for 20 years I have this problems with CHANGES during viz-process.

[choochee]

Hi ppl, any comments about my topic - welcome:

I'm doing arch-viz for about 20 years. This haunts me a lot: how do you draw the line for clients that ask for "just move that tree and it's done" but than "just make the ceiling a bit more white and we're through" and no wander, I get "almost there. change that brick wall to concrete and that's it!" and so on and so on. Where do you guys or gals draw the line and tell the client, that the image is perfect and it's extra ? thanks !!

[Devin Johnston]

I always allow for a certain amount of tweaking which is to be expected but if it becomes an exercise in design development that's a different story. It also depends on when this tweaking occurs, if it's being asked for while you’re working on the initial images that's one thing but if there coming to you after you've fished the images that's different. If it's the latter then I'd ask for more money to make the changes since it's their decisions or indecision that's driving those changes.

[Francisco Penaloza]

Not to sound arrogant or an Ass but after 20 Years you have not figure out how to manage your projects and clients?? that does not talk good about your managing skill men.

I am not saying that I have all problems resolved, (farm from it) but you need to be very clear before you start any project, what things can be changed and when. I have deal with many time of clients and I learned to keep my workflow as flexible as possible, I do a lot in post just because I know some clients will come with a last minute change, but even with that there are limits.

As mentioned by Devin you should not prepare 'Final render' during design, they should be clear enough to give an idea once design is close to done then you should move forward with more detailed renderings. If any design changes happens after they already 'signed for final' that's a new order my friend, they need to pay extra. otherwise you'll never finish and will work for free.

[James Vella]

Story time

I had a talk with a lawyer the other day about a visa issue, she told me that she is a professional and that she is "sorry if this is offensive" - but she will not take the case if she doesn't think she can win, this protects her reputation (100% strike rate) and also protects her client as they are confident in her ability to deliver.

 

It made me pause for a moment and think, I really like this girl. It was far from offensive, the fact she is professional enough to set the boundaries shes comfortable with to ensure she can deliver what she promised is exciting for me as her client.

 

I think most professionals need to learn their boundaries and this is what sets you apart from the yes men. Designers are not yes men, they are solving a problem. You as the artist/visualizer are solving the clients problem - if you fail to address the problem or speak up as to how you are resolving their issue then your design is flawed or there is a communication issue.

 

I find problematic clients usually (a) do not respect you or (b) are not true with their intentions. Setting strong boundaries communicates to your client you know what you are doing, you are able to clearly let them know what you are not doing for them (designing the unfinished plan), and setting clear expectations as to what they are paying for - are they paying you to dress their doll house? Interpret a plan into a 3D marketing image, a town planning image, a concept? It all sounds like stuff you have heard before - but Im sure clearly clarifying these things is essential to clear communication and managing client expectations.

[innerdream]

In your proposal say how many changes per exercise, e.g. modeling 1 change to the design, texturing one change to textures. When they go on the "I don't know what I want until I see it train" refer back to the contract and say, "I can make those changes but it's x$ an hour."

 

I'm doing a project like that right now, the client said they had it all designed, colors picked etc. I have done the final rendering and now they're changing things - it's hourly I told them.

[Nic H]

managing updates and design changes is an integral part of being a arch vis artist

you are judged professionally on this

[heni30]

Wow - join date 2003.

 

Nice work on your website.

 

This might get me into trouble but your problem may be to some extent cultural. My wife and I were back-packing in Thailand/Nepal and we ran into a lot of young Israelis and there was a LOT of negotiation for everything. I don't think you'd have as much trouble say here in the states.

 

It worked to our advantage though because we'd forgotten our trekking permits but your nice countrymen rallied around us and out argued the checkpoint officials and convinced them to let us go through.

Edited January 17, 2017 by heni30

[Francisco Penaloza]

Wow - join date 2003.

 

Nice work on your website.

 

This might get me into trouble but your problem may be to some extent cultural. My wife and I were back-packing in Thailand/Nepal and we ran into a lot of young Israelis and there was a LOT of negotiation for everything. I don't think you'd have as much trouble say here in the states.

 

It worked to our advantage though because we'd forgotten our trekking permits but your nice countrymen rallied around us and out argued the checkpoint officials and convinced them to let us go through.

 

LOL even though I agree with you, I used to work within the Arab community too . But I also had some deep pocket White American clients, that just say, 'Do that change, that's why I am paying you'

So yea it happens in all families

But I guess most of the problem comes because most clients do not understand this media, they think we push some buttons and bingo, after you explain all the steps and variations possibles most of them understand and will accept a early rendering as a sample to keep working on design, without waiting to have a final render to decide if they like the design or not.

