What am I doing wrong? My renders SUCK!

[joshhodgson]

Hi

 

I been trying to learn Vray now coming on 4 years! Iv'e done 2 courses on Vray and hundreds of tutorials on Photoshop. I just cannot get anything close to photo realistic I use render elements and understand about blending modes in Photoshop

 

I understand a decent amount about vray render settings subdivids ect. can someone give me any pointers as to how to get the amazing results everyone else seems to be able to get. all my renders have a cartoon look to them (unintentional) and are blurry and lack the crispness that characterizes most Architectural visualization.

 

To be honest im thinking of just giving up and moving on if I just don't seem to get it.

 

here is my website you can see the quality(LACK OF) OF MY "renders"

http://loftillustration.co.uk/gallery/

 

Could anyone give pointers or perhaps give advice on training that might help me get photo realistic?

 

thanks

[Justin Hunt]

just had a look at your portfolio, and a few things stand out

 

-Size and proportion, in most of the shots there are elements that are either way too big or way too small, for instance in the flats shot with the canal in the foreground, the people on the balconies are larger than the car or the people on the ground. The mall shot the people dont get smaller as they recede to the distance let alone they are all way too big compared to the shopfronts.

 

-Materials and lighting, most are too plastic. Same with the lighting, the brights are burning out,the shadows are too dark and the mid-tone are pushed too far to the dark's. Try balancing these out. Take some time to really observe objects around you and try to match them as best as possible

 

and lastly Composition, this is not just about where you place the camera, but also how you arrange the objects, lighting and how everything relates and interact with each other. Tell a story, lead my eye around the image, make me focus on the important bits.

 

Rendering elements and photoshop blend modes are not what produce realistic renders, in may ways they get in the way. Thankfully gone are the days of tweaking subdivs till the cows come home, most of the time the default settings work just fine, that is if you are on the latest vray version (at least 3.4 or above).

 

As for the blurriness, render to a much higher resolution.

 

Its been said many times before, pick out some fantastic architectural photographs, study them, then try replicate as closely as possible. Try stay away from trying to replicate someone else's render,you will just learn their mistakes or just churn out more of the same renders flooding the internet.

[shmuck3d]

Yes, i agreed with above comments.

scale/propotion and material property

[joshhodgson]

Thanks for the replys I agree with the plastic looking materials but how do you make realistic materials? I use high resolution textures with reflect and bump maps I have done exactly whay was done in tutorials only to have wildly different results from the teacher. Also I try adjust each light one at a time with an override mat applied. For me vray lights don't light my scene and are very dim yet burn out a small area near them.

[Larissa Holderness]

Agreed with what has been said.

 

For creating realistic textures (something that I too struggle with) ... watch Grant Warwick videos. Also, look at materials - break them down to the 'base' material and start layering grunge, smudges, cracks, chips, etc onto the base. Keep materials that work in a library so you can access them quickly and tweak them on the fly.

 

People see people everyday. If your people are the wrong scale or are too saturated in color, people will notice right away. Here is a trick I learned at a studio a few years ago. In your scene, place boxes that are 1.5' x 1.5' x 5'10" (the height of a person). Make these boxes NON-RENDERABLE. View your scene through your camera, safe frames ON, take a screen capture of your viewport, paste it into photoshop and scale your screen shot to match your render size. This will help with correct perspective as well as size. Hope that makes sense.

