Modo, C4D - which one for archviz ?

[PaZ]

Hello,

we're looking for a second software to add in our office, next to Lightwave, which is stil our swiss knife.

We have a Max+Vray+ Corona license, but i hate it, despite the fact it does everything.

I wonder which are pro's and con's of mentioned software, considering some parameters:

 

- industry standards: C4d seems well supported and many assets are in C4d format, plus there are dedicated plugins for vegetation , Anima and so on. Modo has got Vray recently, but there seem to be not so much around for it about archviz.

I hear around users are not too satisfied by Vray for C4d, but C4d got Corona.

 

- Large scene management and large poly objects management: which is better ?

 

- Stability

 

- Vegetation management: this is a key factor for us, since we reproduce environment mostly in 3d. So the app must have good tools for placement/instance painting, and a powerful toolset for managing this kind of thing.

 

- Overall workflow and other considerations.

 

Thanks in advance !

Paolo

http://www.engram.it

[Greg Francis]

Just out of interest, why aren't you a fan of Max?

 

We have this discussion in our office a lot but can't justify integrating a completely new workflow for marginal differences.

[PaZ]

I do not love max mostly because of extremely rigid workflow. Everything needs so many more clicks than any other software, and there are unbelievable issues for a software which is the standard - just as example, the fact that camera resolution is scene-based, so i cannot setup many different cameras with different resolutions. There are scripts to come around this, but to jump from one camera to another you need seven clicks. BTW it's just a single example, but same kind of "mental" complexity seems to go all through the software. BTW mine is a newcomer impression and surely a deeper experience could reveal solutions, but first glance is all but positive.

Even the highly hyped Forest pack, which has hundred options and several rollouts, seems not to be able to do basic things i do in LW with extreme ease and just few tools at my disposal.

Overall, the whole Max workflow seems quite rigid and sequential, with a lot of internal incompatibilities, like if max is an ensembe of pieces not talking each other. If you do something in one way instead of another, then you will not be able to use a given tool, and so on and on.

Being used to Lightwave, where everything is so straight-forward and logic, Max experience is very unpleasant and uselessly complex. So, before i jump on it and spend a lot of time to find a decent workflow (if there's any), i really want to know if other solutions around are nearly as good.... even considering they are much cheaper.

 

Best,

Paolo

Edited July 25, 2017 by PaZ

[Ernest Burden III]

I hear around users are not too satisfied by Vray for C4d, but C4d got Corona...

 

Where do you hear that? Vray/C4D is excellent. I could mention all the new stuff but it's the same as most other Vray implementations. It is well integrated into Cinema, though it does use a separate type of material.

 

There is also Octane and many other engines for Cinema4D.

 

It is very stable and handles large data sets well. The cameras are great and logical, animation is full-featured. Best of all, it's not Max. For my work, C4D is great as the main app for archviz.

 

But Max can say all the same things, so I can't promise you would see a major difference going from Max to C4D. I don't have any experience with Modo.

[Francisco Penaloza]

The beauty is really in the eye of the beholder

Without starting an always repetitive war of software, I do not agree with your comments regarding 3D Max. I totally understand your opinion because you are coming from Lightwave and yes it is a totally different workflow, only because of that maybe working with Modo it would feel more familiar to you. To me it a total head scratcher; there are things that are way easy to do in 3D Max compared to Modo. But again it depends on the user.

 

Taking out all that of consideration for Arch Viz Cinema 4D would be a way better tool for you compared to MODO, as you mentioned integration, third party developers, and community is larger for Cinema compared to MODO.

For Arch Viz Cinema is more compatible with other CAD software, also you have great render options, even tho the Physical render is pretty good too.

[Justin Hunt]

I'd love Max to be able to tie the render resolution to the camera.

[PaZ]

my concerns about max are based on a limited experience, but i wonder if is possible to get a fluent and pleasant workflow in Max too, once i know all the how-to, or if it's definitely a rigid one like many users say. Anyway i do not like AD in general and Max cost is something to consider well, when you need 6/8 licenses. For now i prefer to try to see if Modo or C4d are suitable solutions, othwerwise i'll get to know the "enemy"

 

Paolo

[Francisco Penaloza]

3D Max is just like any other software, once you know the workflow there are not many problems, the same thing could be said of Lightwave, having a separate modeler and rendering UI/ stage, it seems clunky also the Poly modifiers and so on, but again it all depends of experience with the software.

 

Price wise, Cinema D and 3D Max are about the same, Modo is 'cheaper' but I would put it in the same category, I tried many times to do Arch Viz with MODO and always end up in a big headache.

I have been a 3D Max user for many years, and jumping into Cinema 4D was just a few hours to find where thing where then it was a smooth sail.

 

Remember 3D Max now it is rental, for small studios, it may be a smaller payment at the start.

 

Cinema 4D also can be rented but for 6 months at the time or a year plan.

[PaZ]

thanks,

useful info !

 

Best

Paolo

[joshuahale1]

Having used Modo in arch viz for over 6 years, I can at least share with you my experience.

Modeling: If you do all your modeling then Modo is much faster and fluid. With the addition of Mesh Ops, Modo has Houdini or Rail Clone like procedural modeling functionality.

Stability: Modo's stability is like most 3d apps, probably less stable than C4D and similar to 3dsMax and Maya.

Rendering: Internal - Modo's renderer is very good and can be setup to do progressive renderings like Maxwell with great results, also very good plugins for Vray and Octane (I use Octane). They're overhauling their rendering API for better integration with 3rd party renders from what I hear.

