Maxwell 1.0 Release is pushed back again

[Jason Jacobs]

Jason, there really isn't any constructive purpose for speculating as to why people decide not to use MW for production. The workflow obviously works for you and that's great. The best shot at using MW for production right now is for exteriors. I don't do exteriors.

 

Hi Fran. I guess I'll have to speculate since everyone is being vague as to why they can't use it in production. Also, I was simply reinforcing my point that 98% was an unreasonable estimate. I'm honestly surprised you posted this because I know you've been making good money with Maxwell too - even on slow interiors. My argument stands. There's no reason why someone cannot make money with Maxwell in its current state despite its bugs. Yes, my exterior renderings only take 4 hours which is dramatically different from interior render times, but I've been producing interiors with Maxwell too. I just know, in advanced, that they will need to cook longer. In my previous encounters, most clients didn't mind waiting longer for a Maxwell rendering, but then there were some who couldn't wait, and I repsect that. If my deadline doesn't allow for extra baking time (or if I need an animation), then it's V-Ray for me. Not every client needs it "yesterday". We're on the same side of the issue here. I'll add a few more to my previous post:

 

Folks who aren't making money with Maxwell either A) aren't in 3D for the money B) have no self-motivation C) are impatient, easily frustrated people D) work strictly with dialectrics, or E) produce animations F) work strictly with interiors G) insert your excuse here

 

I'm sure there are others that I missed.

[Adehus]

Jason-

 

You're doing exterior renderings for production- probably the only type of rendering where Maxwell's rendering times are in any way acceptable. You're using Max on a Windows box- the Max plugin is by far the most refined, and ditto for the Windows version of the app.

 

When you say:

 

"I agree that they should have given the users what they said they would. But again, I can understand and cope with these issues."

 

...I'm inclined to think that you're saying this mainly as the beneficiary of the best software being used under the absolute most favorable conditions. Given that perspective, I find it a little galling that you'd suggest that not using Maxwell in production is somehow the fault of the user.

[Ernest Burden III]

I guess I'll have to speculate since everyone is being vague as to why they can't use it in production.

 

Glass does not work properly. It does not cast a shadow as if it is a transparent material---unless, perhaps, the render is left for weeks?

 

Architectural rendering is all about glass. At least good ones are.

 

 

Not every client needs it "yesterday".

 

Really? Where do you find these clients?

 

Folks who aren't making money with Maxwell either A) aren't in 3D for the money B) have no self-motivation C) are impatient, easily frustrated people D) work strictly with dialectrics, or E) produce animations F) work strictly with interiors G) insert your excuse here

I'm sure there are others that I missed.

 

Now that's just insulting.

[siliconbauhaus]

Now that's just insulting.

I'm not quite sure what it is that you find insulting about that statement. It's simply his opinion like all the other statements being made to which people either agree or disagree with.

I still dont see what everyone is getting their knickers in a twist over. I bought maxwell for 395 and will get 1.0 whent it's released. Where else are you going to get a render engine for that price? I still have great faith in maxwell despite all the handbag throwing over on their forum. The bottom line for me is the first render I did with it paid for it.

runs off to avoid the handbags being thrown

[Fran]

Jason, I have made $0 with Maxwell. The one actual production I used it for wasn't a paying gig. I don't know where you got the idea that I'd made all kinds of money with it. My disagreement with you on this issue is your speculation as to why people aren't using Maxwell for production while you're going gangbusters with it (and the work you've done with it is very good). I thought I was very specific with my reason. Your list reads like a Mental Ray user's list of reasons why people don't like to use it (or Vray or Max radiosity or C4D radiositiy) - too lazy, too stupid, too uninterested in learning how to program shaders...

 

The fact is that it is not user limitations in this case, but hard facts - dielectrics take 10's of hours to clear and cause all kinds of noise. SSS causes all kinds of noise - so forget about realistic looking window treatments or lampshades. Plastics have a white noise in certain situations that I've never seen resolved by sampling. Coorperative rendering (our only hope of having realistic render times) doesn't work. Clip maps don't work.

 

I didn't purchase alpha software expecting to use it for production. I didn't purchase beta software expecting to use it for production. It really was a gamble that I made with both eyes open and I knew full well that there was a good chance that MW would not ever work for my kind of production.

 

Most firms have a policy against using beta software for production. For the most part, it is a good policy. I took a chance on using Maxwell for a production and it didn't work out. But I had plan B - come to terms with the fact that I'd have to use Vray and I'd have to make it so that my client wouldn't ask "Why doesn't this look like a photo? The preliminary you showed me looked like a photo." He didn't. He also didn't ask me what software I used and I didn't tell him.

 

This is too complex an issue to have a "Fer me or agin' me" attitude about Maxwell. Our experience with MW is what forms our perceptions about the current state of the release. I pay attention to what others are experiencing too and try to look at from their POV - at least, once they get past the "NL sucks!" part.

