notamondayfan Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 He is also selling models - both objects and scenes via Turbo and other sites. Also tutorials. I think it would hard to get architecture gigs with that level of refinement with deadlines and changes but products/products scenes with casual deadlines and good compensations are very feasible. Kinda the point I was making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveG Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 The Third & The Seventh From what I understand, took a year out to make the film. It was a bold move, but his value now is 100000x more than before. So pretending that I'm good enough to come up with the next third and the seventh (I'll call it the fourth and the eighth) I would have to go to the bank manager and convince him to lend me something over $100,000 to fund my year out on the basis that at the end of the year I'll have a bunch of my peers swooning and will be able to sell a few books off the back of it? I doubt my feet would touch the ground as I was kicked out of the bank! I'm still not seeing the business case for undertaking grand personal projects. As a freelancer, for me to drop a paying project to do a non paying project doesn't work. As a freelancer the work I do in my spare time are paying projects, hell when I'm on holiday I'll still squeeze in the odd paying project to keep good clients sweet. Bertrand is an interesting case, does he really make $150k + pa from flogging scenes and models? I don't think I'll be diversifying soon anyway..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 So pretending that I'm good enough to come up with the next third and the seventh (I'll call it the fourth and the eighth) I would have to go to the bank manager and convince him to lend me something over $100,000 to fund my year out on the basis that at the end of the year I'll have a bunch of my peers swooning and will be able to sell a few books off the back of it? I doubt my feet would touch the ground as I was kicked out of the bank! I'm still not seeing the business case for undertaking grand personal projects. As a freelancer, for me to drop a paying project to do a non paying project doesn't work. As a freelancer the work I do in my spare time are paying projects, hell when I'm on holiday I'll still squeeze in the odd paying project to keep good clients sweet. Bertrand is an interesting case, does he really make $150k + pa from flogging scenes and models? I don't think I'll be diversifying soon anyway..... Who said Alex Roman went to the bank? However he funded it was a bold move, which has paid off. As for Bertrand, I imagine he could monetise himself if he wished. How many of you would pay to see him give insights into his work? Or maybe read a book he could publish? You're right, he might not make enough from 3D sales, but there are other ways to make "passive" / non-client income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Penaloza Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 These things do not happen from one day to the other, it all require planning and I insist on my point, you need to set your goals. Alex, Bertrand, and many others do not happen in one weekend or even one year. They are not amazing millions either. But do not over look passive income any ways . What they have built is reputation and a 'brand name' just like Apple or Nike, if you fancy an iPhone is because of the brand and what represents over what features it has, this is today, but at the beginning, now not much really. Same thing with Neoscape, or MIR or any large Arch viz company. With all the respect, take an example of Ronen Bekerman, he is well know, but not because he is incredible at rendering skill. It is just because he worked himself around the business and partnered here and there, until he placed his name up enough for the people to recognize him, now he really promote our business around the globe, participate in everything ArchViz and help the community and profession. But again that was his goal, and it didn't happen after one morning that he decided, screw this I need 1M to have time to do this other thing. Now is this for everyone?? of course not, timing is important, and a set of mind. We all can run but only a few can be Athletes. But we all are a very talented people here, if you feel you would like to be there, well get Fourth and Seven Book, get inspired, read what was his process, is nothing the way you are thinking actually BTW, investigate about another artist that you admire or respect and try to find what is their workflow and how they manage their time. Then plan what you need to do, what areas to pursue and go from there, on weekends, late a night, anytime, eventually in no time it will happen, of course you need good skill because you have to sell something, but if it is not the craft, anything related to our industry also can be very important. Without going too far our host here at CGArchitect, he is a very accomplished Arch Viz community leader all around the world. Everybody knows him and gladly will listen what he has to say. It would be cool if he could chime in here and tell us a little his story ... eh?? Jeff Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Just for reference. Grant Warwick, across all of his 3 courses, has about 5,117 people who purchased the courses. Let's just say on average he got $150 per person. That's $767,550 bucks right there. And to top it off, he's averaging about 1 year between lessons now. So that is the business model we all should strive for. Get good, get your name out there, get up front cash, don't deliver. You can see the number of people in his courses if you have purchased one. I made the mistake of purchasing all 3....