Cad or 3D?

[Rick Eloy]

Well, guys, I was having a discussion with other fellas about the best way to create a model. Is it modeling in a CAD software (AutoCAD, ArchiCAD, etc) better than doing it entirely on your 3D app (Max, Lightwave, Maya, whatever)? I think this could be helpful to the beginners...So, what do u think?

[]

Rick

[Paul Griger]

Interesting topic.

 

For me I use ArchiCAD and C4D.

 

The two items I’m [and most others I’d imagine] concerned about are accuracy and low poly counts.

 

Right now I’m more proficient at AC than I am at C4D, so it is beneficial for me to do as much as possible in AC. And AC does match C4D poly for poly in the main structure type items, walls, floors, roofs, etc..

But the other items, furniture, lamps, and other accessories that are modeled in AC and brought into C4D have a very high poly count compared to these items being modeled directly in C4D. So I am trying to learn to do the modeling in C4D for these items.

 

C4D seems pretty easy to do this; I just have to learn how to “think” in C4D as efficiently as I can in AC. Two things that have helped greatly are doing the exercises in the tutorial books from C4D and customizing my shortcut keys in C4D.

[STRAT]

the age old argument.

 

there is no better software, 2d cad or 3d app. it depends on you entirely.

 

i model almost completely in acad, but nisus for example models nearly all in max. archicad is superb also. whatever ur poison.

 

and for a noob? i wouldn't recommend these days either. all software has advantages/dissadvantages over the next, but all can do the same thing at the end of the day.

 

personally i prefer acad, and thats because i'm so familier and fast with it, and i personally think CAD is more accurate than a 3d app, but if a newb wants to persue max or rhino, then great, he wont be loosing out becuase he isn't using acad.

 

[ November 04, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: STRAT ]

[Rick Eloy]

Hey, Strat!

I guess I didn't make myself clear. The point is not the preferences, but the technical issues. As Paul said, poly count, accuracy, easy of changes, everything regarding the TECHNICAL aspect of modeling, not only the fact that you're familiar (or not) to the software. I'm not talking about AutoCAD being better or worse than 3D max, for instance. I'm talking about ways of doing the same job. It's not like saying that this soft is better than the other, got it?

 

[ November 04, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Rick Eloy ]

[KiboOst]

Personnally I prefer doing all the stuff in the same soft. Like this, no conversion problem, you can put your materials/mapping while modeling, test first render then adpat your geometry whith the render quality needed, etc etc. You can always go back to the first step, which isn't really possible with several softwares.

At least, yeah there isn't better software then another one. But maybe somes are just easier

 

Kib

[STRAT]

gottcha

 

well, in a way my answer still applies.

 

CAD is better for hyper accurate modelling and it is specifically designed for this, but 2d/3d apps all do much the same these days it's not clear cut like it used to be.

 

i model in acad because of the infinate accuracy. max for instance, doesn't share this luxury. you cant infinately zoom into your scene in say max, c4d, lw etc like you can in a cad package.

 

but then most 3d apps will alow you better organic modelling than cad.

 

it's a toss up. swings and roundabouts. as i said, i use acad, but i also incorporate some max modelling in this.

[kid]

If I want more control over texturing, poly count, animation of parts of the building, and stuff like that I'll do most of the modelling in Max. If it's just a stock model of a house or something, which isn't going to be complicated in the animation/rendering stages I'll do most of the modelling in Rhino.

 

I usually end up doing the more organic stuff in Max and the simple rectilinear stuff in Rhino, with some importing/exporting backwards and forwards during a single project. I like Max for quick mass studies because it's so much easier to push and squish the geometry.

 

And then there's the situation when you're employed in house and have to use their choice of software...hmmm Autocad...

[STRAT]

Originally posted by kid:

And then there's the situation when you're employed in house and have to use their choice of software...hmmm Autocad...

actually kid i can ultimately pick or choose. we use acad and archicad, viz and c4d. if i want rhino for instance, then they'll buy me rhino.

 

as i say in my original answer - what you like and what you feel better with. the better you feel the better the software is.

 

[ November 04, 2002, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: STRAT ]

[ingo]

Personally i see no reason to work in a CAD software, i like FormZ for all my modelling and never had a reason to use a CAD program. I dont need the big 2D overhead of Microstation/Autocad, so a 3D software is in my eyes the better solution.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

ingo

[plastic]

i use archicad and 3dsmax.

for 'wild' stuff i directly model with 3dsmax. for convetional architecture, with mainly orthogonal vertical walls, doors, windows i start with archicad and go to 3dsmax at some stage. i do all texturing, lighting and rendering with 3dsmax. and additional freeforms, like terrain.

making everything with max would be no problem, technically, but it would take me about 6x as long to finish a project...

i have to work fast to stay in business.

