Hazdaz Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 (I KNOW I am going to get flamed for this, but I am being serious) Seriously... why are 80% of the drawings I have ever seen from Architects so awful? Everything from details not matching, to sections that are just plain wrong, to stuff that is just impossible to build, to missing key, important information. Drawings are the main form of communication in the architectural world, and yet the source of this information - the architect - always comes out with piss poor drawings. And then gawd forbid you try to call them on it - their "god complex" kicks in and their inflated egos won't let them admit to a mistake. Stuff like that would just not be tolerated in the engineering field. Not even close. If an engineer (or group of engineers) created a set of drawings for a new car and they were to the low standards of architectural drawings, nothing would ever be built correctly, the cost would be way over budget and the timeframe would be months longer than planned. Yet everyday, buildings go up with piss poor drawings and very few times is the architect held accountable. OK, that is all... I am sure some of the old-school architects in here will try to flame me, but there is no denying what I have seen in many years within this industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanna_be_architect Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Thats because the people that actually know how to draw correctly are not licensed and will never be. I think they need to get rid of the whole licensing system. I agree with you on the whole ego thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindala Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 or how about this one: "To make it easier for you i will just give you the facades. you really don't need the details and sections. Oh and i've exploded all blocks in the cad drawing so that should be easier for you." and the worst architects have the biggest god complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Well, as an architect (ok, not 'legally, as I don't have a license, but 7 years of school should be good for something!), I have to comment ! The main reason is time. Things change so often, based on client feedback, budgets, new programs (program, as in 1264 sq/ft kitchen, 645 sq/ft bathrooms...no, wait, make that 1021 sq/ft kitchen...etc., etc.), budgets, etc., etc. There are so many factors to take into consideration, that it's simply impossible to do it 100% every time a change occurs. Also, it's the responsibility of the contractor to 'interpret' the drawings and build accordingly. Architect's just show how it should go together, how it's done is not their responsibility. I agree it can be a pain, but I also know why. Oh, and engineering rarely has anything to do with design, beyond the initial phase, which would go through the same process as architecture. It's simple problems to solve (albeit complicated math) - like, 'how big are the beams, rebar spacing' etc., where as architecture are extremely complex and changing problems, that are design changes, meaning indefinite - there is no 'right' solution, it's always in flux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazdaz Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 or how about this one: "To make it easier for you i will just give you the facades. you really don't need the details and sections. Oh and i've exploded all blocks in the cad drawing so that should be easier for you." you know.. I actually don't even have a problem with that too much... but it's when they DON'T give you information... and yet still demand their stuff built a certain way (but ofcourse give no details on HOW that way is) that really gets me. If an architect is vague about something - and wants the sub-contractor (who actually specializes in that field) to use their expertise on the item then I am fine with that. But that is the rare exception to the rule. Usually it's the Architects specific way of doing something, yet no way for you to know it cuz their drawings either suck or are just non-existant. I think too many of these architects should think twice about making pretty renderings and other "fluff" like that and put some more time into actually doing their damn job - that is making CLEAR and ACCURATE drawings for the people that actually do the work. I have had to hire designers/drafters in the past, and without a doubt, the worst ones are the ones that have worked with or worked for Architects (or are even architects themselves). I'll take a semi-competent mechanical/technical drafter over a supposedly "brilliant" architectural drafter any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Take it easy there, Hazdaz. I hear what you are saying, but you are simply looking at it from your point of view, not the architects. Architect's work substantially harder than anyone in this field, have more education, and generally make a larger impact on the world. All reasons why I am working here and not there, at least partially. You must understand, architect's manage the entire process, not just 'drawing's or 3D. They have to please the client, come in on budget and schedule, etc., etc. What we do here is a cake walk compared to that! Just remember, ANYONE can draft, and I mean anyone. There is almost nothing to it. Not many can design (I personally feel that only a small percentage of architects are good designers, although they wouldn't agree), but anyone can put together a set of CDs with a little time. Anyone can also do 3D, although to make a good rendering is a llittle more difficult, but nothing like designing a great building. Designing is based on talent, drafting is based on practice. Very few have talent. Just suggesting to keep things in perspective. Until you work in the other field, don't let yourself think that they are 'slackin' or not doing their