Best BIM modelling software package

[bricklyne]

.............

In my own admission to lack of knowledge about ArchiCAD, this statement above shows your lack of knowledge of Revit. Revit has the capacity to do energy analysis, in partnership with the Green Building Council. I can export a Revit model to GBXML format, upload it to the Green Building website, and in a few moments, for free, get a detailed energy analysis of my building. Yep, a third party app, working with data from Revit. Many others are doing this as well for cost estimation, material take-offs, etc.

 

Ok then, seeing as words seem to be such a problem for you, I'll try to keep it brief this time......and simple.

 

The statement I made that you claim shows my lack of knowledge of Revit is in your own statement above confirmed to be true. I said that Revit lacks the capacity to do Energy Analysis, like ArchiCAD can, with or without a plug-in, unless an entirely different application is brought into the picture. You're talking about exporting the Revit model to an entirely different program (Green Building Website software) (possibly because Revit's own internal plugin for Energy Analysis is far too advanced for the model? Oh, wait that's right, Revit doesn't have a plugin to do this) So am I missing something here? How exactly is what you have said about exporting the Revit model to another entirely different unrelated program ( could be ArchiCAD for all we know ) to perform Energy Analysis different from what I said about Revit lacking the capacity to do it from within? And by the way when you say that Revit does it "in partnership with the Green Building Council.", you do realize that that does not mean Revit is actually doing it ( even in little part) don't you? What it means is that Revit's role with regards to Energy analysis at that point is exactly ZERO!! Particularly with the way you have described it. You do love to go around in circles don't you?

 

So yes, Revit does have it to 'splash.' API? Not yet....but it's coming.

 

......er .....no, it doesn't. The Green Building Council software is not a Revit program module, not a Revit plug-in, and not a Revit add-on. It doesn't even read Revit file format and is obviously not exclusive to Revit with regards to its availability and functions It's an entirely different application. Don't take credit where none is merited. As for that API, ...er, yeah, we are all waiting with bated breath, I'm sure. Until then you'll always have GBXML format or ArchiCAD ( or ArchiCAD's API's if you prefer). Meanwhile, we who actually do have it to 'splash', will gladly and unabashedly do so.

 

If they can achieve the same things in ArchiCAD without plug-ins, why use the plug-ins?

 

Because the plug-ins provides a different, and typically (though not always) faster way of doing the same things.Your statement could also ask why plug-ins like V-Ray, Brazil, FinalRender and MentalRay exist for rendering images in 3DS MAX/VIZ if MAX/VIZ already have a built-in and relatively fast scanline render. Just because they are there does not in any way mean that the reason for their existence is because MAX's own render system is not up to the task or is incapable of rendering images; as you are trying to imply about ArchiCAD plug-ins and ArchiCAD functionality. Of course, anyone who uses MAX would know this, which is why I said you should use the program (ArchiCAD) first, and extensively so, so that you can gain a better understanding and refrain from making unwarranted remarks about it's alleged inacapcities.

 

I hope that was short enough for you; if not, I don't know, maybe next time I'll type slower.

[bricklyne]

I'm not getting into all this junk... it's just too much read.

 

But I will comment on the whole SOM using revit for the FT thing. I was lucky of enough to Visit SOM in late September for large frim BIM round table discussion. I was there, in NY, in the wall street office, on the 23rd floor, talking to the project architects and the Cad manager, seeing the revit model, smiling as they told me the entire schematic design set (with the exception of the drawing index which was autocad) was create with revit. I did not see archicad on any workstations nor did I here any mention of it.

 

-Z

 

 

Which is probably why it might have been a good idea for you to read some of it before jumping in mid-stream and commenting based on your partial comprehension of what was actually being discussed. Nobody said that ArchiCAD was being used for modelling, design or documentation of the project. My comment, which is fact, was that ArchiCAD ( or as Scott would prefer, ArchiCAD's API) is being used for the building model's Energy Analysis. a process that occurs after the building model is completed in Revit, which is probably why you did not see ArchiCAD nor hear any mention of it, nor should you have.

 

Maybe too much to read, but certainly has the potentially of preventing you from looking like you don't know what you are talking about.