[Ernest Burden III]

I'm not quite sure what it is that you find insulting about that statement. It's simply his opinion

 

OK, Let me translate this:

 

"Folks who aren't making money with Maxwell"

A) aren't in 3D for the money

if you aren't happily using MWR then you must be an amateur

 

B) have no self-motivation

how could this be insulting?

 

C) are impatient, easily frustrated people

lack the zen to appreciate the art of waiting and being unmoved by missed deadlines and angry customers

 

D) work strictly with dialectrics,

what part of your body can you do without? Glass is a vital part of rendering architecture, so having everything else be perfect still means an unaccpetable rendering.

 

E) produce animations

having a full-sevice business is icky. By the way, animation being my most profitable product, I should be willing to give it up to use Maxwell?

 

F) work strictly with interiors

some architects think this way--that's not design, that's decorating.

 

G) insert your excuse here

any reason you may produce as to why you feel Maxwell in its curent state and with the behaviour of its producer are not suitable for mission-critical (meaning 'will my kids eat this week') production is ultimately just an excuse, see above.

 

Insult is subjective

[_PopArt]

Sorry to break in here with my first post. I've been on since the beginning with maxwell, the present situation is a bit sensitive, and all of the points i see here are valid.

For some time now alot of big companies have been considering implementations of mlt algorithms. Most of the ideas we are seeing implemented right now in maxwell have been floating around for a few years, and, as is always the case, the initial ideas were brought about by the usual 'unsung heroes,' who disappear as the idea they founded starts to become a concrete market interest. There are several render engines in the works (for some time now) which have for some time implemented mlt/bi-directional algorithms, and we know that maxwell development goes back a few years.

But the work market is a tough place, and for a lot of companies, a big question from the beginning was, 'is the idea ripe yet, will it work?'...And the general conclusion was that, while the algorithms are capable of producing stunning images, the possibility of having a successful implementation (one ready soon which could adequately satisfy the market's need) at least for the present moment are pretty slim. So it was placed on the 'backburner,' so to speak.

So as usually happens, somebody's gonna be the first to market it, and many other developers are more than happy to sit back, and see what happens, not take the risk, continue development (implementing successful features, eliminating features that don't work), and most important of all, by watching maxwell user's reaction have an enormous competitive advantage in being to continue their develepment being able to see what user reactions are the current maxwell implementations, and develop in silence.

So maxwell, in being the first to go on the market, has kind of backed itself into a corner. They've done fantastic work, and the render engine so far is looking very good, but they've probably rushed the product onto the market too soon, and this is causing all kinds of trouble for them. Now that they've let the cat out of the bag (or opened the pandora's box), they are forced to development/innovate at a real fast pace, and they feel the paranoia that comes with having so many eyes on them, and the whole preorder idea, which at the beginning seemed like a naive but good idea, is working like a double edged sword - yes its generating interest in their product, but its led them into a totally contradictory situation.

Small companies are always at risk. When gi/photon mapping initially came onto the scene, there were hundreds of small companies, after a few years, only a handful remain. This is the next big thing, and its gonna be survival of the fittest, as usual....

[siliconbauhaus]

Insult is subjective

 

Mate I fully understand where your coming from. My point was that everyone's been stating his or her opinions and you have the option to agree/disagree with them but they're still opinions. I've always considered you to be one of the founding fathers here and I've always respected your points of view but I still dont think he was trying to insult you.

 

The point that I keep making is that maxwell cost less than $400 for a good length of time. It's not a $50 dollar risk but you can recoup that ammount with a single job easily. It's not viable for some situations yet but for exterior images it is quite useable. Most people dont tend to draw with a single pencil so why limit yourself to a single piece of software? I still use Vray for certain tasks and maxwell for others.

[jackb602]

I've been resisting the temptation to jump in here, but I think I'll give in. Imagine this exchange:

 

client: hey your website has some really cool work on it, will you do a rendering for me?

 

renderer: sure, but I'm kind of working the kinks out of my process so it might take a while. I'll give you an early bird price of $400 instead of $1000.

 

client: sounds great, when do you think it will be ready?

 

renderer: in a couple of months

 

client: great, I'll check back then

 

...

 

client: so, it's been two months, is that rendering done?

 

renderer: uh no, it will be another two months

 

client: hmm, ok

 

...

 

client: well, now it's been four months, is the rendering ready?

 

renderer: not yet, but it'll definitely be ready in another two months

 

...

 

client: ok it's been six months now, can I have the rendering now?