job. They are working harder than you and I, by far, and their job is to get the building done, which they do. The drawings will be accurate and complete, when they need to be. We usually get our drawings far in advance of when the contractor's need them, so they are rarely complete. Our job is to make pretty pics, and how we do that is our problem, not their's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazdaz Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 The main reason is time. Things change so often, based on client feedback, budgets, new programs (program, as in 1264 sq/ft kitchen, 645 sq/ft bathrooms...no, wait, make that 1021 sq/ft kitchen...etc., etc.), budgets, etc., etc. There are so many factors to take into consideration, that it's simply impossible to do it 100% every time a change occurs. Also, it's the responsibility of the contractor to 'interpret' the drawings and build accordingly. Architect's just show how it should go together, how it's done is not their responsibility. I agree it can be a pain, but I also know why. Oh, and engineering rarely has anything to do with design, beyond the initial phase, which would go through the same process as architecture. It's simple problems to solve (albeit complicated math) - like, 'how big are the beams, rebar spacing' etc., where as architecture are extremely complex and changing problems, that are design changes, meaning indefinite - there is no 'right' solution, it's always in flux. I see that your in CT also, and I hate to tease a fellow nut-megger, but your off base.... (ofcourse realize that I am not trying to piss any one particular person off) Time is a very important consideration, and that is why it pisses me off so much when I see architects waste it... "oh, well just change this, and that, and everything else... and no, sorry, the install date is the same... I know I should have called you last week about this, but oh, well, I must have forgetten.... and didn't you get the memo with the new section detail? Oh, opps, sorry I must have forgotten to get it out to you... but that is OK, right?!" Also, "interpretting" Architectural drawings is sometimes tough when you have nothing but a horrible plan view and maybe an elevation that just don't seem to match up. SO you either waste time in drawing what you think the architect wants, or waste time trying to get a hold of the architect and hope that he can answer your questions. Either way, it is time and money lost. And when I mean "engineering", I don't mean buildings... I mean actually cars and computers and any other type of machinery or product. If any other product was built the same way buildings are, nothing would ever get occomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Actually in Denver now, but CT is my home town. Well, all I can say is that you should go look over the shoulder of an architect's day. I do hear what you are saying, and I know it's a pain (one architect recently sent me drawings, and after hours of trying to understand it, I finally called and she was like 'oh, sorry, that drawing is backwards!' - only wasted half a day there). But I also know what it's like to be the one designing the building, making changes based on clients, material costs/availability (like the recent steel crisis, where everyone was scrambling because the cost of steel went up so much, based on China's consumption), new deadlines, codes, zoning, etc., etc. There are so many factors beyond the control of the architect, yet each move must account for all of them. Cars and industrial engineering are the same way. The main difference is development time. A car designer, and remember, the car is designed before the engineers figure all the specifics out, then it goes back an forth, and finally the realized design - exactly what happens in architecture. But remember the development for one single car is about 5 years. A building can be a week to several months, but there is NEVER the budgets to allow an entire team, as with industrial design and automotive design, to dedicate years to designing and trial and error. It's all about numbers: a building goes up once and is done forever, cars and products go into production, therefore making the investment of time and money worth while. Trust me, we've spend considerable time in grad school going over all this, various production techniques that will reduce cost, parametric modeling that will keep drawings updated, and so much more. The technology is just not there yet. I just rebuilt an entire building because the arch firm could not use the paramtric model anymore, it jsut was becoming more cumbersome to do it that way over individual drawings. Also remember, the only benefit of having good 3D for an architect is to #1 sell it to his client, which is usually not the case as they already have the client, or #2 sell it to a third party, meaning their client is the one that wants the rendering to 'sell' it to the public or various groups, for approval or eventual sale. None of this is the architect's job, their job is to make the building and ensure it goes up on time and budget. Generally speaking, they get the job done. When I am working as an architect, I am concerned with MY client, with my design and all it's ramifications, I am not concerned with someone else's renderings, although I would do my best to get them what I can, when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 "I just rebuilt an entire building because the arch firm could not use the paramtric model anymore, it jsut was becoming more cumbersome to do it that way over individual drawings." mbr could you ellaborate on that a little, did you mean the hardware could not keep up, or was it the software ? What I was going to say before reading that was, BIM software should take care of alot of those problems, at least all the drawing would match up, or thats what I always thought anyway... My