archkre Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I know this topic 's been "the hot topic" in many occasions, but it is never clear enough, at least for me! Please do not refer me neither to previous post nor to David's articles. It's been quite a long time since I haven't done any corporate/office building modeling/rendering so I don't know how much a possible competitor could be charging or the amount of hours this work could take me! It is a 12 stories building: 4 parking floors and 8 office floors, located in South Florida and the client asked me for a quick estimate. Could you give me any clue on how much for the first exterior rendering and how much for any additional ones, please? What amount $$$could be kind of average for CG market for this particular case? Thanks a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 This really depends on skill level, level of detail, and how fast you are. Between $500 and $5000. Specific enough? It's kind of something you have to come to on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 That really depends on how long you think it's going to take you to model and render it. If the client can supply you with Cad drawings then I would charge less than if I had to do everything from sketches. The client wants one main image and possibly additional images of either the same view or other views. If he wants more images of the same view then that means you don't have to do any more additional modeling, but if he wants views that would include pieces of the building that wouldn’t have been modeled in the first view then you need to charge more. I would get all of these questions answered before I quoted the client a price, you would also be better off if you knew what level of quality the client was expecting. Generally speaking for one view of a large office building at a moderate to high level of detail and quality I would charge anywhere from $3000 to $4000 if the job was complex. This is just a guess some people will charge a lot less for the same thing but these people in my opinion are just giving away their time just to get the job. If you don't charge what your worth then your not worth much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 Reasonable good level, when doing single familiy houses charging $75/hour. I have the cad files, but the project is not a 100% developed yet. This is an old client for which I've done dozens of houses for an average of $1000 first image +$500 each additional. Does it help to throw a figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 I usually ask to see the drawings before giving an estimate, especially with a house design (and esp. this mediterranean style). There are more variables that could add significant amounts of time, like more of those damn columns!! Next I'll want to know about the view, if there will be more than one, possibilities for animation, etc., which will also change the estimates significantly. If there is only one view, you won't need to model things you can't see. Next, estimate the time it will take (I think I estimate about 5 hours per 1000 sq. ft. - but that could be off, I haven't done a house in a while), then go to this link: http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000003#000001 and figure out how much you think you are worth. Add rendering time and anything else, multiply, and you have your fee. Doesn't directly answer your question, but you get an idea (5000 sq ft + x 50-120/hour = fee). These types of homes take as long to build as a multistory office complex because of all the annoying little details, not to mention the added polygons and rendering time. But, thankfully, people usually are paying absurd amounts for ridiculously large homes (the last one I did was 30,000 sq. ft.!) and will pay for the rendering. Don't be afraid to ask for a decent amount for these types, the architect is making bank on them. I'd like to see what others opinions are on this, also. I found this interesting Markus Byron's post, but I can't get in the ecuation :"(5000 sq ft + x 50-120/hour = fee)" what do"+<" and ">" stand for! And about rendering times:How could you calculate how long it would take if you are working with Gi Renderers and tweak # of samples ,etc? How do you give a value to the render time? Help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 The "<" and ">" are html code for so the equation should read: 5000 sf + x 50-120/hour = fee. -Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 Thanks, and how does "rendering times" play in that ecuation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I don't know that you can ever rely on a formula to tell you how much you should charge for a rendering. It might work in a situation where the renderings are all relatively the same, but for projects that are more complicated than the last, how do you figure that in to your calculations. If you say it's 45% more complicated, how do you arrive at that number? I think it's all just a best guess situation; maybe a formula can get you part way there but you going to have to do some on the fly figuring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 That formula solution could work for exteriors with "international style" design as a basic start point. If the model starts to get complicated (mediterranean style/ornament/and so on ) you add an extra and you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Daniel, You say you don't want to be referred to David Wright's articles, but this is probably the best advice you should take. Estimating for renderings is not a magic equation that requires all sorts of mysterious numbers, nor is it unique to our business. The way you calculate your fee is the same in every industry. You calculate what you charge for a rendering by simply taking your hourly rate x the time you estimate it will take you to complete the job. It does not matter how complex it is, what techniques you use, or the software you use. The time it takes you to complete the work is a given and your hourly rate is based upon the rate you need to charge to be profitable. I'm going to premise all this with the assumption that this is not a hobby or freelance on the side for whatever you can get, but a full time business where you are supporting yourself with the fees. David goes into all of this in more detail, but before you determine your hourly rate you need to determine how much you NEED to charge. If you have rent, yearly equipment costs ,electricty bills, salaries etc these are all overhead costs that need to be considered. Figure all these out and then you will know how much you NEED to make each year just to cover your expenses (your overhead). Now you are a company so you need to take a profit as well (say 15-20%), so add this on top of your overhead and you have a very simplistic view of what you want to make in a give year. If you divide that over the total hours you work in a year you will get a pretty good idea of what you need to charge per hour for your work. Keep in mind that only about 60% or so of the hours in any given year will be working on fee paying work. Now you might be asking how do you factor your local economy and what your competition charges. Again this is not different that any other business. Asuming you are not offshoring your work, what you need to pay your employees, or yourself for that matter, is directly proportional to your skill level, experience and local enconomy. If you have some of the best people in the industry working for you, you are going to have to pay them more money, and consequently more money to you client. Things like rent, electricty equipment costs etc. are entirely dependant on your local economy. Your competition will likely be using these same business formulas in their business as well, so in the end how much they charge is dependant upon how much profit they take and how good the people they have on board. You need to bear in mind that if you are a valid business and have a lot of overhead fees you are not going to be able to compete with a one man shop working from their basement. That's just how it is. As far as estimating how long it will take you to complete the work, this takes some experience and a number of jobs under your belt, but overtime you will become more experience with this. If you don't know then you need to estimate and keep track of the hours you do spend on the job. At the end you can revisit how close you were to your estimate and then make any adjustments to future job quotes in the future. Most people give a client a firm number in the quote, but internally that number is still based upon your hourly rate. Again this is all a very simplistic and quick overview. You should really re-read David's article. I know this does not give you quick answer, but if you want to succeed in your business then you need to do the groudwork first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Speaking of David, where has he been? I really enjoyed the stuff he was putting out. Pretty helpful for my first year in biz. Not any magical answers but enough to help me along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Speaking of David, where has he been? I really enjoyed the stuff he was putting out. Pretty helpful for my first year in biz. Not any magical answers but enough to help me along the way. He works for NVIDIA now, in addition to managing Artmaze, so he's been pretty busy the last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Jeff is right, there is no 'magic' formula. That formula I tossed out was a quick way to scale guesses. As I mentioned, I had a project that had a 30k ft house, far from normal! That required a way to scale the time I normal estimated a house would take (and those of us working on it were way off, by the way). For the large scale, the goal is to make sure you don't underscore your self by underestimate how things change with scale (more columns = slower computer/slower rendering). The most reliable way I've found is just practice. Keep track of the hours for each project, then refer to those hours for the next. I have a few for each general building type, and so far that's been the quickest way to estimate. Eventaully you can just look at stuff and get some kind of an idea (but look closely). Well, as for the rendering, that's just practice and knowing your hardware/software. There are a million factors and it is, as Jeff pointed out, just guesses. You need to know what you want/need to make, then make it all fit together. Do read David's articles. Thanks for the reminder, I think those are articles that should be revisited and reread (and it's been a while for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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