[czoog]

Which is probably why it might have been a good idea for you to read some of it before jumping in mid-stream and commenting based on your partial comprehension of what was actually being discussed. Nobody said that ArchiCAD was being used for modelling, design or documentation of the project. My comment, which is fact, was that ArchiCAD ( or as Scott would prefer, ArchiCAD's API) is being used for the building model's Energy Analysis. a process that occurs after the building model is completed in Revit, which is probably why you did not see ArchiCAD nor hear any mention of it, nor should you have.

 

Maybe too much to read, but certainly has the potentially of preventing you from looking like you don't know what you are talking about.

 

you're a pleasent fellow....

 

i have read it, i was kidding, perhaps I wouldn't look like such a fool if i remembered to include the oh well... :roll:

 

so just to be clear, are you saying that data from the revit model was imported into archicad for energy analysis?

[bricklyne]

you're a pleasent fellow....

 

i have read it, i was kidding, perhaps I wouldn't look like such a fool if i remembered to include the oh well... :roll:

 

so just to be clear, are you saying that data from the revit model was imported into archicad for energy analysis?

 

 

.....in essence.

[Arnel]

Hi Bricklyne would you mind posting here the source of your information regarding Revit's user base which is less than 5% than of ADT.

 

That would help people reading this thread to get factual information as I did not see this information anywhere at autodesk website.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

not that i am adding anythign useful to this conversation, but everytime BMI comes up, the thread gets super long responses, and grows to many pages.

[Scott Davis]

.....in essence.

 

So Revit to DWG. DWG import into ArchiCAD. ArchiCAD runs third party plug-in to do energy analysis. So ArchiCAD had no more a role than a vehicle to carry DWG data to allow another application to do some calculations. Did you actually have to do anything in ArchiCAD other than Open, Import, Launch plug-in?

 

There is very little difference between letting a plug-in run on data within ArchiCAD, as there is to export out data, and let a program run that data. In fact I would be more impressed if this plug-in was a stand alone product that didn't rely on another product.

[Kerry Thompson]

This subject ignites passions similar to Mac/PCs! As to Revit numbers, AutoDesk DO NOT publish for obvious marketing reasons!!

 

Found an interesting review on www.aecbytes.com Revit as follows - I highlighted the complexity issue:

 

 

Product Summary

............................

 

Autodesk Revit is a parametric building modeler for architectural design that integrates views, annotations, and components into a fully coordinated and always consistent building information model. It is one of the leading BIM solutions available today.

 

Pros: Clean, uncluttered interface; basic features easy to learn and use; automatic generation of all needed 2D and 3D views and schedules; powerful change management engine which intelligently propagates all changes and keeps all graphical and tabular views perfectly synchronized; several useful enhancements in the new release.

 

Cons: Not sufficiently abstract and fluid for conceptual design; current repertoire limited to architectural design (but soon to be addressed by Revit Structure and Revit Systems); no API or IFC support yet for customization and interoperability (but again, IFC support coming soon); overall complexity is increasing; poor documentation of new features and lack of video-based tutorials adds to the learning curve.

 

Price: Suggested retail price is $4495; regular upgrade price from versions 4.5 to 6.1 is $895, but is currently on promotion for $695.

 

 

Review Link

...................

http://www.aecbytes.com/review/Revit7.htm

[bricklyne]

So Revit to DWG. DWG import into ArchiCAD. ArchiCAD runs third party plug-in to do energy analysis. So ArchiCAD had no more a role than a vehicle to carry DWG data to allow another application to do some calculations. Did you actually have to do anything in ArchiCAD other than Open, Import, Launch plug-in?

 

So finally we've run out of avenues to backtrack on and it's now down to trying to trivialize the facts of the issue. You rarely encounter scenarios where you have to admit you're wrong, don't you? Sad, reallly.

And obviously it's not as simplistic as you state i.e Open, Import, Launch plug-in, but I certainly appreciate the effort to diminish the importance of the whole pocess by trying to make it seem so. Also known as reaching for straws....

 

There is very little difference between letting a plug-in run on data within ArchiCAD, as there is to export out data, and let a program run that data.