friend is an architect, and when he first explained to me, that one drawing really has nothing to do with the other drawings, (as far as the software caring about it), I was astounded... I mean why has it taken so long to get this parametric system up and running, it just seams so illogical... I mean you may as well be drawing on paper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 It is too bad that the BIM/parametric modeling is not up to speed. I think there are some uses out there that work, but in this case it didn't. They used Arch Desktop, so perhaps Revit is better. There are companies working on better possibilities, like Bentley that is working with firms (particularly Morphosis) to make a good program. One of the largest limitations is form. If you do anything that is unusual, it creates more sophisticated problems. For us, the models are just cumbersome, at least the one I've seen. Too much data, too many links, etc., etc. It's just quicker to remodel and make sure you optimize and can control the layering system, etc. Someday it'll all work out nicely, and with Autodesk running things, I'd hope that they work towards integrating the parametric models with ones that can be used in Max/Viz. It's the future, for sure, and it will make things quicker, but for now it's just not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 To answer your question, it was the software that was causing problems, not hardware, although these model get HUGE and require so many files, it's going to slow thigns down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 To answer the original question, it's the general apathy of 95% of architects caused by lack of recognition when things go well and attacks on ability/character when they don't go well. Add that to the(comparatively) poor salary and, well, would your heart be in it? That's why so many turn to viz (imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazdaz Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 MBR I have to comment on the "one model" form of architectural drawings... Architecture is atleast 10 years behind the Mechanical design field (once again, I am not talking about HVAC and electrical and plumbing and stuff like that, but instead I am talking about manufactured products). Many mass-produced products like cars and appliances and such use a single assembly for ease of manufacturing and making sure something that is supposed to fit... actually fits. Unfortuntaly, with the general lack of technical knowledge in the Architectural field and the stubbornness that most architects that I have met/heard about have, the acceptance of such a "unified model" idea is going to take decades to filter into the architectural field. For instance, the fact that even today... April 2005... I still get drawings from architects that are actually drawn by hand, just tells volumes about the acceptance of technology within this field. Also IC, your statement that "attacks on ability/character when they don't go well" is valid and sometimes those attacks are unfounded, but I have WAY too many instances when people "attack" an architect's ability is 110% spot-on. Garbage in - garbage out. I recall a build-out that I was involved in where EVERY trade trying to build the building was utterly frustrated with the lack of communication and lack of basic information from the architect. The drawings were way off. Getting info was taking forever, yet all these trades had crews on the job that were getting paid big bucks but were standing around doing nothing cuz of miscommunication from the architect. That is costing the sub contractors big bucks and nothign helping the building getting built or helping with the looming deadline. Too many architects are all fluff... they knwo how to OVER-sell a job to a prospective client. Tell them timelines that are near impossible, give them budgets that are unrealistic and then take 90% of the time that they should be alotted and waste it on superficial crap that doesn't move the project forward, then rush out 1/2 finished drawings during that last 10% of time and send them out to sub contractors that then have to struggle on their end. I swear I think building costs could be cut by over 25% if these architects actually did their jobs correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Just remember, ANYONE can draft, and I mean anyone. There is almost nothing to it. Not many can design (I personally feel that only a small percentage of architects are good designers, although they wouldn't agree), but anyone can put together a set of CDs with a little time. Anyone can also do 3D, although to make a good rendering is a llittle more difficult, but nothing like designing a great building. Designing is based on talent, drafting is based on practice. Very few have talent... There's a hell of a lot to drafting. To be good at it, you have to want to be good, understand the technical aspects of building construction, take pride in your work, and pay attention to detail. Con docs are so bad nowadays because the ones doing them would rather be doing something else. The "drafters" are underpaid arch grads who all think drafting is beneath them so they do shitty work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanna_be_architect Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 There's a hell of a lot to drafting. To be good at it, you have to want to be good, understand the technical aspects of building construction, take pride in your work, and pay attention to detail. Con docs are so bad nowadays because the ones doing them would rather be doing something else. The "drafters" are underpaid arch grads who all think drafting is beneath them so they do shitty work. Ding, Ding we have a winner. Great Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janzer v1.0 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 WOW..you must be one of those damn