3DSMax and FormZ

[josephus]

We're a very small architectural firm and have so far been using FormZ for modeling and rendering (Lightworks Renderzone). The FZ renderer produces good exterior images, but the interior images are IMO very lacking compared to some other renderers, like 3DSMax (won't bring Maxwell into the picture at this point). Actually we did purchase Maxwell to do still interior renders and believe that will work out great >April 26. However, we are now also doing in-house animations of our houses for our clients, and I'm wondering about switching to 3DSMax, not so much for its animation capabilites since FormZ is coming out with all that we need, but for it superior (fast) interior rendering capabilities. The cost of the software is not particularly a factor, but I really fear the learning curve. We just recently also purchased Archicad, and the learning curve about did us in, mainly because we were already very familiar with ADT and FormZ and though it would be no big deal learning Archicad, wrong. The FormZ tech support is absolutely the best there is, and I am REALLY worried if we switch to MAX what our support options are...having to wait a day or two for an answer does NOT work when we have deadlines to meet. Any thought???

[josephus]

...did not mean to add the unhapy face in the title.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

3dsmax tech support is more or less only avalaible if you pay for it per incident. Even witht he subscription plan, you have to pay for tech support.

 

but more to your problem.... you don't really want or need 3dsmax. what you really want is a sexy render engine that plugs into 3dsmax. i suggest researching when Vray 1.5 standalone is coming out, and if it will work for your solution. I am not sure how it is going to work, or what it is actually going to do, or if it is truely a standalone, or if standalone just means that you don't need 3dsmax to run it.

 

second, unless you truely plan to use Max as a work enviroment, research a cheeper alternative that Vray can work with. Viz and Vray together? Maya and Vray together?

 

I use FormZ, 3dsmax, and Vray together in a non-linear workflow, and it is great. What I mean by non-linear workflow... if I have a completed rendering, and there is a change to be made, I make the change in FormZ, and hit update in Max, and then render. i don't have to retexture my Max file, or relight. i can make a design change at any stage of the process, so they work tightly together as if they were one package.

[BrianKitts]

yeah we still do the majority of our modeling in form_z and render everything in max..... the program is more stable than form_z, better animation controls, and it allows you to use third party plugins like brazil and vray, and honestly, once you get into max you'll never hit ctrl-K again....

 

hmm.. update --> CHG is right... we do kinda use it as a glorified render engine, in which case the main benefit to it would be the animation contols....

[josephus]

Thanks for replying...I think you know what I'm talking about w/Renderzone limitations....ha, ha, ctrl+k...hardly think about it as it's sooo automatic:D ..and have to do it sooooo often.

 

Would you please tell me more about Max support? Do you get it through Discreet/Autodesk? Is any included (like first year) with software purchase? Are annual subscriptions available like FZ "Family Plan", if so what is the cost for a single user?

 

If I'm pretty much up to speed w/FZ and RZ, can you tell me a little about the MAX (rendering) learning curve (We would probably use similar workflow as you FZ>Max render.

[josephus]

CHG...missed your post when I read Brian's. I think with FZ v6.0 in beta right now we'll be ok with FZ for animations, but really need a better render engine than Lightworks/Renderzone.

 

I would just as soon skip the whole intermediary MAX/VIZ step (and save $$$and learing time), and either use a third-party plugin, which is what I would prefer (Maxwell not even to be considered for a animation unless I want to buy 1,000 computers) or export to a stand-alone rendering engine. I'll check out V-Ray as you mentioned.

[Trick]

...and hit update in Max...

Could you please explain this any further. Do you texture/map in FormZ ? Or are you using DWG/XRef's ?

[josephus]

CHG....I called VRay and they said they were not planning a standalone version or a plug-in for FormZ The workflow you briefly relate is incredibly important, as I'm constantly doing test renders during the modeling phase, not just to check the geometry, but to get the lighting right. Takes a lot of render iterations, so your seamless workflow is absolutely essential and I don't think a separate standalone render program is going to be efficient time wise. The Maxwell plug-in for FormZ will take care of my stills, eventhough I'm finding out that even with four Athlon X2 machines running coop, I may still be looking at 50 hours render time I've not heard anything better so far than your FZ>MAX>VRay setup, it seems to be the best way to go for generating interior images for an animation. The key is getting "sexy render engine" as a FZ plug-in, but it seems most of these companies are focussing on MAX almost exclusively.