 

Actually there is a very big difference, I would argue; but even if I were to look at it from such a rudimentary and crass point of view, I would still have to admit (as would you) that the difference, whether small, miniscule oir microspic, nonetheless exists. I'm pretty sure that if all that SOM needed to do to get an energy analysis for the Freedom Tower was to do it from within Revit using Revit's power tools, it would be a done deal (Oh wait, they can't do that); or closer to reality if all that was required was to export the model to GBXML format, upload to Green Building Council Website and wait for the results, they likewise would have done it. Sounds simpler to me, I think; but obviously it seems like it wasn't so simplistic, seeing as ArchiCAD had to be brought into the picture. Whether as a vehicle, a scooter or even a bicycle for the plug-in to ride in, it doesn't matter; particularly because the plug-in was written to run specifically for and exclusively in ArchiCAD. If iit was possible to write a similar plug-in for Revit, then given AutoDesk's, shall we say, nontrivial, resources, I'm pretty sure said plug-in would exist by now and it possibly will come along in the near future as REvit continues to develop and its users demand such a function......presuming its still exists that is (I keeed, I keeed). But the fact that it doesn't is the reason I say that that difference which you believe not to be very big, is in fact very significant.

 

To illustrate my point, you see all those really impressive renders at the front page of this website. Particularly those done by Vray,Mentalray, Brazil or

Finalrender, I would love to hear you try to sell the argument to the talented people that did those images, that 3DS MAX was nothing more than just a vehicle for the render plug-in to run on. Or that VIZ's only true function really, is to import 3DS, DXF or DWG models from Revit, ADT, Rhino, ArchiCAD or whatever and then just sit back and let V-ray or Mentalray do it's thing. We both know it doesn't wok that way. Its not any more different with regards to ArchiCAD and ArchiCAD plug-ins, APIs and add-ons. They are not written to run independantly and hence would never take full credit for all the functions they perform.

 

In fact I would be more impressed if this plug-in was a stand alone product that didn't rely on another product.

 

So would I Scott, so would I. .....I would also be really impessed to see Roseanne jump on her hands and do a wicked headspin. I would also be really really impressed to see Dubya belt out a couple of pitch-perfect verses of Italian Operatic Arias. I would likewise be equally geatly impressed to find the keys to a brand spanking new Lamboghini Murcielago in my mail-box. But it ain't gonna happen is it? And until or if any of it ever does, I think I'll just stick to being impressed by what actually exists and happens in real life.

 

(BTW, the definition of a plug-in is that which has to rely on and essentially run IN another full pogram in order to perform it's given function, which is to enhance the parent program's overall value. Othewise it wouldn't be called a plug-in but a bonafide program.)

[Scott Davis]

trying to trivialize the facts of the issue.

 

Which is ironic considering you have been attempting to trivialize me during this entire conversation.

 

And obviously it's not as simplistic as you state

 

I would expect it to be far more complicated...it is ArchiCAD you know.

 

I'm pretty sure that if all that SOM needed to do to get an energy analysis for the Freedom Tower was to do it from within Revit using Revit's power tools, it would be a done deal (Oh wait, they can't do that)

 

So why is it with all it's powerful features and API and plug-ins and capabilities, that ArchiCAD hasn't taken on a, shall we say, PRIMARY role in the Freedom Tower?

[bricklyne]

Which is ironic considering you have been attempting to trivialize me during this entire conversation.

 

.....pot calling the kettle black.....

 

I only dish back what I get buddy, and if that has at any point in time seemed to you as an attempt on my part to trivialize you then I can only but sympathize with you.

 

It's not exactly like you don't do the same to ArchiCAD and ArchiCAD users at both the Graphisoft User Forum ( where more than once you've been called out on it) and also at the Revit User Forums ( where you're under the impression that no one over on the Graphisoft side knows what you're doing)

If it's getting a tad too touchy for you to handle it then don't dish out what you can't take in the first place!

 

 

I would expect it to be far more complicated...it is ArchiCAD you know.

 

....said the long time ArchiCAD user and expert; well-versed in it's complexity, no doubt....You, of all people, with your oodles of ArchiCAD experience would know that, now wouldn't you?

 

So why is it with all it's powerful features and API and plug-ins and capabilities, that ArchiCAD hasn't taken on a, shall we say, PRIMARY role in the Freedom Tower?