engineers..LOL..just kidding. But seriously, maybe you're working with the wrong people. You deserve to get fried for this one too. I must say this.....I am an architectural technologist NOT an architect, and WE do all of the drawings on CAD. At my office (HOK Canada Inc.) our drawings are extremely complete and "good looking". They are precise and accurate as they should be. Whether the work we do is in Dubai, the UK or right here in Toronto when our sets go out they must be accurate. Millions of dollars and legal liabilities are at stake. Dont forget about the reputation. Drawings should be submitted to the city for approval and I can tell you this....they would never in a million years pass drawings that are incomplete especially when building a 60 storey skyscraper or other structures that will house thousands of people who's lives are at stake. Engineers also check and stamp drawings, and don't forget about the spec writers. Dont be so fast to blame an architect as it very well could have been a detail that should've been designed by an engineer my friend. Details at our office are designed from scratch using the local building codes wherever in the world the project may be. I do agree that in some instances people pull these details off of the internet (BAD IDEA), but i hope no one I know would ever attempt to do this. Why risk liablilty and besides we dont have the luxury of doing a detail twice. Everyday we fall behind our client may lose hunderds of thousands of dollars. I suggest you look to work with the real professionals. The OAA (Ontario Architects Association) would come down hard on anything not in professional standing. Maybe you should write the AIA (American Insitute of Architects) in regards to these so called architects producing "ugly" drawings. Maybe its just American architects??? Hmm I cant answer that question as I dont know. As for the GOD complex, well everyone is a little into themselves aren't they? And besides feeling like a GOD isn't so bad. Thank you for the space for letting me say my piece in defense of Canadian Architects and Technologists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Hello, I have worked in aviation and the last 24 years in the engineering / architectural industry of Hospitals. I am on the board of two medium size architectural firms. I am also a partner on a small medical equipment maufacturing facility. The passion of the subject under review is practically the same reason why I want to leave the design / construction and manufacturing industry. One of the architectural firm on which I sit on the board, they are the most arrogant creature I have seen on this planet. On the other hand, the other architectural firm is the most humble group guys I have met in my life. Some of the consulting engineers we have are just plain and simple incompetent and some are just too good to work in the design / construction industry. Some contractors are just dumb and some are very intelligent. Some are plain and simple thieves. When the intelligent contractors become thieves the end result is horrible. I happen to work mainly with the mechanical contractors, plumbing, havc etc.... I have consulting engineers who have no pride on their work, they just want to cut and paste and collect their fees. They don't coordinate their designs with other engineers and do not give enough informtion to the architects.... to achieve the correct coordinations. And God forbid you want to do a change.... they want to charge the whole design fee again. Recently, I was involved with one of these electrical consultants. We had place all these ceiling luminaires on 120VAC, the owner changed his request and now he wanted a luminaire requiring 460 - 3 - Phase. It was only a 40 bed ICU, this Engineer wanted $38,000.00 to change his drawing... the work of half day at the most. We talked with the financial guys and the doctors now can almost see the patients without lights. We will make sure that consultant gets no more jobs. We have engineer / contractors that are simply dumb.... God knows what I am saying... We had one that built the entire plumbing as shown on the drawing, he didn't understand these things are diagramatic.... That means he has to use his brain...... If there is a steel beam and he is going with a 4" pipe he didn't have to drill hundreds of beams, just lower the piping a few inches. There was 4 feet between the bottom part of the beam and the drop ceiling.... You could almost fly a guided misile through that space. Engineers.... Wao.... I worked in aviation.... You think that's precise engineering....!!! Well look at the DC-10, hydraulics go down and no redundacy of controls and the plane crashed.... Wao.... Look into the the MD-11, the supposed improved DC-10.... United Airlines had to get rid of them because not two were built alike.... Incredible, we had parts made of plastic on one version but aluminum on the next version.... Engineering being precise...... just look at our computers and video cards.... and Windows and Discreet.... isn't it the same as the construction industry.... No coordination among the specialties and trades... Or is it just white collar criminal activities..... Programs and computers that crash continuosly... Try to make your network work from the first go. Look at the Shuttle, called by many as an engineering wonder and brought down by a piece of styrophoam about 12"X4"x2". Heat shield tiles that would not stay glued to the fuselage. The F104 had cracked wing spars on the first year of operation while the B52 has been flying over 52 years and getting better. My point is that when there is a gathering of minds with the right honorable intentions of working together and cooperating without selfish intentions, then everything will turn right.... When you have different groups with hidden agenda's there is no architect that could be succesful. Have you looked at what a entry