 

renderer: look, I'm working very hard, I'll have it in another two months

 

client: well you keep saying that, and you keep missing the deadline, so I'm not buying that excuse

 

renderer: well now you've hurt my feelings! I'm not talking to you anymore (but I will hold on to your $400 by the way)

 

That's more or less the behavior that alot of Maxwell customers seem perfectly ok with. And I suppose it's their right to pay for things with no expectation of when they will receive them (maybe I can hit some of you guys up for a loan now and then?). But do these really seem like good standards for doing business? I've heard the argument that software development takes longer, is uncertain, etc. If you know software development (which I don't) then you know what is reasonable to commit to. I wouldn't promise a rendering in four hours.

 

Of course, if Maxwell didn't look like a product with enormous potential, I'd have stopped thinking about it long ago. I suppose that's why everyone is worked up about it. But to be clear, if any of us, no matter how great our work is, treated our clients the way Next Limit has treated its paying customers, we would be out of work in no time.

 

Jack

[Adehus]

Mate I fully understand where your coming from. My point was that everyone's been stating his or her opinions and you have the option to agree/disagree with them but they're still opinions. I've always considered you to be one of the founding fathers here and I've always respected your points of view but I still dont think he was trying to insult you.

Jason's opinion about the useability of the software is fine, but his opinion that those of us who don't see Maxwell as being fit for production are somehow deficient is an affront.

 

Hard for me to see it any other way... consider this my opinion.

[Ernest Burden III]

I still dont think he was trying to insult you.

 

Not me, personally.

 

I gambled on Maxwell. I still think that gamble will pay off, but it hasn't yet.

 

If I had more time on my hands (being that I'm too busy trying to meet deadlines with too-slow software and too-slow talent (me)) I could find ways to use Maxwell as it is and has been for most of this year. Many people already have. That alone does not make it 'production-ready', nor does it make the rest of us lazy, unprofessional or inflexible.

[luckytohaveher]

Just to clarify...

1.) This was 0.x software, not even beta...

2.) They said hey, "If you want to try" it give us $400.

3.) You did it.

4.) They slipped.

5.) Your mad?

Anybody want to buy a bridge? I got this one in Brooklyn, N.Y. You pay me $1M now and I will be ready to sell it to you in 6 months for another $1M...

You knew the risks, you knew the bet... You lost...

Just be thankful if they don't go belly-up and you actually get a real product someday...

[Devin Johnston]

You knew the risks, you knew the bet... You lost...

 

 

You know I've heard this line about 1000 times over the last week, do you really know what it is your saying? "You knew the risks" actually no I didn't know the risks and why should I, this was the first time I purchased a alpha/beta program, and actually what I expected was the same thing I expect from any legitimate company; what they promised. I don't recall there being a disclaimer on NL's web site saying:

 

IF YOU BUY OUR SOFTWARE DON'T EXPECT TO GET ANYTHING THAT WE PROMISED EXCEPT FOR A HALF COMPLETE ALPHA SOFTWARE THAT WE MAY OR MAY NOT PROVIDE UPGRADES ON DEPENDING ON WHAT OUR MOODE IS, AND THE FINAL VERSION THAT MAY COME OUT THIS YEAR BUT DON'T COUNT ON IT.

 

I never saw that so why should I know what the risks are and why do you people seem so satisfied saying oh well I guess I should have known, I guess I'll get what I paid for eventually. I really think it's that kind of attitude that empowers these companies to treat their customers like this. If we held them to what they promised this kind of stuff wouldn’t happen, its complete incompetence on their part and frankly I'm tired of all of the excuses.

[Devin Johnston]

Just wanted to keep you guy's informed, it's been a week since NL's official announcement and as of today there has been no additional info released on Maxwell as was promised by NL at the time they moved back the release date.

 

Official quote from NL:

 

 

"In the meantime, to tide you over until the release, you will be receiving weekly updates on progress, features and information regarding the full release version of Maxwell."

 

Anyone else think it's odd that they would promise all of this and then miss their own date?

[Ernest Burden III]

Anyone else think it's odd that they would promise all of this and then miss their own date?

 

Yes. The ignoring us policy was working very well for them, I don't see a reason to mess with it.

 

But as we know, when they say we will have 'updates' you shouldn't let your imagination get carried away as to what that may mean. Perhaps they just mean they will 'up' the date several more times.

[Devin Johnston]

Ha..Ha..Ha.. thanks for that Ernest I needed a good laugh!

[3dworks]

 

...

Perhaps they just mean they will 'up' the date several more times.

 

very funny!!

 

btw., what i don't understand in all this situation is that not even one screenshot or render showing at least a bit of the new features in maxwell 1.0 has appeared until now (or did i miss something?). for me, it smells rather strange at this point... or is the newsletter on the way already?

 

markus

[Devin Johnston]

No there has been no communication from LN since the e-mail was sent out last Monday. I'm finding it very hard to believe that they could have forgotten something like this.