 

.....Let's see, we have Revit; product of Autodesk, AMERICAN company, and predominant CAD provider in North America. And then there is the Freedom Tower; indubitably national symbol of AMERICAN patriotism post 9/11, even before the plans to build it ever took shape. And of course there's ArchiCAD; product of Graphisoft, Hungarian company and pre-dominant in Europe more so than North America. You know what, considering that SOM is a leading AMERICAN firm with probably more experience with the Autodesk line, I can't figure it out myself why they decided to go that route. Complete mystery here. You tell me...

 

But I understand, though. Having run out of rebuttals and any sound responses to the valid arguments raised and the main topic of discussion, it's only natural to begin questioning non-issues such as the relevance of ArchiCAD's APIs, or SOM's choice of Revit over ArchiCAD to do the Freedom Tower.

[Scott Davis]

If it's getting a tad too touchy for you to handle it then don't dish out what you can't take in the first place!

 

Nope, still here. Still on the ArchiCAD forums too. I just take your posts for what they are. We are both passionate in one way or another about what we do.

 

where you're under the impression that no one over on the Graphisoft side knows what you're doing

 

I INVITED ArchiCAD users to come over to the AUGI forums. It would be foolish to think that some of them didn't take me up on it.

[Kerry Thompson]

Hey Guys

 

This is getting a bit strident. Every system has great things to offer and is a fit for particular situations. So let us discuss them with good grace.

 

Cheers

 

Kerry

[bricklyne]

Nope, still here. Still on the ArchiCAD forums too. I just take your posts for what they are. We are both passionate in one way or another about what we do.

 

Whatever you say......

 

I INVITED ArchiCAD users to come over to the AUGI forums. It would be foolish to think that some of them didn't take me up on it.

 

Oh and BTW, about the AUGI forums, just a word of advice, whenever you lift out quotes from ArchiCAD users at the Graphisoft user forums for the purposes of your revisionist potrayal of the users' dissatisfaction with ArchiCAD, back over at the Revit Forum, it would normally be considered polite or at least civil to include the context of what the original users are actually talking about and not just the selective one-sided clippings you usually provide which make it seem like we absolutely hate the 'lousy' program. Otherwise I believe that's what's termed as misrepresentation, particularly when you initially don't even credit or acknowledge the original person that said the quote in the first place. Imagine my surprise upon first visiting AUGI forums to find some things I had previously commented on to fellow users at ArchiCAD posted there that didn't even appreciate where I was coming from based on how it was represented (by none other than we know who...). I'm absolutely sure you never see the same kind of thing over at Graphisoft's user forums; at least I never have. Djorde has even called you out about this as well.

[Arnel]

Whew it's getting hot in here.

 

I think all softwares have their own strength and weak points. They all can do the job. Some do it the easy way and some do it the hard way. Best is to try out all which you think very close to your expectation and work flow of your firm because if you ask for unbiased opinion for sure you will never get it.

 

I for one love Revit because it fits with our work flow seamlessly and can do the job for us without even using any other program. So we are very happy with that. Others can also do base on their own requirements.

 

My two cents

[Richard McCarthy]

bricklyne,

I found your post borders on the point of inflammatory. I am usually very tolerant to the argument, but I found your post progressively becoming more offensive. Belittling other user is NOT a constructive process in a discussion, and your attitude towards other users is becoming offensive to the user of this forum. I would only warn you this once.

[bricklyne]

bricklyne,

I found your post borders on the point of inflammatory. I am usually very tolerant to the argument, but I found your post progressively becoming more offensive. Belittling other user is NOT a constructive process in a discussion, and I would only warn you this once.

 

I would be curious to know which post in particular you found to be bordering on the point of inflammatory or becoming progressively offensive. I would also be curious to know why it is that only I am being censured when I can just as easily point out several instances of Scott's posts with snide remarks and that I could choose to interpret as being belittling or denigrating of ArchiCAD users and ArchiCAD in general, if I was that touchy. Unless of course the real crime in this forum is defending a product that is not Revit or Autodesk related for that matter, given the preponderance of Autodesk/Revit users at this forum and website.

