Maxwell 1.0 Release is pushed back again

[GeraldH]

Am I just missing them...or have the 500+ post threads dissapeared?

[Adehus]

It's in 'Off Topic' section

[bugyboo]

Hi guys Maxwell friends

 

i read all posts here.. it seems a fair discussion about NL behaviors the first thing that was hit me when i just bought maxwell and was reading the forum and i saw Oscar saying "NO MORE UPDATE " and he wont post in their own forum again !! that really shocked me....

[siliconbauhaus]

I have to chuckle to myself when I read all of this and over at the maxwell forum.

 

I agree with the fact that next limits' attitude has been frustrating / annoying / arrogant / call it what you like and the delays with the release are disappointing to say the least.

 

That being said, I have a render engine that is usable in production and it cost me $395! You would be hard pushed to beat that price on any other render engine. Yes it is buggy in certain areas and yes more feature would be nice but I'm still pushing out images with it and I'm happy with my results and a single render job puts you in the black. I know a guy over at vizdepot who's doing 500 renders with maxwell for a housing company and he's more than happy with it.

 

As Dennis said, just sit back, wait and have a coffee.

[DennisHolland]

There you go Pat!

 

Talk to you later,

Dennis

[Devin Johnston]

I honestly don't see how Maxwell is any where close to ready for production in its current state, at least not for full scale architectural renderings. I know that some people are using it in a limited fashion doing small images but it's misleading to say you can us it in a production environment. The only way I can see you using Maxwell right now is in doing low res images for power point shows or something like that, high rez stuff simply takes to long.

[ShaunDon]

Hey Maxer. That's pretty much why I'm content to sit on the fence and watch what y'all folks do when you finally get your binaries. Between the now infamous render times and what I'm reading about their licensing scheme, there's no way in hell we'll consider it for production anytime soon. VRay's just too damn good a deal, both in cost and speed.

Is everyone buying in to play around with the new tech, or are you running super computers? Just curious what kind of work everyone wants to cut Maxwell loose on.

Oh, and as far as the topic of this thread -- it's been said, but Chaos learned to stop anouncing release dates since VRay 1.5 was due out in May of 2004 as of last report. As fellow users well know, we're still waiting. But personally I'm content to get the updates and patches from Vlado every month or two -- getting the new features in incremental steps is a lot easier adjust to.

Shaun

[Sawyer]

You know I hate to say it but I love Maxwell because I think it's made Vray a better product New things have been added to 1.5 and I think they are (will be) great. The interesting thing was when vray included a non-biased option (PPT) it soon became clear noone used it because it took too long. I have the feeling if Maxwell included other rendering options that we quicker and slightly less accurate people would have jumped to those rather than the time consuming accurate option.

 

I think soon (maybe not in Nov) everyone will get the final product and many people will be happy. I do think too many people are too bitter for NL to really recover the good will they began with. What could they do to make people forget that they personally withdrew contact? Everyone gets pissed when software is late but we forgive, but to withdraw contact with the clients thats really big. Especially with the personal nature for these forums, I imagine if Jeff just said "S*@&%w you all I will never talk again", we would leave. Thats personal.

[lexpattison]

Hey there - first time I've posted here at CGarchitect. I just want to point out that alot of the members over at the Maxwell forum are not as bent out of shape as Maxer and Buffos. Most of us either understand software development and the inevitable delays, as well as the fact that pre-purchase does not equate to beta-testing or some special treatment - it just means we get a price break. It's usually the hot-heads that run around to other forums stirring the pot - so it would probably benefit anyone who is interested to check out the positive feedback at the forum as well.

 

Cheers.

[Devin Johnston]

Lex, there are just as many people that are "bent out of shape" about this as there are people who are fine with it. As I've said before what I'm most upset about is the lack of communication and information that Next Limit has provided, as well as their cancellation of the updates which were all promised to us when we purchased the software. Regardless whether or not they experienced delays as a result of Beta testing they should have continued to uphold their other obligations, not default on them.

 

As far as me being a hot head please read this thread again and tell me if anything I said is untrue. The people on this forum have the right to know what is going on with Maxwell and I see no reason why informing them about the many problems we have experienced is a bad thing. I'm not flaming Next Limit, I want to see Maxwell up an running as much as anyone, but I think their business practices leave much to be desired.