 

another advantage is that i often (better said, always) get 2d data in archicad or autocad format, which i can quickly convert into 3d data with archicad.

(ever tried to import a fully featured 2d plan into max? )

[Rick Eloy]

Originally posted by Marc Lorenz:

making everything with max would be no problem, technically, but it would take me about 6x as long to finish a project...

another advantage is that i often (better said, always) get 2d data in archicad or autocad format, which i can quickly convert into 3d data with archicad.

(ever tried to import a fully featured 2d plan into max? )

Well, Marc, that's really the point here. We are talking about conversion problems and, why not, the kind of file we get from our clients. Here, we get 99% of the files in DWG format, with plans and elevations. In 3D Max, we take those elevations and turn them into 3D entities, which makes a wall or even a whole facade in a snap.

The major problem I see in converting 3D formats (such as PLN, DXF or even DWG sometimes) is that you don't have total control of the faces and other entities as well, which makes you return to the first app in order to make some changes.

So, I have a question: when you export a 3DS file from within ArchiCAD, the resulting file has lots of tri-faces, right? How do you manage to work with them in case you have to make a minor modification? How about mapping and stuff?

This is the main question here: do you have problems working with 2 different packages? What kind of problems and why? would it be better to do everything in only one soft?

[]

Rick

[kid]

Strat wrote:

actually kid i can ultimately pick or choose. we use acad and archicad, viz and c4d. if i want rhino for instance, then they'll buy me rhino.

You're very lucky then. Every place I've worked have only had Autocad and VIZ R2 or Accurender. I can model pretty much whatever I need in Autocad, being comfortable with both ACIS solids and meshs/surfaces but I just don't like using the program.

 

Have you had a play with Rhino yet?

[STRAT]

kid, no not yet, just physically haven't had the time to d/l the demo.

 

ppl tell me it's the mutt's nuts for speedy NURBS modelling, but i got a m8 who uses it and says it's nothing special for non-NURBS or normal architectural modelling.

 

i will d/l the demo when i can to judge for myself, im certainly not closed minded about 3d software, but i certainly am super fast in acad and it does exactly what i want in super speed.

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Strat,

 

you mentioned (more than 1x) that you are super fast at cad, cool.

 

being somewhat reverse-dyslexic (myself) and having 2x owners who used to argue over EVERYTHING and could NOT agree upon how to spell the word "NO" how many syllables are in the word "NO" what language was the original Origin of the word "NO" (as if it really mattered) AND who gave consistent CONTRADICTORY INFORMATION daily i eventually decided to use a right-handed Mouse left-handed (without re-configuring it) so that i could (to This day 13 years Later) keep a clipboard at my workstation to write down ALL of the Contradictory Information

 

was That the AM cad standards? or is This the PM cad Standards?

 

or what was it you said Last Week ??

 

being a somewhat slow Learner, 6 years later, while using the right-handed mouse left-handed (this allows me to use ANY Mouse instantaneously without re-configuring it) and while somewhat day-dreaming when my Mind wandered out the window one fine day while at work, i realized that i could use autolisp to define "numeric aliases"

 

like,

 

(defun c:00 () (command ".save" "") (princ))

 

AND NOW, i have about 300 or 400 of these littel numeric keypad short cuts memorized

 

AND THIS IS FAST, way FAST but kind of hard on the hands when you do This all day

if interested i can post the Entire Lisp routines sometimes if you want to look at it

 

dont know why but i can instantly memorize numercial aliases (but cant balance a check book)

 

just an Idea, but This works really slick

 

Thanks

 

Randy

 

other examples: and yes there is Madness to my Methods

 

******************************************(defun c:/ () (c:ai_molc) (princ))

(defun c:// () (c:laycur) (princ))

(defun c:/// () (progn (load "mat-mtc") (c:mtc)) (princ))

(defun c:/0 () (command ".layer" "on" "0" "s" "0" "") (princ))

(defun c:/+ () (c:laylck) (princ))

(defun c:/+* () (command ".layer" "lock" "*" "") (princ))

(defun c:/+- () (command ".layer" "lock" "*" "unlock" (getvar "clayer") "") (princ))