 

Whether or not you choose to take some form of censorial action against me or to ban me is entirely your prerogative in your capacity as a moderator. Just as it is your prerogative to choose not to have double standards about the issue. But if that's the price to pay for arguing against incorrect statements and misconceptions about ArchiCAD then so be it.

 

To the best of my knowledge I have tried to be as clear as possible in my arguments and explanations as well as providing whatever pertinent background information that might have been there, so as to provide a constructive and valid defense of my points of view. I admit I may have gone a little bit overboard with the sarcasim at times and maybe my sense of humour may have been lost on yourself or Scott. If that is the case then I would apologize for those particular instances. But beyond that, any warning on your part towards me, I feel, is unwarranted, and in part, largely unfair as I pointed out earlier and as far as I am concerned. But at the end of the day, you have the power and I don't, so do what you feel you must. I will assuredely not lose any sleep over the matter.

 

This is the last I will comment on this issue.

[Richard McCarthy]

I have read through the thread and did not found any instance of Scott's post offensive. He maybe incorrectly stating his position, or facts, about ArchiCAD, but that is in noway offensive to the user of the application.

 

On the other hand, I found your remark offensive and inflammatory. The following examples show personal attacks on other users of the forum.

 

So finally we've run out of avenues to backtrack on and it's now down to trying to trivialize the facts of the issue. You rarely encounter scenarios where you have to admit you're wrong, don't you? Sad, reallly.[/Quote]

 

Wow!! for someone who's not interested in starting a word war or a thread on the basis of "my balls is(sic) bigger than yours" you certainly have come down to earth very very fast, what, with a challenge survey?

[/Quote]

 

But I nevertheless understand the need that Reviters have to bash a more well known product in that making area... [/Quote]

 

 

Perhaps you did not read the rules properly. I suggest you read them again.

 

Messages containing personal attacks against other forum members will be removed.

 

The CGarchitect Discussion Forums are intended to be a professional, constructive, informative and helpful resource for CGarchitect visitors and industry partners. Messages that are inflammatory, non-constructive, or at odds with the goals of the discussion forum will be removed at CGarchitect's sole discretion.

 

Might I remind you that this is a forum for the professionals, and you should conduct yourself in a courteous and professional manner. Your posts certainly do not seem to meet this standard, and you have shown the persistance in attacking the other users towards the degradation of the forums.

 

 

 

And what he said in ANOTHER FORUM (namely, Graphisoft's archiCAD forum) is not the concern of the moderators of this forum. The moderator at the graphisoft forum can decide what they do there with Scott if he is found offensive to the users there. I am concern with the user of THIS forum. Your remark are always targeted towards other users in a personal way who did not agree with your position. That in turn progressively inflame the thread, and may also degrade the quality of this forum. Most of your post have this tendency of been a flame bait. Whenever you enter the discussion it seems the thread become personal in a way, and emotion runs high. I doubt anyone found your remark funny, and if there is any.

 

If you have personal issue with Scott, I suggest you take it somewhere else. We do not find your behavour amusing in ANY WAY or form.

 

 

Ofcourse we welcome anyone to talk about products of their merit and such, BUT CERTAINLY not towards the user of this forum in a PERSONAL WAY.

 

Whether or not you choose to take some form of censorial action against me or to ban me is entirely your prerogative in your capacity as a moderator. Just as it is your prerogative to choose not to have double standards about the issue. But if that's the price to pay for arguing against incorrect statements and misconceptions about ArchiCAD then so be it.

 

This is an example of you trying to inflame the moderator of this forum. Whether this is issue of being double standard or not, there is no ground for such behavior.

 

 

But at the end of the day, you have the power and I don't, so do what you feel you must. I will assuredely not lose any sleep over the matter.

This is the last I will comment on this issue.

 

 

This shows your blatant disregard of the others in this forum. Perhaps you do not lose any sleep over this matter, and the case is closed to you, but for others, this thread would perhaps been view as poisoned by your remark. You particular shows contempt towards the rules of this forum. If this is how your feel towards this forum, I suggest you show yourself the way out.

[STRAT]

calm down guys

 

bricklyne - you may feel you have valid points, but so do the other members here, right or wrong. if you dissagree then fine, but browebeating and talking down to them and treating them like they know not half as much as you think you know will certainly not go down very well.