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 personal projects are good to try out a new technique, style or to develop a workflow before you roll it out to live projects. Getting feedback from your peers can be a valuable insight into whether its working or now. Hopefully down the line that time will pay off when those skills are incorporated, so its more a long term investment rather than a quick cash grab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 To all the people in this thread who snootily said 'you need motivation and will-power' or 'art is for artists', yeah, meh, no thanks. Anyone who's worked in this for a long time SHOULD be jaded enough to want to do something else in their free time. SO.... if you want to spruce up your portfolio without client input getting in the way, the best way to do that is take the least ugly / most beautiful design(s) you've worked on and do a 'directors cut' of the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahloughry Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Most professionals and hobbyists alike have plenty of time for personal work. Freelancers also have a lot of content they create for themselves to speed up their work that they can easily share to help others. The more helpful it is, and the more generic (making it easy for anyone to use it) the more successful it will be. Designers and viz firms don't want to waste time creating all the assets that goes inside their buildings/scenes, so they almost always rely on marketplaces for quality, pre-made assets If you have/make quality content they can use and advertise your content well, you can definitely make a living from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beestee Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 To all the people in this thread who snootily said 'you need motivation and will-power' or 'art is for artists', yeah, meh, no thanks. Anyone who's worked in this for a long time SHOULD be jaded enough to want to do something else in their free time. SO.... if you want to spruce up your portfolio without client input getting in the way, the best way to do that is take the least ugly / most beautiful design(s) you've worked on and do a 'directors cut' of the project. I don't really agree because there are some people that really love what they do for work, and to them it is a hobby. Don't get me wrong, I am in the same boat as you when it comes to my enjoyment of arch-vis, while arch vis does tip-toe around my hobbies and I do find a good amount of enjoyment in it as a profession, specifically it is not one of my hobbies outright so I am not going to spend my free time working on arch vis specifically. But where my hobbies do overlap in areas I do find myself gaining ability in my free time that benefits my arch vis methods. I play a lot of video games, many would say an inordinate amount, but I don't think I could work on video games and still get the same amount of enjoyment out of them on my free time. Don't know if any of you follow the development of the video game Destiny, but the lead designer Luke Smith is known to spend a crazy amount of hours on his weekends play-testing the new game before it launches. Some might just write it off as him being dedicated to his craft, but I think it is a lot more likely that he just loves video games that much, and in particular, the video games that he is involved in developing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Berntsen Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Interesting question from the thread starter here. I mean, first off, when you're growing up as an adult you get eighter a family, a house, a recreational hobby or something that would keep you kinda occupied in terms of priority. Second, when first having free time, I'd rather work on interesting research cases, rather than trying to perfect what I already know. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Second, when first having free time, I'd rather work on interesting research cases, rather than trying to perfect what I already know. I guess we really are production people as opposed to true "artists". A true (maybe "urban myth") artist is consumed by his/her art through no choice of there own and are constantly trying to take it to the next level. I can't see a serious jazz saxophonist saying "I guess I'll take up a hobby rather than trying to perfect what I already know." What they feel that they "know" is a level of proficiency that is just a stepping stone to the next level and the next and the next. There's nothing wrong with complacency but, in the hazy distance, you'll see there is the Mir level and the Vyonyx level and the..... Edited September 3, 2017 by heni30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveG Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 Nothing whatsoever to do with whether we're "pure" enough artists. (Or must someone hack an ear off to qualify?) Irrespective of whether Alex was bankrolled by a bank or something / someone else.... he still apparently fed himself for a full year whilst producing his master