[Fran]

Maxwell announced today to some of it's customers that they will be pushing back the official release to November 22nd. I for one have been waiting for 8 months to get my hands on this piece of software and now it looks like I'm going to have to wait even longer. For those of you who don't know what's going on Next Limit was originally supposed to release Maxwell in July but said because of development problems they were moving the date back to October. Those of us who pre ordered Maxwell were also told that Next Limit was not going to give us any more updates to the beta version of Maxwell because this would slow down development and they wanted to make sure the October release was met. Today's official announcement hasn’t even been received by most of the Maxwell community and is causing some serious debate about the truthfulness of Next Limit with regards to how far along the are with the development of Maxwell. It also seems that Next Limit has been using these pre release special offers to generate revenue and increase the buzz about the software even though they knew it would not be ready when they said it would. I would like to warn anyone who is considering purchasing Maxwell to think twice about it. Since July communication between Next Limit and the Maxwell customers has been almost non existent, even the most basic question goes unanswered. This is not the way to do business but Next Limit doesn’t seem to see it that way.

 

I want to be clear on this. You purchased the alpha software 8 months ago?

 

If NL had stopped the pre-order price back in July (when the V1 was supposed to be released AFAIK), people whould have screamed blue murder. Since they've extended it, it is now some kind of scam to lure in more revenue? Sorry, I just don't buy that theory.

 

This is software. Drift happens. These are programmers and scientists, not shiny-toothed marketing sharks. I have invested modestly in Maxwell. I won't know if it was a good gamble until V1 comes out. However, unlike some, I haven't staked any deadlines, my job, or my business on a software's maiden release.

 

Those who were banned from the forum had to go a really long way to get to that point. If people were banned just for complaining (or even being insulting to NL and to other forum members), then you wouldn't be there. Andrew wouldn't be there either. Everyone has their moments. But very few have managed to cross the line.

 

I know I am in disagreement with some very distinguished members of this forum. I trust that it is tolerated here.

[daros]

To many words for a simple problem. Quality. NL think they need a few weeks more to reach the wanted quality? for me it's ok.

I bought Maxwell licenses for 136 processors 4 or 5 months ago. I'm waiting too but for me it's ok.

 

I trust NL. I think 99% of Maxwell customers trust NL even if they are disappointed with the delay. That's the most important.

 

But it's only a delay. Wat's the problem. Maxwell is a revolution. Now, even with a bit delay, the revolution arrives. But it arrives!!! the first one for me after 12 years of CG.

 

David Rossmann

 

http://www.arkadin.biz

http://www.stack-studios.com

[lexpattison]

Maxer,

 

My hothead comment was directed more toward other members that have been abusive and unproffesional - maybe not yourself in this case. I understand your point of view, but think it's rather extreme since (as Fran has mentioned) the alpha was released only 8 months ago (for only $400!!). Maybe everyone is so aggitated about the release because they got a good taste of a great product, and I will admit that the communication has been limited. But if you want lip service, try one of the bigger renderers who will sell you the moon and deliver much less. For a company of their size, it's fortunate they have any time to communicate at all - and at least when they do it's from an actual developer.

[Devin Johnston]

Fran, I haven't staked any deadlines, my job, or business on the release of Maxwell, your right that would be a stupid thing to do. As for the release dates you and many others seem to think that just because other software manufacturers make it a habit to miss deadlines that somehow that makes it ok, I disagree.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I did get a taste of what Maxwell was offering and I wanted more. That's part of what makes this a hard situation, however all of this mess can be placed firmly on NL's solders. Answer me this question, why have we not heard a word from NL on this? In the e-mail they sent out they said their would be weekly updates to keep us informed, well where is this weeks? If they would just say something I'd be placated and I'd probably shut up but the silence is more than I can stand.

[AdamT]

Most of us either understand software development and the inevitable delays, as well as the fact that pre-purchase does not equate to beta-testing or some special treatment - it just means we get a price break.

Normally I would agree, but in this case NL explicitly advertised that pre-purchase *would* entitle you to special treatment, i.e., constant updates during the development process. IMO they would have no problems with their customers if they had not breached that agreement.

 

Personally I never expected them to meet their initial deadline, but as long as I could use the most up-to-date version of the software it was okay with me. Well, they didn't, I can't, and it isn't.

 

The guys at NL are good software engineers but they're very, shall we say, truth challenged.

[luckytohaveher]

Anyone ever written any software???