[Arnold Sher]

Yes you right, you should quit immediately and move to New Zealand, onto a farm, looking after sheep...lol... We have all been down this road and i have quit many times!! In fact i recall booting my PC out the window and taking up the same scene that drove me insane the following morning. The thing that i always tell my staff is that you guys are living in the wonderful age of internet, forums and online tutorials. When i started this insane profession there was nothing except experimenting, breaking things, crashing things and somewhere in between bad coffee. There were very few people that new what they were doing and i did not know any of them. Getting back to you and problems at hand. I think guys above me pretty much have covered it all about composition, materials, vray settings and so on... What i would advice is maybe to just hold out on Grant Warwick's stuff for a little while because i think you will find him fairly overwhelming at this point. As much as i have respect for Grant i think he takes it to the next level right from the beginning. My advice would be to get your solid foundations established. It is not about watching hundreds of tutorials. It is about watching the correct tutorials by guys who have actually produced something for the industry and know what it takes to do it in a studio environment. Anything is possible if you spend enough time on it, but can you do it in 48 hours and make sure that quality is banging? So i would say start with "viscorbel". He is great in explaining and reasoning out why he does it in a way that he does and when it comes to modelling he is the man!!! Literally!!! All my guys have been put through his tutorials and it is a great foundation that can be build on. That is my two minutes of rambling and do not give up!!! Rome was not build in a day.... but we can (in max)....lol... Best of luck and let us know on your progress....

[heni30]

We're all struggling to get to the next step; it just takes time and patience.

 

Some of the insights being discussed might take years to fully absorb.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by heni30

[Justin Hunt]

the people are still too big. Typically a shop front is around 4m to 5m high, the balustrades also look closer to 2m rather than 1m, same with the benches, way too big. All this is making the people look 3m tall.

 

The raised camera isn't help either.

[heni30]

You're right - gargantuan benches.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by heni30

[Justin Hunt]

I do a lot of mall renders so pick these thing up quickly (although I still often get it wrong)

 

As for materials, keep it simple. Only if you really need to, use maps to drive reflections, glossiness etc. Stay away from blended materials until you really get a handle on simple stuff, they are easy to over complicate and can quickly become unmanageable.

 

Lighting, same again, keep it simple, start with a white model and establish the main lights, only add more lights where you really need them. Play with camera exposure rather than cranking up the light multipliers. Try avoid burning out the highlights or making shadows too dark. balance the contrast in photoshop rather than in the base render. IPR really makes this so much easier than doing a million test renders.

[shmuck3d]

salute Arnold Sher!

very inspiring view for all of us here..by the way do u have any others suggestions/revision on animation pipeline?

[joshhodgson]

I do a lot of mall renders so pick these thing up quickly (although I still often get it wrong)

 

As for materials, keep it simple. Only if you really need to, use maps to drive reflections, glossiness etc. Stay away from blended materials until you really get a handle on simple stuff, they are easy to over complicate and can quickly become unmanageable.

 

Lighting, same again, keep it simple, start with a white model and establish the main lights, only add more lights where you really need them. Play with camera exposure rather than cranking up the light multipliers. Try avoid burning out the highlights or making shadows too dark. balance the contrast in photoshop rather than in the base render. IPR really makes this so much easier than doing a million test renders.

 

Thanks for your reply. Thing is im already doing all those suggestions

Everyone keeps saying about the people bieng too big but the render is still sh*t without the people. They contribute but are not the cause. There is something fundamental that I'm not getting cause my materials look terrible my lighting burns out yet simultaneously fails to provide enough light for the scene. I cant get light shadows because if I adjust the camera or light its either whole scene very dark or slighty dark with burnt out highlights. And I already use simple materials on most things .

 

Part of my problem I suspect is that all the renders are totally made up oe the buildings are just what I thought up. I am going to make a new portfolio and im going to get photos and try recreate the scenes and lighting rather than try make it up..

[Justin Hunt]

 

Part of my problem I suspect is that all the renders are totally made up oe the buildings are just what I thought up. I am going to make a new portfolio and im going to get photos and try recreate the scenes and lighting rather than try make it up..

 

That explains a bit more, the problem with that particular scene is not the people, although thay dont help, it is more that almost everything is out of scale/proportion to what it would be in real life. I suspect that is an issue with most of your scenes.

[mattcooper]

I use high resolution textures with reflect and bump maps I have done exactly whay was done in tutorials only to have wildly different results from the teacher. Also I try adjust each light one at a time with an override mat applied. For me vray lights don't light my scene and are very dim yet burn out a small area near them.