 

your points can be made and argued a little more civil please. these guys are your equals here, not your students.

 

how about a little more tollerance and less condesending please?

[Jeff Mottle]

Clarence,

 

Obviously you are very pationate about the subject of BIM, but I am getting numberous complaints to my inbox about the way you are making your points on the forums. Perhaps everyone is wrong and all your points are correct, (personally I know next to nothing about BIM) but you word them in such a way to imply that the members of this forum are incompetant fools and no one could possible approach your level of knowledge and widom. You are welcome to contribute your ideas here as you seem to have a level of knowledge that I'm confident many could benefit from, but you need to tone your responses down. If you were in a board room of executives stating your case for BIM in your office, I would certainly hope you would not state your case and treat them as you are the member of this forum now.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[jamesvan]

Wow, what a fascinating thread we have here. Scott convinced me to take a look over here and I'm surprised by the amount of sheer speculation given to our project. I felt compelled to dispel some of the myths and translate some of the marketing speak.

 

First, the third party application Carl refers to is Energy Plus, developed by the talented minds at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. We are working with them on the basis of a government grant (can't divulge much more than that - sorry). An analytical model of our curtain wall is being developed by Graphisoft and LBNL in Archicad for the purpose of detailed energy analysis in Energy Plus via IFC at the request of LBNL.

 

This project was a year in the making before we started using Revit. There were over 20,000 files in Autocad, MAX, Rhino, Photoshop, etc. Obviously, we didn't throw that data away when Revit was brought on board. Revit was employed to solve two critical issues with this large project - coordination and construction documentation. It has thusfar exceeded our expectations (and I'm a Revit evangelist!) in this capacity and is continuing to improve with the latest release. As Scott stated, our MEP and Structural engineers are using Revit to model and document the project, but are currently focusing on the 500,000 SF sub-grade portion.

 

I hope this will clear up some misconceptions about the project, utilized tools and what is sometimes 'translated' by vendor marketing efforts. Please feel free to post any other questions you might have here or at AUGI.com.

 

Sincerely,

James Vandezande AIA

[Scott Davis]

Thanks James for helping to clear things up in regard to the Freedom Tower. It's always good to get the information from the project team.

[JackR]

I used architectural desktop for quite a few years (stopped about 7 years ago). I tried Revit about 7 years ago. I've used archicad for about 4 years. I love this program. It enables me to have a one man architectural practice. I can do the work I enjoy (designing architecture whereas if I was still using 2D cadd, I would be doing preliminary sketches and then supervising others. I would probably have to have about 3 draftsmen in addition to myself if I was using 2D cadd. Another long time archicad user friend of mine has a two man firm (including himself), he claims he would need 20 people to do the work if he was using 2D cadd.

[bluejetty.ca]

I have used AutoCad, Bentley MicroStation, Revit, and ArchiCad.

 

I currently use ArchiCad.

 

As far as BIM is concerned I personally found Revit and ArchiCad both to be very good, and very similar.

 

1. I personally found ArchiCad a little more flexible and easier to use.

 

2. ArchiCad was designed to be used on Apple computers. It can also be used on PC's. I personally prefer my Mac over my PC although I use both.

 

3. ArchiCad has been in the BIM business for over 20 years, and were basically the pioneer and have far more experience. It is a German company and has a strong following in Europe. The first version of Revit shipped in 2000 I believe, and was bought out by AutoCad in 2002, and does not have a very strong following anywhere as far as I know.

 

4. I have very little respect for the way that AutoDesk operates as a company. If you take a look at the copyright of AutoDesk you will see all the names of CAD software that AutoDesk 'acquired' in the name of maintaining their monopoly as 'industry standard'. There are so many I'm not going to list them. And, it also seems that Revit may have been developed for the SOLE purpose of being sold to AutoDesk.

 

As far as software, both are good, and very comparable. Best thing to do is try out both for yourself. In 2004 trial versions of both were available online, I would assume you can still get trial versions to try for yourself.

 

One more note... You can export ArchiCad drawings to a multitude of other file formats including DWG, and PDF to share files with engineers etc.

 

Kris Eyvindson

bluejetty HOME DESIGN LTD.

[Antisthenes]

VisualARQ is curiously missing, j/k it's still a free beta.