piece. As delicious as the bread Bertrand makes looks..... he can't eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Berntsen Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) I guess we really are production people as opposed to true "artists". A true (maybe "urban myth") artist is consumed by his/her art through no choice of there own and are constantly trying to take it to the next level. I can't see a serious jazz saxophonist saying "I guess I'll take up a hobby rather than trying to perfect what I already know." What they feel that they "know" is a level of proficiency that is just a stepping stone to the next level and the next and the next. There's nothing wrong with complacency but, in the hazy distance, you'll see there is the Mir level and the Vyonyx level and the..... It's different perfecting the same jazz piece over and over to perfect what's already boring to the same audience, or trying to learn a new interesting jazz piece for the same or a new audience. For the general audience, that jazz piece sounds exactly the same if the player have practiced 1000 hours the last weeks. What would makes a change is outfit, appearance or instrument. Transform this into the business of archviz. Too many people don't know how to do business, and think they have unlimited hours available just if they make the perfect image. A perfect image will solve everything. Right? Only that it doesn't give you money. We've had a few of those people in, and it doesn't work. I feel it's the same people who spend daunting many hours on perfecting personal projects. But nonetheless, we're talking much about the same, it's a sliding transform between all this. What can't be doubted is how some people choose to use their spare time. Edited September 3, 2017 by chroma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 I know what you mean, giving the same client a more refined image that you don't get paid for. But the strategy I'm talking about is about moving a step up in style - transforming yourself completely. In other words, you don't refine a mainstream style but invent something different that will attract more adventurous clients who will pay for this new improvement. I was asking Vyonyx about prices and for something I would charge say $1500, they charge $4000 (probably same amount of time spent on both - maybe even less time for the $4K one). So that extra work can pay off in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 I have a personal project graveyard that is full of ghosts. They haunt me as I walk by, sending wisps of self-doubt and beckoning me to finally surrender my artistic life-force and lay down forever in a grave of my own making, surrounded by the unrealized art I was born to make but always put off for more pressing responsibilities. Some people are more willing to sacrifice comforts, wealth and loved-ones for pursuing their artistic motivations than others. My parents are both brilliant artists, but by age six they had each left to chase muses. Their work was more important than their children. My sister and I were left with relatives. My personal projects always took a back seat to my rendering work because I had to provide a home for my family. I couldn't do that in 35-40 hrs./wk so I worked a lot when there was work offered. When things were slow I would try to put aside the underlying panic of 'where's my next rent check coming from' and draw what I wanted to draw. Ironically, one of the main factors in the ending of my 25 year marriage was my ex-wife's dislike for how much I worked. She was bored. But as a work-from-home father, I was very close to my kids. I could pay attention to them in the mornings and when they got home from school and stay up late working. Not much time for 'visionary architectural drawing' there. But having my own art to show them who I really am is important. A pile of renderings doesn't do that. As I'm getting older I am finding the internal push to do my own art getting stronger. Everything I do now revolves around getting to the point where I can, along with my partner who is also an artist, spend my time making the art I want to make. That's what 'retirement' means to me. But I still need to be a renderer to pay the bills until I can transition into other things. If I thought selling old scenes or models, or doing tutorials or teaching rendering would help, I would probably do so, but I doubt it would make a significant difference over more renderings. For me, personal projects are very personal. About the graveyard--you know, everything in there isn't necessarily dead. Go look carefully, you may see signs of life. There are things I sketched out decades ago that I put aside but am now trying to find a time slot to work on. Some old ideas deserve to be buried. The other thing is, I come up with new things I want to draw/paint/build/3Dprint/animate faster than I can ever complete, so some loss is inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattcooper Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Irrespective of whether Alex was bankrolled by a bank or something / someone else.... he still apparently fed himself for a full year whilst producing his master piece. As delicious as the bread Bertrand makes looks..... he can't eat it. Have you ever thought that perhaps he had enough money saved so that he could take time off and work on his masterpiece without having to worry about