Try it some time and then you will understand -- trust me on this one...

That being said, I haven't been happy with any lighting solution since Lightscape was decapitated.

Mental Ray, Brazil, and Vray -- they all do lighting solutions amazingly well. I am just having a hard time getting excited. Maybe it will be that much better. I just doubt the competitors will be sitting on their hands.

If the product is really doing what they say -- two weeks or two months won't make a bit of difference. It will change lighting as we know it...

[buffos]

Luckytohaveher.

 

I have written alot of code. And not simple one.

For scientific research. I know that i cannot have a tight schedule.

For that reason, because this is common knowledge, i would never sell and advertise something that i know i cannot deliver.

On the other hand, i know that when i predict that in one month i would finish something, i am going to announce that i will be ready in 2 months, so i will have time to check other stuff.

Also i would never lie to someone about what can or cannot my program do.

I would not market my alpha products

 

 

daros

 

I am sure that NL treats you will much more respect that with small users.

You have a large render family, and actually are a moving advertisment for them. So i am sure when they see a daros request, they dont simply ignore it. This happens to all companies , even i have better treatment to big customers than small, but there is a limit to how low that treatment can go.

You may also have inside information about the current state of Maxwell, and so you are not anxious about what is going on. But we dont.

 

 

Fran

 

I was banned because i shouted, and shouted alot, and asked my money back. We had a deal, they broke it, and they are not giving back my money.

How do you call that?

They banned me for that. If you know anything more than i do, please inform me. I can also forward you the banning email if you want. (i dont want in public because i respect the private nature of emails)

 

Can you please tell me why NL does not give their customers a way out?

Tell me one good reason

[Jason Jacobs]

I know a guy over at vizdepot who's doing 500 renders with maxwell for a housing company and he's more than happy with it.

 

Hi. It's me. The guy using Maxwell in production, doing 500 renderings. Yes, Maxwell has bugs, but I work through them. I've adapted to Maxwell's current state and I'm making very good money with it.

 

I agree with the fact that NL could have done a lot of things differently regarding communication. Yes, they come off as arrogant jerks. Yes, they are remaining silent during a communication-critical time. Yes, they postponed the release date a few times. Yes, they gave us an updated alpha and called it a beta. They've done a LOT to warrant anger and resentment. I will never deny that. What I will deny and argue is that I do not and will not believe that they did it intentionally! Come on everyone. Do you honestly think that they would devise a plan to cause massive resentment and hysteria just for marketing purposes? That's a conspiracy theory if I've ever heard one! They are a bunch of computer-coding geeks (no offense intended) with an awesome idea and a short staff. I am quite sure they are working non-stop on Maxwell. Do you really want them to divert their attention away from the important stuff to pamper an unbalanced and ungrateful user base? I salute them for seeing the bigger picture. They probably are very confident that when Maxwell is released, all of this will be forgotten. If they've lost any customers along the way, they will gain 100x more with their incredible product. The faster they can get it ready and released, the faster all this will go away. In essence, they are treating the problem (no Maxwell 1.0) and not the symptom (current upset users).

 

I don't feel that NL owes me anything except 1.0 - and it will be here in due time. I would be thrilled to death if they posted some screen shots or renderings, but I'm not banking on it. And I certainly would never feel I was owed my money back. It's common knowledge that software is usually non-refundable (which requires no explanation). I also do not consider this behavior as a "breach of contract". As a small business owner, I totally understand NL's sudden desire to stop the "constant updates" and communication. Look how fast The Chaos Group added PPT with plans to add a physical sky. You can argue 'til your lips fly off and sail across the room, but that isn't a coincidence. They've ceased updates and communication for good reasons - they're trying to protect their intellectual property from getting jacked before 1.0 hits.

 

I want you to understand that I don't condone all of NL's behavior, but I can definitely understand it. Let's all just relax and have ANYTHING but a coffee. Perhaps a few sedatives instead?

[Devin Johnston]

Do you really want them to divert their attention away from the important stuff to pamper an unbalanced and ungrateful user base?

 

Actually all I want is what they told me I would get, software updates to the most current version, answers to questions, and information on development. I don't see how this is pampering and I don't see how the user base is unbalanced unless you mean that they've managed to piss off half of their users. I'm also not ungrateful, I simply want what I purchased (see above) it's that simple. If you’re making money with Maxwell I'm glad, you should feel lucky because 98% of us are unable to achieve that goal.