 

What lighting set up to you tend to use?

 

And also, are you using a physical camera? If not, you need to use one, and if so, you'll need to adjust the f-stop, shutter speed etc, as well as the intensity of your lights rather than having an override in each light.

[joshhodgson]

What lighting set up to you tend to use?

 

And also, are you using a physical camera? If not, you need to use one, and if so, you'll need to adjust the f-stop, shutter speed etc, as well as the intensity of your lights rather than having an override in each light.

 

Yep using physical camera. And I adusjt the camera settings rather than the light. I use the slate material editor to create shaders with grunge maps bumps composites all that stuff.

 

I've been running my website and a advertising campaign and had zero interest obviously my work is not good enough even for low end application.

 

After having spent my entire savings trying to start a arch vis business and 4 YEARS trying to learn Vray and getting nowhere I think its time to throw in the towel.

[CliveG]

I ask myself what is the difference between me and the Juraj's and Bertrand's and Alex's (and others) of the industry - they have the same tools at their disposal, they've got the same access to information, to set settings, make lighting and materials as far as I know they don't have access to any magic wand that I don't have access to.

 

What they do share is an artists eye and they set high standards for their work.

 

Simple - there's no magic bullet, we have to LOOK. Look harder at the world around us and at the work that inspires us and then look critically at our work, because it is our eye's and our standards that separate us in my opinion.

 

That said - I know the level that my clients are content with, they don't want me pouring hours more into a product to hone it for that last few percent, they want it out the door and onto the next project - so it is also necessary to know your market and give them what they want. I'm always trying to improve, but I'm not going to do so at the expense of peeing my clients off....

[joshhodgson]

There obviously is some sort of secret trick even using simple materials and light set ups from various well known online courses and tutorials by experts I still cannot recreate their results even when folowing tutorials to the letter my results are not close to the outcome of the tutor's.

 

I've used composite materials and creating shaders I've bought quality furniture models from sites with decent textures and yet my renders look like Playstation 1 graphics from 1996

[heni30]

"Seeing" That says it all.

 

In the mall rendering if you can have a nice couple at the left window and a normal guy sitting on a bench and then go and put a large zombie couple right in the middle of the rendering it just shows that your brain is not "seeing" the effect of that. That is the skill that you have to develop by hard work and practice. And we're all working to improve.

[joshhodgson]

I get that everyone is trying to improve all the time but when you been plugging away for 4 years and arn't even good enough to get any commercial jobs not even bargin basement low end stuff I feel that continuing would be a waste of time and money.

 

I obviously don't get it and am just not computer savvy enough to get it. The most frustrating thing is im a professional illustrator and can draw anything! The exception bieng when a computer is involved.

 

Thanks everyone for the feedback

 

PS everyone keeps mentioning the people don't look good. The renders looks terrible regardless due to odd looking lighting and fake looking textures.

 

My scenes are too dark and not lit if I adjust the camera and lighting down but burn out if turned up enough to even light a scene.

[heni30]

Yeah, you really gotta love it to stick with it. You've got to turn frustration into challenges. and make small incremental improvements.

There are aren't going to be any giant breakthroughs.

 

Four years?................try 20 + and still working to improve.

Edited August 1, 2017 by heni30

[leedone1]