[mbr]

I'd be interested in learning about your work flow to. I have always just saved out as a dwg (from FormZ), then imported into Max. I assume you are just linking the dwg?

 

 

I would also look at Final Render. They just released Service Pack 3, which has some great updates. A new version should be out sometime that is supposed to be standalone also. No idea which programs they'll choose to have it work with. Right now, I think it's Max/Viz, Cinema and Maya.

 

 

Keep in mind that any interior animations will take a TON of time to render, Vray, Final Render, Brazil, or anything using GI. 10 minutes a frame is fast, easily going straight up from there.

 

 

Also, make sure your firm is charging a ton for this service. It's bad enough that the architecture profession let's itself get ripped off by clients all the time. This is a valuable skill and service, and you should really be charging more than you do for architecture to do it (simply because architects charge so little). I am speaking as an architect, by the way, that does mostly professional renderings.

[BrianKitts]

As a work flow, I do most of my furniture modeling and small details in max and model all my main architecure in form_z and save the file out to a dwg (create objects by layer!!!), then use the dwg-link in max to import the file to max. Then in max you apply all your materials by layer in max to the layers that you created in form_Z. That way I can make any changes later in form_z and just save out a new dwg, and use the link to update in max.

 

dwg-link (file link manager) is built right in to max versions 7+, and if you have a subscription plan you can get it for 6 i think....

[jackb602]

Here are a couple of alternatives you might want to consider. I used to rely on FormZ for everything as well. Now I do most of my modeling in FormZ, and everything else in Cinema 4D. Exporting is quite easy via VRML or DXF (VRML includes cameras and lights). One of Cinema's strongest features is its inuitive and highly customizable interface. If you wanted to, you could set it up to run very similarly to FormZ.

 

Cinema's Advanced Render is very powerful and flexible as well, even if it's not quite at the cutting edge. finalRender is now available for Cinema (Windows only at the moment) and appears to be very well integrated. One very important point is support. Maxon is very responsive, and doesn't charge for tech support. They are really a pleasure to deal with.

 

If your office is now using Archicad, you might also want to look into MaxonForm, basically a version of Cinema that integrates tightly with Archicad.

 

Jack

 

(p.s. I would strongly discourage you from relying on Maxwell. The product is nowhere near being production ready, and Next Limit's customer service varies between condescension and outright hostility.)

[Trick]

...Then in max you apply all your materials by layer in max to the layers that you created in form_Z....

 

I tried this workflow for a while, but got a lot of crashes when working on large models. Because you can not collapse stacks after texture mapping, to prevent losing the links, things became very unstable: Max 6, 7 and 8 !!!

[josephus]

I used to rely on FormZ for everything as well. Now I do most of my modeling in FormZ, and everything else in Cinema 4D.

 

Hmmm, interesting option, very affordable also.

 

I've read some other threads re: FZ and noted that others are also eperiencing a lot of crashing in FZ. We're using v5.5 and may get several crashes in a day...really a time waster. Although we like FZ (mostly because we're able to get some decent results with it, other than interior renders), we are starting to use Archicad more for most of our arch modeling...we had to overcome a huge learning curve for Archicad, but now prefer to model in it. I'm wondering if I could "dump" FZ and go straight from Archicad to Cinema4D. Sounds like the AC>C4D file exchange could work well, and with Archicad's 3D Profiler we should be able to get most of the model done in Archicad, and maybe do some final modeling in C4D and render out???

[jackb602]

I have also been thinking about replacing FormZ with something else, in my case Vectorworks. There are some great things about FormZ, but alot of small but very frustrating aspects make me want to find a better solution.

 

I don't have any first hand experience with Archicad or MaxonForm, but you might want to try another C4D forum like the one at cgtalk.com for feedback.

 

I'll also say that if you feel that FormZ gives you "decent" results, then Cinema's render engine should make you very happy.

 

I think Cinema really needs to be used in conjunction with a true CAD app for achitectural work, but there is a whole lot that can be done in Cinema directly. I'm trying to move toward doing more and more in Cinema myself.

 

Jack