expenses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveG Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 Have you ever thought that perhaps he had enough money saved so that he could take time off and work on his masterpiece without having to worry about expenses? ....sigh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Berntsen Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) ....sigh.... There's a reason why this business is split. You have youngsters without any financial obligations, and you have people who actually needs money to pay for house, food, clothes, car, activities for the kids, and so on. The latter are the ones who knows how to run a business. If you're rich you don't have to work If you're not rich and saving up money for taking a year off to do a personal project in 3d, well... I know what I'd do if I were able to save up money for a year off. ... You would find me on hawaii. But people are different. Edited September 4, 2017 by chroma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I know what I'd do if I were able to save up money for a year off. ... You would find me on hawaii. But the following year you'd be back to your desk job, dreaming of Hawaii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Beaulieu Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 I cannot say that I have read every comment here , but I have scanned many.... what I can say is that, like most here, I have struggled with creating personal projects. While I cannot kick the habit to start, I am reminded of a lesson I learned in architecture school.... Perfection is not the point of creativity. I too have a graveyard of efforts; I too have a bevvy of work begun and set aside for another paid project; I too work late into the night on stuff that pays bills and wish for something more fruitful..... and I work at an established studio. I recently attended the D2 Conference in Vienna. I saw a presentation of a guy I had crossed paths with the work of known as Beeple. He presented on a personal project he has led for over 10 years where he unapologeticly generates 1 image per day on a different topic each year in 15 minutes time. He has over 3,000 works at this point. Inspired by this, but knowing myself a bit, I gave myself 30 minutes. It took me an hour for each one. In a week I generated 5 images (7 would have been perfect attendance...), but what I learned was the concept that finishing an image is better than not. That quick decision making and decision making that can have you arriving at something worth doing is the best personal project there is. I am not Alex Roman or Bertrand Benoit, but if I had 1-200 hours or 1-2 years maybe I am. I have skill, talent even, but I don't have time. And maybe they don't either. Maybe that is what separates them, perhaps it is so that BBBviz is able to knock out those beautiful images in a few hours of spare time.... but maybe he has drive or freedom that allots him more than me. I have a 4 year old you see. I'm heading somewhere with this I promise. Given enough time and energy we can all do work at the pinnacle of success in our industry. Given the right tools and idea, we can all likely knock it out of the park. But why? What is the point? If you cannot do quickly what it is you want to do, if you use personal projects as some sort of total exploration on the topic of rendering then you may be wasting your time. I believe art is about executing on a topic or idea that you are exploring in your mind. It is not about generating the perfect baby that anyone could fabricate in a lab. The Eames called this constraint and I'm sold. What can you do under constraint? and why did you do it? I believe that if we/you were all to focus on a single reason to be with a render, then we/you can learn to hone a valuable skill within the practice at large. A daily exercise isn't that hard and maybe you need to skip a day, but relentless effort towards a bigger goal just might elevate your daily grind into something more satisfying. Before we all run off to Hawaii or begin to blame excellence on time, perhaps we can agree to see it as additive. Practice wood textures, then environments, then residential design, and suddenly we have the perfect house in the woods. I don't know your fancy, but before you feel like it all has to happen at once, consider that what makes it difficult is your inability to make hard and fast decisions; to design and create at a rate that is fast and tough to keep up with. Hone these skills and personal projects will become tremendously fulfilling. Please forgive my diatribe as I too suffer from all of the issues I have outlined. But I am trying to right my ship. Trying to get at the crux of what matters. My project work looks good because sales people got me good stuff to work on. What can I do on my own? I don't know, but I am willing to find out. I just don't have a lot of time, but can I do in spite of that? I am willing to learn. If you have cared enough to read through the now 5-6 pages of thoughts then you should care enough to get started now. Render something dammit. Consider it. Then render something better and more to your point tomorrow. At least this is my hope for myself. I hope you find a way too. Big love and happy rendering. This shit will get the best of you if you can't outsmart the process. Try. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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