Large scenes: I can't speak for C4D but with Modo, you have to be careful with scene management (particularly the shader tree). Modo can handle large scenes fine if you take the right steps such as converting any geo that doesn't animate to static meshes.

I import Revit files via DXF in meters, all the geo comes in clean with the normals flipped (easy to fix, select all imported layers->switch to polygon mode-> press 'F' key to flip them). Materials are not imported though so you have to assign them yourself. FBX from Revit is a mess unless you process it through Max.

 

One final thing: One thing I really like about Modo is its consistency. Once you learn the basic approach to Modo (action centers, falloffs, gradients, profiles) it's applicable to all areas of the app.

[James Vella]

I'd love Max to be able to tie the render resolution to the camera.

 

You can with RPM. One of my favourite max scripts, when you select each camera it adjusts the resolution and safe frame, it also hides/unhides objects per camera. Very handy (as well as a plethora of other uses if you need such as different render elements, render settings, output directories per camera, send 50 different camera animations to render farm simultaneously, etc )

[kraphik]

My answer is simply not one software will make you a great artist.

Cinema 4D interface is very simple to be used in archviz.

You get good results fasts with Corona or Vrayforc4d.

But yes, you have to train yourself and learn and not expect instant

results.

[neilmcbean]

There are a lot of 'artist is more important' or 'all software is great' comments. I'll break from that, and speak as someone who's used Lightwave, Modo, Cinema 4D, Max, and Maya in different settings, and as a studio owner.

 

The cost you have to weigh out is the cost of switching, and the associated risk. How long is it going to take to train up your team to work with this new software? The bigger your team, the harder this decision will be. There are many risks I'm sure you've accounted for, including stability of the company behind the software, assumptions of long-term development roadmap etc. Out of pocket cost is about the same assuming you buy C4D prime.

 

Based on those specs I'd recommend Cinema 4D over Modo, but only if you are willing to buy added plugins. VRay C4D is very good, as is Cycles for C4D, Arnold, and Redshift (which I'm surprised is not more common in archviz because it's awesome). C4D has spent the last decade messing around with rendering and achieved little in return.

 

If you are a committed Lightwave team and want everything in one package Modo will work very well. It's essentially lightwave in one app. It doesn't have anywhere near the market share of Cinema 4D, so I'd be concerned about longterm availability, but it's probably more stable than Lightwave financially as it's a Foundry product. Your team will 'get it' pretty much right away.

 

In either case I would test the necessary IO. My preferred tools are Maya and Blender - I love the workflow in Cinema 4D, but find asset management and IO issues create more problems than they solve. Maya and Blender follow standards, file references don't break IME, and I find assets generally do what I expect moving between apps (I do quite a bit of VR and transfer rigged assets, so that matters to me).

 

I think the best way to test is to run a pipeline. Take a typical asset you'd receive from a client, spec a deliverable, and run it through.

[Nicolas Jordan]

I know this thread started a couple years ago when there was a bit of a dry spell with no new version of Lightwave released for about 3 years. Considering there have been 2 fairly respectable paid release upgrades since then I'm very happy to still be using Lightwave to do Arch Viz work. Like Neil McBean suggested Modo is probably the best and least painful transition for users of Lightwave but the fact that Lightwave has LWCAD plugin makes it the fastest way to do Arch Viz in my opinion with out having to code and script your own in house tools for other packages to get around their clickyness and clumsy workflow. I have watched videos of guys using 3DS Max to model Arch Viz and while I have never tried to use it I can barely watch how painful the process is compared to modeling in Lightwave with LWCAD. The new render engine in Lightwave is now on par with other PBR render engines out there but it's still slower than VRay from my guesstimations.

 

 

 

I have been doing 3D for 20 years and have used Softimage, Maya, Modo and Lightwave for various kinds of work and I'm really not sure why Lightwave and Modo are not used more in Arch Viz. Even Cityscape used Lightwave for many years but nolonger uses it. Is there something I'm missing that makes 3DS Max a better fit for Arch Viz?

[James Vella]

I have been doing 3D for 20 years and have used Softimage, Maya, Modo and Lightwave for various kinds of work and I'm really not sure why Lightwave and Modo are not used more in Arch Viz. Even Cityscape used Lightwave for many years but no longer uses it. Is there something I'm missing that makes 3DS Max a better fit for Arch Viz?

 

I would say 3dsmax is a plugin-in/script beast, decent modelling/spline tools for archviz, parametric modifier stack is great (until you break it), quick easy material instancing/editor, lots of render engines to choose from... but from what I hear if you are proficient in Lightwave and have good plugins that are similar (including forest pro or good tree scatter, parametric workflow, etc) then there wouldn't be a big difference. I also used the LWCAD plugin for 3dsmax its a great modelling tool!

 

I have seen people model with Rhino and its amazing for archviz work, I think each 3D App I have tried has many things I love, but your go-to App will always be know what you know best - which gives you accurate results fast. I think most of us lately would have also used sculpting, painting, cloth 3D Apps etc, it goes to show I suppose the smaller software devs who can focus on one aspect and make it great, make for a great accessory in your pipeline in my opinion.

Edited November 14, 2019 by redvella

[Nicolas Jordan]

I also used the LWCAD plugin for 3dsmax its a great modelling tool!

 

 

In my opinion LWCAD is definitely a must have tool for anyone doing ArchViz modeling in Lightwave, C4D or 3dsMax especially at it's price point. I'm not sure if the 3dsMax and C4D versions of LWCAD have all the features of the Lightwave version yet but I'm pretty sure they have all the most useful core features at least.