DennisHolland Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 PR? No, there is no PR whatsoever down in Madrid. Not at all, but yes there is a friendly lady on the phone when you call (not a word English but I know my Spanish un poco). My experience is that the advertising/marketingstructure is not there at all but as for my purchase, they did everything to get me my license and took my word that i actually paid and sent off my downloadlink. It all happened within' an hour starting with a first call. So there's no bad vibe down there or a nasty Victor who's now in control over 18000 anxiously waiting 3D fellows at all and just love to see most of them getting nervous over a release of Maxwell.... It's just irritating, so is the weather down here, who cares? What actually does bother me is the licensing structure with the single licence per proc. That is somewhat tricky for productionstudio's. Also, there's no real prove that, like Ernest' 8 coreworkers, actually can work perfect simultaniously with eight single versions of Maxwell as a team. But now something different, do we all read the other engins' release dates? Vray is up start of 2006 with a brandnew 1.5, Brazil will release 2.0 in a couple of months and they all are fresh ones including a full-gi and a lot of things which makes Maxwell so unique. In short, choices can be made and at the end of 2006 we can review things and discuss who's best of the rest. The couple more weeks for a V1.0 Maxwell? That's alright! Finally things are moving in renderland, moving fast....and i like it. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vizwhiz Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 how about re-starting up The Monthly Challenges ???? with whatever software is available on December 15th or so you cant render very much (very well) with vaporware so how a bout a Shoot Out at High Noon at OK Corral ???? a Year Ends Best http://www.CGarchitect.com Image using The Year Ends Best (available) Software (etc) ** (ok, so i live in Arizona where Tombstone is located) Randy i was just getting up The nerve To join a monthly challenge last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldo lanzi Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 i think that next limit philosophy ,is the same used for their software "it´s take a looooooooong time to get good results" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 There have been a few who have eluded to the point I'm going to make outright and that is that this could actually be a sales tactic. Case in point. Some years ago there was a little game called Diablo. It was a big success and became the backbone for what became a pretty succesfull game company (Blizzard). Eventually Diablo II was announced and started to generate some buzz. The buzzing kept growing and as the date for the release neared an anouncement was made that that the release would be delayed a couple of months. A couple of months turned into a couple of YEARS! After so much time the hype, and yelling, and flaming and cursing surrounding the game turned the release of Diablo II into a cultural event that trancended gaming. Diablo II is still sells in stores resonably well, now many years later. Of course, if NL is trying to create a fever pitch by delaying the release of Maxwell, it better be one snazzy piece of software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 Brian, I think there is some truth in what you said here. Logically speaking the people at NL should have a reasonable understanding of when their software will be ready. The selling of pre release copies of their software and the moving of release dates serves no purpose other than to tease people with the prospect of a full version. I believe they are trying to create as big a buzz as possible for their eventual release because they think that even with some bad press there eventually going to come out with more customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisHolland Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 Lets say that Brian is right and the tactics are to get the exposure for the V1.0 then we are the ones creating the buzz even more... If it's true (marketing scam) would it be right to think that the nov 22 release is not gonna happen? If this is one of those tricks then there should be one more fooling around to have it all to the top in this matter! I'm embarrassed to say but I start to enjoy this, in a strange kinda way...sorry for that. All checked the 28 page thread at the maxwellrender forum? Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 I'm wondering if there will be any negative reaction throughout the GC community if the November deadline is pushed back. Is there ever any consequence for this kind of behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisHolland Posted October 25, 2005 Share Posted October 25, 2005 I believe that, if there are any consequences, those will be only positive ones since they, who purchase a fresh copy then, won't feel the bitter tone it has for us. we feel left behind (if the purpose is just marketing) and we generate a buzz. In marketing every publicity is good, both positive and negative, because of the free airplay. We are generating airplay right here, right now because NL want us to (if the purpose is just marketing)... Somehow I don't believe it. The past months are not only months with cool features in Maxwell, also a whole fleet of bugs are popping up every other week so the chance is there that this is just to be sure they have a rocksolid render-engine waiting for us. Maybe they found a solution for the dielectric material all of a sudden and testing it this very day. Oh, I don't want to be held responsible for that line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 You’re probably right about the marketing impact and I'm not wishing that NL goes under from this. I simply want what was promised to me and the rest of the people who supported NL when they asked for it. I really do hope that they have a rock solid app. and there just tweaking some last minute things that will really make Maxwell incredible. I can't help but think