(defun c:/- () (c:layulk) (princ))

(defun c:/-* () (command ".layer" "unlock" "*" "") (princ))

(defun c:0/+ () (command ".layer" "lock" "0" "") (princ))

(defun c:0/- () (command ".layer" "unlock" "0" "") (princ))

(defun c:/0+ () (command ".layer" "lock" "0-*" "") (princ))

(defun c:/0- () (command ".layer" "unlock" "0-*" "") (princ))

(defun c:/+0 () (command ".layer" "lock" "~0-*" "") (princ))

(defun c:/-0 () (command ".layer" "unlock" "~0-*" "") (princ))

(defun c:/* () (c:laymch) (princ))

(defun c:/** () (command "_matchprop") (princ))

 

(defun c:* () (c:layfrz) (princ))

(defun c:*0 () (command ".layer" "f" "0" "") (princ))

(defun c:*0* () (command ".layer" "f" "0*" "") (princ))

(defun c:*0- () (command ".layer" "f" "~0*" "") (princ))

(defun c:*1 () (command ".layer" "f" "1*" "") (princ))

(defun c:*2 () (command ".layer" "f" "2*" "") (princ))

(defun c:*3 () (command ".layer" "f" "3*" "") (princ))

 

(defun c:- () (c:layoff) (princ))

(defun c:-- () (c:layiso) (princ))

(defun c:-* () (command ".layer" "off" "*" "" "") (princ))

(defun c:-0 () (command ".layer" "off" "0" "") (princ))

(defun c:-0* () (command ".layer" "off" "0*" "" "") (princ))

(defun c:-0- () (command ".layer" "off" "~0-*" "" "") (princ))

 

(defun c:0 () (command "orthomode" 0) (princ))

(defun c:1 () (command "orthomode" 1) (princ))

(defun c:2 () (progn (command "cmdecho" 1) (command "dist") (getvar "distance")))

(defun c:3 () (progn (command "cmdecho" 1) (command "dist" "nea" pause "per" pause) (getvar "distance")))

(defun c:4 () (command ".osnap") (princ))

(defun c:5 () (command "'osnap" "") (princ))

(defun c:6 () (command "'osnap" "end,ins,int,mid") (princ))

(defun c:6+ () (command "'osnap" "end,ins,int,mid,per") (princ))

(defun c:7 () (command "'osnap" "nea,per") (princ))

(defun c:7+ () (command "'osnap" "nea,end") (princ))

(defun c:8 () (command "'osnap" "ins,cen") (princ))

(defun c:9 () (command "'osnap" "ins,cen,quad") (princ))

 

(defun c:10 () (command "'pan") (princ))

(defun c:11 () (command ".zoom" "w") (princ))

(defun c:12 () (command ".zoom" ".95x") (princ))

(defun c:13 () (command ".zoom" ".5x") (princ))

(defun c:14 () (command "'zoom" "p") (princ))

(defun c:15 () (command "'zoom" "d") (princ))

(defun c:16 () (command ".zoom" "e") (princ))

(defun c:17 () (command ".zoom" "e" "zoom" ".98x" ".save" "") (princ))

(defun c:18 () (progn (load "vue-vsx") (c:vsx)) (princ))

(defun c:18 () (command "view" "s" pause) (princ))

(defun c:19 () (progn (load "vue-vrx") (c:vrx)) (princ))

(defun c:19 () (command "view" "r" ) (princ))

(defun c:20 () (command ".arc") (princ))

(defun c:21 () (command ".line") (princ))

(defun c:22 () (command ".pline") (princ))

(defun c:22-4 () (command ".pline" pause pause "a" "s" "mid" pause pause "l" pause "endp" "c" ) (princ))

(defun c:23 () (command "rectang") (princ))

(defun c:24 () (command ".polygon") (princ))

(defun c:25 () (command ".insert") (princ))

(defun c:25+ () (command ".insert" "~") (princ))

(defun c:25-0 () (progn (load "blk-blk0") (c:blk0)) (princ))

(defun c:25-1 () (progn (load "blk-blk1") (c:blk1)) (princ))

(defun c:25-4 () (progn (load "blk-blkx") (c:ble)) (princ))

(defun c:25-5 () (progn (load "blk-blkx") (c:blkx)) (princ))

(defun c:26 () (command ".circle") (princ))