Hi Josh - I've been a CG artist for about 8 years in the industry plus 3 years at university and have to say i'd imagine a lot of us fellow artists will have had these crisis of confidence about their own work from time to time - when i look at juraj and bertrands work i do get jealous with envy but they certainly do not know any magic 'secret' tricks to make their work better than yours - its about practice and patience - your work by your own admission is mainly made up by yourself which will always lead to scale issues unless you have found reference and base rooms and areas on real scales and dimensions - i think the main thing i would suggest is to maybe get yourself some work at a visualisation studio first before trying to crack the industry for yourself -- find a place that is willing to give you a chance to develop and learn the skills you will need to go it alone - although a lot of studios might not look too kindly on someone that wants to steal all their knowledge and then run off and use that info to make their own vis studio...?? i would suggest starting with some 'quality tutorials' leave grant warwick tutorials alone as i find he has over complicated a lot of things that just dont need the film and movie sfx process applied to them - he has one video that goes into depth about making a white wall for arch vis for christ sake!!! you really need to learn the basics first - create a realistic model - scales all correct - create multiple camera angles with correct camera heights and good compositions - and then render a white block version of the scene - using a basic environment light first - hdri or vray sky it doesnt really matter too much but get the lighting levels nice enough and bright enough but not burnt out - then try adding whichever internal lighting you need and develop a solid white render - then begin to exclude the larger areas of materials - e.g a dark floor that takes up a lot of an image - exclude this and see how it affects the image - you might need to add an override materials to stop the dark floor from influencing the GI calculation too much - and as this process develops the image should start to come together - try to get as much correct in the render as possible so that you dont have to over-do it in photoshop - you should only need a few basic levels and colour balance adjustments and maybe the odd raw lighting or reflection pass etc -- a guy at a place i worked at was just amazing at studying photography and references - find images in magazines and online photography - us the photoshop colour sampler to check ceilings and walls to see what colour and luminance they have and try to replicate that with your vray settings - theres a lot to learn and i think youve been a tad naive to think you can just jump into having your own visualisation company without having created anything worthwhile in the industry -- also i think the logo on your website is doing you no favours at all - in my honest opinion its dreadful at best and will probably hinder your efforts to attain work ... soz ... i hope i havent dampened your spirits too much and i felt i needed to say a few of these things because i dont know your age and it feels like i might have been where you are some 20 odd years ago - doubting my skillset etc etc - cheers

[CliveG]

C'mon - you youngsters have got no staying power.... I did my first 3D I think 32 years ago.

[CliveG]

I obviously don't get it ...... The most frustrating thing is I'm a professional illustrator and can draw anything! The exception being when a computer is involved.

 

Well then I don't get it.... if you're a professional illustrator and can draw anything, then why do you WANT to get a computer involved? The skill you say you have should be much more valuable than the skill you say you don't have.

 

There are a zillion threads here from people bitching about being priced out of the market. We're all under pressure from every spotty graduate living at Mom's with heaps of computer skills but little life / architecture / business understanding or from those in developing countries with low cost of living able to undercut us mercilessly and 90% of those who are pressurising prices in the industry wouldn't know what the hell to do with a pencil if you stuck one in their hand. Frankly I'm jealous of you, you're in the minority, the 10% - I can only draw stuff when there is a computer involved and would love the drawing skills of some of the genuinely talented people I've worked with over the years. You just need to find your niche.... don't necessarily give up on visualisation but perhaps you should have a look and think about the skills you have and how best to capitalise on them.

[beestee]

I obviously don't get it and am just not computer savvy enough to get it. The most frustrating thing is im a professional illustrator and can draw anything! The exception bieng when a computer is involved.

 

I worked with a gentleman a while back that knew just enough of sketchup to get wireframes and do some marker work on top of it. He was good, he was quick, and he had something that really set him apart for visualization. We had a department of 6 visualization artists at the time and still hired him to do this type of work.

 

You just have to find a process that works to your strengths, and those hybrid CG/hand processes really stand out in the current market.

[Chris Harris]

Despite how archaic the website is, a firm that I used to work for in the southwest US hired this guy constantly...great examples of 3d/computer illustrated images IMO. You'll have to click on the type of Rendering to see each kind. The "Sketch," "Loose," and "Black and White" are my preferences. If you can draw on paper, try getting a tablet to draw on the computer over a Sketchup linework export as Ben just suggested.

 

http://dozalart.com/new%20illustration%20website/our%20renderings.html

 

EDIT: Here's a more updated website: http://dozalillustrations.com/

Edited August 2, 2017 by charris