about when they finally released the beta version, all the hype that led up to it's release and how excited everyone was to finally get their hands on it. Most people agree that it wasn't truly a Beta version, there were still some serious bugs and the GI wasn't delivered as promised. The beta although slightly more advanced than the alpha really didn't deliver what people were expecting, so I hope we are not equally disappointed in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yog Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Just to clear some things up for those not familiar with the back story. The vast majority of the users complaining are NOT complaining about the software itself. And if it were handled better most would be a little miffed at the delay, but wouldn’t feel the need to vent as they have (26 pages of argument generated in less than a day on the Maxwell forums). What HAS got people to this fever pitch of anger and disappointment is Next Limits apparent disrespect and disregard for it’s paying customers. Back in the early days of the alpha we were promised access to the beta version with “constant upgrades”. Since the “beta” was released back in June there has been one upgrade, which came a few days after the beta release, which was in fact really a bug fix to correct the fact the beta produced worse results than the alpha. A few days after that Next Limit decided that contrary to what it previously said, there wouldn’t be any more upgrades until the final release. Not exactly “constant upgrades” then ?. Prior to the beta being released we were told that the final program would include a dedicated material editor, instances, normal maps, clip mapping, etc. However the beta didn’t include any of these features, in fact the “beta” looked and felt very much like the “alpha”. We have told the final version will be much different, which means that apart from a few select “real” beta testers, no one knows exactly what they have bought yet, and Next Limit certainly aren’t telling. After releasing the statement about “no more upgrades until final release”, there was a bit of a flap on the forums about it. As a result Next Limit stated they would not be communicating to their customers through the forums again. This is one promise they have managed to keep as they haven’t been seen there for months. Some might call this childish ? Just a couple days ago, despite not making any statements on their own forums, Next Limit sent out a mail shot saying “buy quick at the discounted price before the October 31st release date”. Two days later an email arrived to say release had been pushed back another month. Seems like a fine line between dishonest and incompetent ? Despite major uproar on their own forums (a 26 page thread generated in less than a day), there has still been no official word on the delay by Next Limit on their own forums, which is why the passage in the last e-mail, “As always, we are at your disposal to answer any questions regarding Maxwell Render at maxwell@nextlimit.com and you can keep up to date at http://www.maxwellrender.com”, together with their past refusal to talk to paying customers, this seems like a lame joke in very bad taste. Next limit could easily deflect most of the flack they are getting on their own forums by being more clear about what the final product will include, but they choose not to. A couple test renders showing the new features or even a screen shot of the new interface would go a long way to reassure and calm people, but again nada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 but again nada. Thank you for the very informative post for those who haven't lived it. For the ADD types like me I shortened it to the more important parts, see quote above.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 That was great Yog, you really captured the essence of what is wrong here. I am still very surprised by the number of staunch supporters of NL on the forum; if I didn't know better I would say these people are paid employees that are trying to keep the chatter down to a minimum. Given all of the delays, broken promises and miscommunications we've had to endure over the last year you would think these people would be more upset by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yog Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Software deadlines slip. Anyone who has been around for more than a year knows this as a universal truth. It's how software companies cope with this that differenciates good companies from bad. Very few companies will anounce new software longer than six months in advance (any longer than that and the variables to complete it become too large to predict), and even then these companies generally give themselves a margin of error of about three months (release Q4 2005). Next Limit are the only company I know that has tried to predict an exact day of release nearly a year in advance. Right from the start I thought they were setting themselves up for a fall. Compare NL's handelling of Maxwell to Luxology's Modo-201 (the rendering module), which was anounced at Siggraph this year. Despite giving an "estimated" release date of Q4 2005, the anouncement was quickly followed by a near complete feature list, screen shots of the interfaces as well a number of sample renders and videos. Since then the developers of Modo have been regulars on their forums, explaining in more detail what will be in Modo-201, what wont be in it, explaining features in detail, and listing what they would like to add in future revistions, all accompanied with more test renders to help explain the new features. Now I'm not saying that Luxology will 100% hit their deadline, but if they don't I'm absolutely positive a decient explanation will follow. And another difference, although you can pre-order Modo-201 at a heavily discounted price, your credit card will not be charged until it ships. Although a little miffed, I can accept the delay to Maxwell's release. What I find harder to accept as a paid up customer is the feeling of being treated like an inconvenience by Next Limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 