(defun c:26-3 () (progn (setq dsmm (getreal "\nEnter Distance in MM for Circle Radius: ")) (command ".circle" pause (/ dsmm 25.4))) (princ))

(defun c:27 () (progn (load "n27") (c:n27)) (princ))

(defun c:28 () (command "block") (princ))

(defun c:28/ () (progn (setq blkn (getint "\nEnter Int for Blk-Name: ")) (setq pt0 (getpoint "\nEnter Blk-Base Pt0: ")) (setq ssbn (ssget))

(command ".block" blkn pt0 ssbn "")(command ".wblock" blkn "=" ) (command ".oops")) (princ))

(defun c:28+ () (command "wblock") (princ))

(defun c:29 () (command ".bhatch") (princ))

(defun c:30 () (command ".copy") (princ))

(defun c:30-0 () (command ".copy" (ssget) "" "m") (princ))

(defun c:30-1 () (command ".copy" "L" "") (princ))

(defun c:30-2 () (command ".copy" "P" "") (princ))

(defun c:30-8 () (progn (command ".undo" "m" "") (ssget) (command ".copy" "P" "" "0,0" "0,0") (command ".rotate" "p" "" "0,0" "180")) (princ))

(defun c:31 () (command ".move") (princ))

(defun c:31-1 () (command ".move" "L" "") (princ))

(defun c:31-2 () (command ".move" "P" "") (princ))

(defun c:32 () (command ".erase") (princ))

(defun c:33 () (command ".offset") (princ))

(defun c:33-1 () (command ".offset" "L" "") (princ))

(defun c:33-3 () (progn (setq dsmm (getreal "\nEnter Distance in MM to Offset: ")) (command ".offset" (/ dsmm 25.4))) (princ))

(defun c:33-4 () (progn (setq dsm (* (getdist) 25.4)) (princ dsm)) (princ))

(defun c:34 () (command ".trim") (princ))

(defun c:34-0 () (command ".trim" (ssget) "" "0,0" "12000,0" pause))

(defun c:34-1 () (command ".trim" (ssget) "" "0,0" "0,12000" pause))

(defun c:35 () (command ".extend") (princ))

(defun c:36 () (command ".fillet" "r" "0" "fillet") (princ))

(defun c:37 () (command ".fillet" "r" pause "fillet") (princ))

(defun c:38 () (command ".mirror") (princ))

(defun c:38-0 () (command ".mirror" (ssget) "" "0,0" "12000,0" "N"))

(defun c:38-1 () (command ".mirror" (ssget) "" "0,0" "0,12000" "N"))

(defun c:38-11() (command ".mirror" "L" "" pause pause "N"))

(defun c:38-12() (command ".mirror" "L" "" pause pause "Y"))

(defun c:38-21() (command ".mirror" "P" "" pause pause "N"))

(defun c:38-22() (command ".mirror" "P" "" pause pause "Y"))

(defun c:38-9 () (command ".mirror" pause "" pause pause "Y"))

(defun c:39 () (command ".stretch") (princ))

(defun c:40 () (command ".rotate") (princ))

[STRAT]

hi vizwiz - when i said i was really quick in acad this wasn't a brag but more a pure consiquence of using acad every day for 13 years pluss

 

btw, what was all that reply of yours all about, i didn't understand a word of that or the point your trying to make :/

[Rick Eloy]

Make it 2 of us, Strat. Didn't understand a word either....

 

[]

Rick

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

Like strat already mentioned in this topic: I model everything in max. Why? Simple, I don't like conversions, cad accuracy is not necessary as we don't draw plans, the modeling process is fast and easy (sub-object modeling), good vertix/face-count control, everything made in just one application (modifier stack, material editor, rendering, mapping etc.) and we have the ability to use scripts to speed up our workflow (pre-set bevels, database-driven import, lightdome-generator, etc.)

I used to be a serious autocad modeler - I prefered acad over 3dsdos3-4 and even max1 (for orthogonal design) - but I changed course when sub-object modeling took over the modeling process. It's a matter of taste and good sense to find a good way, but finding YOUR OWN most efficient way is the important of all. (And after that, refine, refine, speed-up! etc.)

 

rgds

 

nisus

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Strat,

 

i know you are not bragging or etc

i was posting some autolisp keystrokes

 

that i use as "aliases" for keyboard shortcut input

 

a mouse is way to slow

 

shouldhavewaited to see if you wantedtosee the lisp stuff

 

wontdoitagain

 

thanks

 

vizwhiz