[innerdream]

LOL even though I agree with you, I used to work within the Arab community too . But I also had some deep pocket White American clients, that just say, 'Do that change, that's why I am paying you'

So yea it happens in all families

But I guess most of the problem comes because most clients do not understand this media, they think we push some buttons and bingo, after you explain all the steps and variations possibles most of them understand and will accept a early rendering as a sample to keep working on design, without waiting to have a final render to decide if they like the design or not.

 

Here's the thing Architects cannot commit! It's a big problem because they don't know what they want until they see it most of the times and they use us for that process. You need to be very clear and REMIND THEM often what is included in the fee! If they can they will take advantage of you.

[heni30]

You gotta be firm - that stress'll kill ya. No exceptions.

 

I had this jerk phoning me changes at 2 am for something that was due at noon. Nice guy and all but I just dropped him

and told him I wouldn't do anymore work for him and walked away. That ecstatic feeling of being liberated made me realize the

pressure I'd been under for years.

 

At the very least make it worth your while by getting fairly compensated for it. I think you'll find most clients will respond positively, albeit grudgingly ..... if not, tough.

Edited January 17, 2017 by heni30

[innerdream]

You gotta be firm - that stress'll kill ya. No exceptions.

 

I had this jerk phoning me changes at 2 am for something that was due at noon. Nice guy and all but I just dropped him

and told him I wouldn't do anymore work for him and walked away. That ecstatic feeling of being liberated made me realize the

pressure I'd been under for years.

 

At the very least make it worth your while by getting fairly compensated for it. I think you'll find most clients will respond positively, albeit grudgingly ..... if not, tough.

 

Yep, sometimes firing the client is the best thing you can do. One door shuts another opens.

[choochee]

thanks for all responses, I see I'm not alone in this !

I do drop clients that think I'm no more that a kid punching the keyboard that should be thankful for someone paying him (yeah I do arch-viz for 20 years,even more. yeah I'm an architect, too. yeah I'm almost 50 years old and have 4 kids...), my problem is how to WRITE down a good proposal for covering those changes. see, some architects demand a lot of changes when they see final renderings - sometimes they wanna change, sometimes the entrepreneur asks you to change stuff only when he gets the final render because his vision is lacking... and I DO wanna keep many of my clients satisfied as most of them are OK. it's about 10% of my work that get stuck like that, and this is why I keep thinking - yup, for 20 years now - how to make it clear whats in and whats not....

[innerdream]

thanks for all responses, I see I'm not alone in this !

I do drop clients that think I'm no more that a kid punching the keyboard that should be thankful for someone paying him (yeah I do arch-viz for 20 years,even more. yeah I'm an architect, too. yeah I'm almost 50 years old and have 4 kids...), my problem is how to WRITE down a good proposal for covering those changes. see, some architects demand a lot of changes when they see final renderings - sometimes they wanna change, sometimes the entrepreneur asks you to change stuff only when he gets the final render because his vision is lacking... and I DO wanna keep many of my clients satisfied as most of them are OK. it's about 10% of my work that get stuck like that, and this is why I keep thinking - yup, for 20 years now - how to make it clear whats in and whats not....

 

I feel your pain! First of all when a client thinks they're doing you a favor by hiring you that is trouble! It is a win win agreement, they pay a fee you deliver a product - at least that's the way it "should" work. Unfortunately the market is saturated with 3D render artists and they know that so they can kick you to the curb without a second thought. All you can do really is write a detailed proposal, one that doesn't scare them off, and keep them informed about what needs to happen when.

 

Right now I woke up to this email: "I get the feeling you don’t trust me. Im getting tired of every other email is about an add service, not a very good way to do business. Lets just get this finished up so I can get my drawings and you can get your money."

 

Well, the guy never paid the retainer, it's in the contract, and he keeps moving the goal posts and changing things outside of the contract after I have told him what is included in writing. Needless to say we will not be working together again! Sometimes you gotta just say F it, this dude isn't worth the effort!

[M V]

Every one of these posts hits home. I have been doing this work for 13 years now (lucky number), and I have seen them all. The guy who promises 'tons' of work, the guy who has no money but wants the world, the guy who is never satisfied, etc. I have a pretty ironclad agreement. 3 revision rounds, anything else is extra. Hopefully they read it. I've had heated phone conversations where the guy didn't even read the agreement and than accused me of nickle and diming him. YOU DON'T WANT THOSE CLIENTS, TRUST ME.

 

Yes, there are a lot of 3D artists out there and competition is stiff, but there are a lot of pizza places out there, too. Make good pizza at a decent price, treat your customers well, and you will get business. Same for us. There are a lot of shady developers and guys out there. Let the young dudes have them, they have more time and patience than us old dogs have. Find solid, good clients, that respect you as an artist and designer and value you.

[choochee]

thanks guys, that's what I think too, seen 'em all.just called an architect that I know to warn him off one of my "clients" that brought "tons of work" and now "I will pay you for sure (just see if you can find me haha)". guess we must trust our experience no matter what we write on paper (or more like it, on .docx)