[_PopArt]

Where there's smoke there's fire i guess...but i do think they'll stick to the nov. 22 release date...ignoring customers/forum members is one thing (and not such a nice thing a that), screwing around with resellers is an entirely different story, and nl should have enough experience in software development to understand that. I'm not informed on the development situation at all, but, just following a gut feeling, I'd guess that some of the images in keytoon's gallery from Sept 2005 were done using a pretty developed version of the software (i'm referring specifically to the two images with the warped camera lens), and if that's any indication of how development is coming along, I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised (sooner or later...)...

[buffos]

I think that the man in charge there (victor) is responisble for that mess.

I remember an argument we had in the forum about what they did mean with standalone.

 

I said there, that standalone, implies that maxwell will be able to handle (import) standard 3d file formats (3ds obj). He said that they never said that, and this was not their intention, and other stuff.

 

But if you look at THEIR REALFLOW website at faq you will see

 

"

What is a “standalone”?

A standalone is software that runs independently from any other product. 3dsmax, Maya, XSI, LightWave, Cinema4D and Houdini are standalone products. RealFlow3 is also a standalone product.

 

How does RealFlow work?

 

a) You make a scene in your 3D package

b) export the scene in a format readable by RealFlow

c) import the scene in RealFlow

d) setup and run the simulation

e) save the result as mesh or particles

f) finally load the result in your 3D package.

"

 

And the question is.

Isnt this a definition they gave themselfs?

When i said, that i expect that from maxwell, they said i am beeing paranoid!!!

 

Then they went on to Redefine BETA. They gave a pre-alpha version in June, naming it BETA.

 

Please tell me popartist.

Leave aside development issues, which are understandble.

Dont you see a repeating patern of lies?

 

Victor is the man to blame. I am 100% sure he is the only man responsible for those misleading tactics.

 

I dont like beeing treated like an idiot. Telling me lies, to trick me.

People that do business that way, have not place in the market

[_PopArt]

So far I've only spoken about the development side. Issues regarding nl's means of communication is a sensitive issue, I think. Lying is a srong word, i think you could replace that with 'being intentionally ambiguous,' and i wouldn't be surprised that they decided to abandon the forum in order not to make any kind of statement that could be used against them. From a marketing/legal side it's unthinkable that an nl representative show up online and say 'ok, sorry, guys, we were so far behind on the beta that we took the last stable alpha and just decided to call it beta in order not to miss another release date.' - it would be suicide, so, as calous as it may seem, they released it and said it was a beta, no further discussion. Another good example is that, if i remember correctly, the initial beta release had some kind of blur problem, which was initially described as some kind of desired effect (again if i remember correctly), then it was patched very quickly, and was described of as a bug. Once again, a pattern of 'ambiguity,' (for lack of a better word).

As far as non-development issues i agree with what many people are saying, and its more than understandable, and maybe there's even a good legal case against them, but i wouldn't be so sure, because, as I've said, they been quite ambiguous about everything. Its not an admirable quality, for sure, but they've clearly decided from a certain point on that that's the way they're going to proceed. For better, or for worse...

[Devin Johnston]

You make some very good points PopArt, ambiguity seems to be one of their primary methods of communication. I hope you’re correct about the November 22nd release it would be a pleasant surprise to wake up that day and see a 1.0 waiting for me. The real rub to all of this is that it would be so easy for NL to let us all know what is going on and what I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing this why say it in the first place. I honestly don't think well hear anything from them until a few days before the release at which time we'll find out if there going to move the data again or keep it.

[Adehus]

Well... a little info has come out:

 

http://www.maxwellrender.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7962

 

Edit- It's good news (speed increases, material improvements), but... is it just me, or is the fact that they waited 8 days to let us in on this just about as irritating as is humanly possible?

[_PopArt]

Yeah. The bit about the speed increase (no speed increase for simple scenes yet 10x for complex scenes ('others')), seems, well, rather ambiguous. It's quite cleverly worded. Keep in mind that the beta was to have significant speed increases over the alpha (it was even stated on the beta white paper), and the opposite turned out to be true. Well, the desired effect (ten thousand raving replies to the post) will no doubt be achieved. The story goes on...

[Adehus]

Yeah. The bit about the speed increase (no speed increase for simple scenes yet 10x for complex scenes ('others')), seems, well, rather ambiguous. It's quite cleverly worded. Keep in mind that the beta was to have significant speed increases over the alpha (it was even stated on the beta white paper), and the opposite turned out to be true. Well, the desired effect (ten thousand raving replies to the post) will no doubt be achieved. The story goes on...

I was thinking exactly the same thing... "beta" (and we use that word lightly) was supposed to be 4x faster than alpha, wasn't it? It's good to have them actually communicating something, but I'm not exactly inclined to take the provided info at face value...