level architect gets paid.... Have you seen what an entry level chemical engineer gets paid? If there is somebody to blame on our industry for bad drawings.... blame the financial guys and their financial interest schedules forcing everybody to go on fast track..... At 54 years of age and having the opportunity to work as a consulting engineer, sit on the board the architectural firms, be in the manufacturing side and also the installation - construction phase.... Too many details to blame the poor traffic cop, the architect. I want to see people not complaining and just quietly working to solve issues. Solve issues without a dollar sign on the change orders.... MBR is 200% right...... That's why I want to get out of what I am doing and just be a college profesor and teach profesional ethics..... That's where the problem starts..... I grew up with two brothers on a 1,400 square foot house with loving parents that spent a lot of time with us. A similar family now needs a 3,000 to 4,000 SQF house and two working parents to be able to afford keeping up with the Jone's. This fast track society with shallow values is the real culprit of the problem. That' why there is these selfish attitudes driven by financial greed and not by the ethics of doing a good job. It is everybody on the loop.... Good Luck to everybody Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manta Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 "This fast track society with shallow values is the real culprit of the problem. That' why there is these selfish attitudes driven by financial greed and not by the ethics of doing a good job. It is everybody on the loop...." I couldn't have said it better myself, completely accurate !!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 nicely put elliot, i liked your post. .....to the vizers out ther, think of what happens when, or if you pass your own computer model off to someone else. sometimes you have time for it to be perfect, a lot of times you fudged areas, or only modeled paret of it, becaue that is the only area you were concerened with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 I too have problems with inaccurate drawings from architects, but I try and be polite and say 'your plans do not tie up with your elevations. Which would you like me to go with?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazygonzo20 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On 4/24/2005 at 2:21 AM, Iain Denby said: I too have problems with inaccurate drawings from architects, but I try and be polite and say 'your plans do not tie up with your elevations. Which would you like me to go with?' I agree with all. Fact is, the plans are crap, and the owners are the ones getting screwed, because i add $ when there is conflict. RFI's take too long, and don't get answered other times. So if plans are bad or contradictive we go with worse case scenario, and then build cheap. Owner gets screwed! Plain an simple. Owners should start pressuring the architecture system. Dump copy n past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Thompson Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) Totally agree. Bad plans lead to higher costs and compromises in quality, and it's the owners who end up paying the price. Quick and clear answers to RFIs could solve a lot, but when that doesn't happen, we have to assume the worst to keep moving. Owners definitely need to demand better from the start to avoid this mess. It's time for a change in how things are done. https://www.roofersofarlington.com/ Edited February 22 by Ryan Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Berntsen Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) This is a very interesting topic, and you are touching the core of why digital twins are so hard to achieve down the whole chain. The answer to your question is probably "budgets and time". First off there is a whole lot of competition in this segment, which leaves many companies no other option than offering a minimum viable product kind of thing, to be sure to get the bid. And then they hope to get the full project in the detail phase. However, you (and me) are usually getting files from the first or second phase, and not after the detail phase. (then the project would be marketed and partly sold already) And to the interesting part, which is directly related. No one is interested in taking the cost to be the firm responsible for any errors in the full digital twin, and hence they are forced to not go all the way, and then the market kicks in and make them go minimum bid anyways. People who verbosely mean digital twins are happening right now, are missing this responsible part. Who is going to pay for the extra detailing and extra sideman check and extra routine establishment? Not the architect/engineering office and absolutely not the customer. The drawing office will loose their bid if they add this massive cost. So this digital twin thing is maybe just happening where money means nothing to the client. And even here, time should be the catalysator for the model to be halfway complete. After closer to twenty years in this business, I am actually still waiting for this customer segment who are willing to 1) wait until the detail drawings are fulle done, and 2) take the responsibility for any errors in a full digital twin down the line eg on the construction site when things didn't go as planned. So budget is the missing link to get digital twins up and running in a broader sense of view, like the normal housing/apartment market, for an instance, and time would be the other link, because people don't wait to get viz made until the model has been detailed. Also, to add, the draftsmens job is not to satisfy us, but the goverment regulations. So why should they take any extra cost. This is my view on it. Edited July 19 by Jon Berntsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now