I'm a little worried that there is a lot more going on than they are telling us because we haven't seen a single example of what 1.0 can do, or any screen captures of the interface. Some would say that they are just being cautious about competition but I don't see how showing us what something is going to look like and what it's feature list is and what it is capable of is going to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffos Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 I am one of the unfortunate buyers of Maxwell. I am actually one of those who got banned from the Maxwell forum, because i complained. Yes. I complained, I asked my money back and they bannned me, never answered my request to get paid money back. NL team has done a nice job with Maxwell, but there stop the good deeds. Bought the program in Feb. There was a roadmap saying in 15 March we will have the beta gui and in May the final. I said, good deal. I will try it. Nothing came. The usual tactics are, 3-4 days before expiration date, make an announchement that they wont be ready! What is the most annoying thing is not delays. This CAN HAPPEN. In june, under pressure, they gave a version, that they called beta and said October the final. The problem is that the version they gave is nowhere near beta. And this is a clear fraud. Beta is not a word that NL found. Its a well known term in computer engineering, for a software that is full featured and entering the final phase of debugging. But the version we got in June, had even less features than the alpha !!!!!! Yes they added basic SSS and removed clipmaps and volumetric lights. And they called that a beta. This has nothing to do with planning, and getting out of schedule. This is a marketing decision to mislead customers. I have stopped dealing with NL,after they banned me, but a big suprise waits them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 buffos, it's good to see you here I wasn't aware that they had banned you from the Maxwell forum, what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Hmm, I wonder what's next... shutting down the whole forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Hey Buffos- good to see you around... the Maxwell forum has been less interesting without you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 I have stopped dealing with NL,after they banned me, but a big suprise waits them. By which you mean what? Please don't use this forum to issue threats against others. I understand your frustration, but please keep it civil. Maybe you just mean that all users will want a refund. I've thought about it, but so far it hasn't happened and I don't think I have much recourse from the US to Spain, anyway. If it was an American company, there would already be lawsuits. Someone's already suing Apple over the Nano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffos Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Ernest, i have no intention of threatening NL. You are right. If they were US based, they would be facing disaster, but ofcourse they would not act that way. I am sure. Hi! to all maxwell forum friends (and enemies ) I cannot blame them that they banned me ( i am not the easiest guy on earth to hear) but i blame them for lieing again and again and again. My opinion is that NL has allready lost the game. Why? Maxwell is not unique. It is not even based on their own unique algorithms. It common scientific knowledge. Sooner or later, renderers will reach and surpass Maxwells quality. But NL's (call me Victor) behaviour will not be forgotten. That is what is hard with bussiness. You just need to be bad once to close it down even if you were 1000 times nice. And NL is bad from start! As for refunds (they simply dont give refunds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeSee Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Buffos!!! Here you are. I was wondering what happened to you. Did you really get banned or you just messing around? The post on Maxwell forums is up around 511 posts so far (35 pages) and as always people have fallen somewhere between love NL and hate NL. I wrote a sample letter and posted it on the forum that I figured NL would have issued by now, but no dice. Those guys are real bad at communicating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Is this really such a shock? Arnold renderer was supposed to ship for Max 'a couple months' after their Siggraph appearance. Shave and a Haircut was announced as a Q4 release in 2002 for Max (we got it in 7.5 last summer). A little closer to home, Vray and FinalRender have both often missed release dates. I am sure they will release it when it is ready just like all the other companies. What's the rush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 John- Read Yog's post (previous page). Delays aren't the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 Yes there is a lot more going on here than just missed deadlines which I still believe should have never happened. Buffos, I think it's pretty bad that NL banned you from the forum; I can understand your frustration with them and their policies. I'm also equally frustrated with certain members that refuse to admit that NL has done anything wrong even when the truth is starting them in the face. This isn't a simple matter of a few missed release dates, this is a breach of contract and the stink of it is there is no recourse for us. I still want to use Maxwell and will be as excited as any when it finally comes out, but my faith in NL and their dedication to me as a customer has been totally destroyed. I'm glad to see that some of the more sensible members have found their way here, thanks for the backup on the Maxwell forum guy's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I'm glad to see that some of the more sensible members have found their way here, thanks for the backup on the Maxwell forum guy's! Sure thing... it's easy to back you up when the facts are so clearly in your favor. I'm just stunned by NL's behavior- I can't remain passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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