 

I don't think their plan was to have people resent them, I'm not even sure if they had a plan. I think they woefully miscalculated a whole lot of things and they did it over and over again. I think they don't care what their customers think and if they do they have a funny way of showing it.

 

 

I don't feel that NL owes me anything except 1.0 - and it will be here in due time.

 

I still don't understand the thinking behind this; you purchased more than the final product with your pre release. You and I were sold a package of goods along with the alpha/beta because NL was asking us to take a risk on them. One of the reasons I purchased when I did was because I knew that while I was waiting for the final product I was going to be able to experiment with the program as it developed. The advantage of this is to give the user a much better understanding of how the software works from the ground up. It also allows you to transition into the final product much quicker so that putting it into production can be a quick and easy thing. It also gives you the ability to suggest changes or additions in order to make the package better. The fact that they've changed release dates over and over doesn’t bother me as much as these other issues, it should bother anyone who made the same deal with NL as I did.

[daros]

x Buffos

 

buffos... you checked it all!!!

 

1) i have the same informations you have and all other users have.

2) i don't recive more respect other users recive.

3) i don't have any inside informations.

4) i'm ansius as you are. (xanax?)

5) the only way to speak with them is by calling them.

6) Please don't say things about me before you asked me.

7) be positive.

8) relax you.

9) try to use your time in a more useful way.

 

Best regards

 

David Rossmann

 

http://www.arkadin.biz

http://www.stack-studios.com

 

PS. x buffos

I give all my clients the same tratment. Ex. Zaha Hadid London recives from me exactly the same tratment as every little client here in italy. Same quality, priority, prices. For that i never lost a client in 5 years.

[Fran]

...One of the reasons I purchased when I did was because I knew that while I was waiting for the final product I was going to be able to experiment with the program as it developed. The advantage of this is to give the user a much better understanding of how the software works from the ground up. It also allows you to transition into the final product much quicker so that putting it into production can be a quick and easy thing. It also gives you the ability to suggest changes or additions in order to make the package better. The fact that they've changed release dates over and over doesn’t bother me as much as these other issues, it should bother anyone who made the same deal with NL as I did.

 

Maybe you have a different definition of "experiment" than I do. People who have been experimenting with the released versions will certainly have a leg up on those who haven't. I don't expect there to be much more of a learning curve when V1 is released than there is right now. I expect a couple of new features, improved features, improved rendertimes and more comprehensive materials. I don't expect to have to relearn Maxwell with V1.

[Jason Jacobs]

Hi Devin,

 

Actually all I want is what they told me I would get, software updates to the most current version, answers to questions, and information on development.

Is that all you want? I'm reminded of The Jerk when Steve Martin said, "I don't need anything...except this lamp, but that's it, nothing else. I don't need anything else except this lamp...and this chair...and this picture..." That's quite a bit considering that they're probably under unhealthy amounts of stress, as is, trying to get 1.0 done. I'm fairly sure that they don't have the time or resources to make "constant updates" to all the plug-ins, answer every email and post, draft informative newsletters, and still get 1.0 out the door. Honestly though, if their problem is a short staff, they need to hire more folks. I agree that they should have given the users what they said they would. But again, I can understand and cope with these issues.

 

I'm also not ungrateful, I simply want what I purchased (see above) it's that simple.

This is where lots of folks differ. For me, it was about purchasing a stunningly real and simple rendering engine at a 60% discount. I wasn't concerened with all the other "fluff". Honestly Devin - what attracted and enticed you to purchase Maxwell in the first place? Was it the promise of constant updates and being involved with the development of Maxwell or was it the power, ease-of-use and possibilites that Maxwell offered?

 

 

If you’re making money with Maxwell I'm glad, you should feel lucky because 98% of us are unable to achieve that goal.

Devin, just out of curiosity, which platform are you working with? With a username like Maxer I would assume 3ds max? What industry are you in (architectural, product, industrial, 3dfx, etc)?

 

Also, where did you get 98%? I'd also be willing to bet that the folks who aren't making money with it either A) aren't in 3D for the money B) have no self-motivation C) are impatient, easily frustrated people D) work strictly with dialectrics, or E) insert your excuse here

 

I think they don't care what their customers think and if they do they have a funny way of showing it.

I'll agree that NL is not the most customer service oriented company. They probably care what their customers think, but they care more about finishing their work. They definitely need to find a balance.

