as clearly they are ripping Simon off. Simon is not asking me for any discounts, nor will he ask me to do the same job for a fraction of the cost. apologies for the convoluted story but i hope that makes things a bit clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Sorry if I came across making out your are involved or at fault. I was trying to say we had only heard part of one side of the story yet we haven't heard anything from said bathroom company's side. We dont know what that company has had to deal with (eg a heap of design changes, no design ,etc, etc, etc) Yes those are crappy images Yes those fees sound ridiculous if those are the final images At a guess, that 8K includes design fees ??? I could be wrong though, not enough info to tell. As I said, there is more to the story that even you probably haven't been told either, be careful not to get too involved in the legalities or to lay blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Plain and simple. Its SHIT. It's bad architecture, terrible design, bad use of materials, a crappy space with crappy lighting, its not what SHOULD be expected from a high end company. A company selling themselves as well-regarded should be able to at least produce a decent rendering of their design, whether its a pencil sketch or a full blown realistic rendering, or they should have the resources to hire one of the talented people on this website, especially for that fee. I'm not buying what they are selling. If all we have to go on is these images, then simply put, it's GARBAGE and I would fire them immediately and then call a lawyer to get your deposit back. The fact that they thought these images were even worthy of sending to a client shows a lack of taste and ZERO design sense. You can go to F-n Ikea and they can put out a 3D image of kitchen that's 1000 times more compelling then these images. It's a joke and slap in the face to your client! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 '''they have claimed billable time of 80 hours and a total cost approaching £10k including VAT - just for the renders''' 80 minutes is more likely...including the bad design concept and lunch break. 10k is a proper price though...10k Vietnamese Dong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Penaloza Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Actually I am not surprised of something like this happening to a large company. this is typical when you hire a large company because of their reputation, but they really don't care much about your project or they are too busy with other stuff, so they send this 'small project' or less important project to be develop for a new hire or intern staff. Everything fall between the cracks and you get shitty work from a respected company, with the large company price tag. It is up to your client to get things straight, it is a pain and a waste of time for sure. This forum is filled with very talented people and others trying to learn, but let us not forget that outside of our circle there are millions of people who does not understand our media. For them those images may be ok or good enough for their needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Maybe the bosses son or daughter worked on this in their free time to learn 3D and spent 80 hours screwing around learning simple modeling and texturing. It's the only explanation I can come up with. In 2016 and with the vast tools we have that can produce decent imagery out of the box, I just cant wrap my head around any designer sending this to a client and feeling like they can justify 80 hours of work. some of us can design a city in 80 hours!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted December 6, 2016 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Design studios are not render studios. Often time, especially with kitchen and bath designers, what the off the shelf software they use produces as a render we would consider terrible. Your client was paying for bath design, not bath renders. If they got duped into the cost of the renders, they were dumb for not reading the bill of sale. If the renders were not listed and are a surprise cost, they should kill the contract as is and go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Is it not part of design to be able to present your design to your client? Even Home Depot has access to 3D tools and they look 100 times better than those images. Even if they don't have the tech or graphic resources, all we have to judge the design is those images and based on them, I think the design is not worth what the client is being charged IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Forreal Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 Your client was paying for bath design, not bath renders. If they got duped into the cost of the renders, they were dumb for not reading the bill of sale. If the renders were not listed and are a surprise cost, they should kill the contract as is and go somewhere else. i think this is what it boils down to. like you say, he will have to read carefully the contract he signed to see exactly what was agreed. the bill that i saw though leaves no doubt as to what the £10k is for. it specifically says time spent on rendering by a 3D technician, with some 'supervision'. the design element is billed separately. it's down to him now. i had already given him my opinion and now you guys have confirmed so hopefully he will be able to get something back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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