 

One of the reasons I purchased when I did was because I knew that while I was waiting for the final product I was going to be able to experiment with the program as it developed. The advantage of this is to give the user a much better understanding of how the software works from the ground up. It also allows you to transition into the final product much quicker so that putting it into production can be a quick and easy thing. It also gives you the ability to suggest changes or additions in order to make the package better.

This is great argument and a I've never looked at it this way before. you're correct. They're cutting us out of the whole learning experience and when 1.0 arrives, they're essentially placing us on equal footing with Johnny New User. Good point, Devin. But on the other side of that, one could point out that Maxwell is freakin' easy. Any transition into the final product will most likely be as involved as, "where did they put the render button?" Of course, I'm being silly. I know there will be some sort of learning curve, but nothing huge like Brazil or V-Ray.

 

Let me just reiterate that I (and most likely many others) bought Maxwell for it's power, ease, and discount. The other stuff doesn't matter.

[Fran]

Jason, there really isn't any constructive purpose for speculating as to why people decide not to use MW for production. The workflow obviously works for you and that's great. The best shot at using MW for production right now is for exteriors. I don't do exteriors.

 

Even though I've had some good results with interior test scenes, when it came to trying to render print-quality resolution for a recent commission, it was obvious there weren't enough days before deadline to get something useable. I ended up reworking the scene for Vray (and the client was extremely pleased with the result).

 

It remains to be seen whether Maxwell will even be viable for interiors without the post-production denoising that basically destroys all the fine points of MW illumination and materials.

[daros]

In Maxwell a older stupid user has one day advantage over the new intelligent user. It's too easy to use.

It's not a advantage.

[Devin Johnston]

Alright here goes:

Is that all you want? I'm reminded of The Jerk when Steve Martin said, "I don't need anything...except this lamp, but that's it, nothing else. I don't need anything else except this lamp...and this chair...and this picture..." That's quite a bit considering that they're probably under unhealthy amounts of stress, as is, trying to get 1.0 done. I'm fairly sure that they don't have the time or resources to make "constant updates" to all the plug-ins, answer every email and post, draft informative newsletters, and still get 1.0 out the door. Honestly though, if their problem is a short staff, they need to hire more folks. I agree that they should have given the users what they said they would. But again, I can understand and cope with these issues.

I think this is pretty simple, I want what they said they would deliver no more no less. You can talk around it all day long if you want but I have the e-mails to prove that they intended to do all of those things and to be honest I'm under a lot of stress all the time but that doesn’t prevent me from meeting my deadlines and upholding my obligations to my customers.

Devin - what attracted and enticed you to purchase Maxwell in the first place? Was it the promise of constant updates and being involved with the development of Maxwell or was it the power, ease-of-use and possibilites that Maxwell offered?

I won't lie; all of the things you mentioned turned me on to Maxwell; for sure the ease of use was one of the major factors. Price was also a factor however just because something is discounted does that mean that I shouldn’t expect the company to uphold their end of the deal. After all it was NL that came up with the scheme in the first place, they didn't have to offer all of those things and I certainly didn't make them do it; so why not expect everything that was advertised. When I buy a car and they say it comes with free oil changes for the life of the car, I'd be plenty mad if I went back to get it and they told me that they were discontinuing that practice because they were to busy and stressed out.

Also, where did you get 98%? I'd also be willing to bet that the folks who aren't making money with it either A) aren't in 3D for the money B) have no self-motivation C) are impatient, easily frustrated people D) work strictly with dialectrics, or E) insert your excuse here

I watch the forum and I see the images posted, most of which are nice but are just people rendering close ups of parts of buildings or chairs or i-pods, stuff like that. There are 13000+ registered users, let's say 10,000 own one or more copies, so 2% of them actually use Maxwell to make money and that's 200 people. I'm being generous here because I think that number is much much smaller. Read what Fran said, there are only specific situations where Maxwell is capable of creating a high rez image in less than 15 hours; most people don't have that kind of time to wait for one image to render.

But on the other side of that, one could point out that Maxwell is freakin' easy. Any transition into the final product will most likely be as involved as, "where did they put the render button?"

I'll give you that; I never said Maxwell was this complicated thing to use. When I said experiment with the program as it develops I was talking more about testing out the new features, materials, compatibility with plugins, cooperative rendering, those kinds of things.