UAG Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Hello everyone! I just joined today, so I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place, but here goes. The firm that I work for is looking into buying BIM (Building Information Modeling) software. I will give you some background information. Right now our firm has ADT 2005, 06, 07, 08(hasn't been loaded yet)and VisionREZ. I have a few questions: (1) What is the best BIM software to date? (2) What would be the best BIM software to convert from those listed above? We have been looking and comparing the following programs: VectorWorks ARCHITECT, Bentley Architecture, ArchiCAD, and Revit Architecture. I personally like VectorWorks (just by going over capabilities finished renderings). Please feel free to provide any feedback, good or bad about any/all of the software listed above. Thank you very much, Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 We are in the same boat... To BIM or not to bim. if so where to turn... We are a small firm of 5 that tackles big jobs in multiple year stretches with a new 2-3 year project in the office we are looking to re-tool. Almost the exact same current status as you; ADT 2005 and my rendering is done in VIZ (and I've been mixing in sketchup lately for quick communication of ideas) An update to ADT 2008 (if only to make our consultants happy) is probably in order but, we are wondering if it's time to make the quantum leap. I'd be interested in what others say! your not alone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 My firm has been using ArchiCAD for at least 10 years; it's a solid program and is capable of handling anything from houses to 40 story high rises. The major plus of any BIM software is your generating a 3D model from the very beginning, so creating renderings and animations becomes much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbowers Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Our firm of 50 just implemented REVIT 5 months ago. I can say that it's one of the best out there. Albeit, the software forces you to think in a different way but nonetheless it's been a great program so far. The plus side is that it's Autodesk based, the negative side is that it's nothing like ADT or any Autodesk software for that matter. I've heard that Archicad is a great program too as well as Microstation Triforma. I guess it's just picking the tool that will satisfy your needs. The one thing i like about Archicad is it's rendering capabilities. Revit out of the box is pretty terrible at renderings..IMO. We usually export to Max or Sketchup for our finished works. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Entesano Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Like Devin, the 100+ firm I am in uses ArchiCad. We use it for everything ranging from houses, shopping centres, defence projects, busways etc to 75 storey towers of which we have a few on the go at the moment. I produce renders through C4D & vray which it intergrates really well with, at early sketch block model stage right through to final marketing imagery. For example this morning I went into the current documentation file for a 285 metre tower and saved out a file and am doing renders of the foyers and exterior with little tweaking as I have developed a material naming system that even the detail drafters can understand. A powerful program but I guess I am biased. Cant say I've spent much time with the lightworks engine in Archicad but I have seen a few good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianKitts Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I'm going to put in my vote for Archicad as well. Our firm uses it and the biggest thing from a visualization standpoint is that Archicad is open to third party development. We are now supporting rendering with Artlantis, Maxwell, and Vray. The first two engines can actually be used in Archicad, and I'm hoping down the road vray will as well. Which is great so that I don't have to render planning and early models, the designers with a small amount of instruction can create well lit renders that are leaps above the built in light-tracer engine. The scripting language in Archicad seems quite powerful (GBL: geometry based language) although I haven't been able to develop anything myself with it, a coworker is working on some really impressive parametric models that he has generated, for instance a fully parametric curtain wall generator. Tie that in with the fact that you can write custom DWG exporters that will allow you to break apart all the custom objects into layers however you please, it sets you up really well for crossing over into 3dsmax the way that I currently do to render with vray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAG Posted February 11, 2008 Author Share Posted February 11, 2008 Thanks for the suggestions and information. I appreciate the feedback. Please don't stop. Does anyone know anything about VectorWorks Architect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAG Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Does anyone have any more suggestions? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thank you, Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Okay I've been pre-viewing ArchiCAD and Revit over the last few days and there is one nagging question that keeps coming up in my mind... Lets say I want to use some fancy german louver system or a structural glass wall system or curved glass; the list goes on and on... How exactly do I do that with these programs? They still seem so constrained to me (as they always have)... Sure if your throwing together apartments, houses, office buildings, etc. I can see the clear benefits! We create custom 'by design, brain and hand' buildings like this: If almost everything is custom how on earth do we take advantage of these BIM systems? It's my biggest mental hurtle to 'taking the technology to the next level"... Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 There are systems in ArchiCAD that can create things like windows, doors, mullions as a system and can be edited very easily by changing numbers. If you truly have a custom object you would have to build it much like you would in any 3D program. Those things can't be standardized because they are unique, but it's not something that can't be done and in fact is done all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 If your exploring design ideas your spending all your time creating a huge backlog of custom 'family' objects? I guess this is where my 'old school' sketch it, bang it up 3d, look at it, sketch over it, throw it out and start again mentality takes over. At what point does the 'design process' end and 'programs' process' start to take over? In the case of our last two buildings (shown above) I'd bet that 70-80% of the entire BIM would be custom objects. Where is the time/estimating/CD benefit? Maybe I'm just not understanding the core of spending all that time defining, building, specifying, entering data, drawing (plan, elevation, 3d) AND coordinating an amalgamation of custom objects... just to have them all thrown out and start over. Am I wrong by saying that these programs in many ways 'assume' that your design is really 'done' and focus on streamlining/organizing the assembly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAG Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 I know what you are saying Upshot. Our company does a lot of high-end Club Houses that have the same type of structures that your buildings above show. Can't wait to see what is said about that issue. Thanks for the comments and questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 The creation of these custom objects might not be any faster than they would be in a standard 2D program but the benefit of being able to generate plans, sections, and details at will is where this technology really stands out. Once your building is built in ArchiCAD generating a section or elevation of any part of the building is only a few mouse clicks away. You can never get that with 2D applications, and it saves hundreds of hours of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 the benefit of being able to generate plans, sections, and details at will is where this technology really stands out. Once your building is built in ArchiCAD generating a section or elevation of any part of the building is only a few mouse clicks away. after your done with design process... right? Because I can bang up an entire 3d building concept in a day (just using polylines and layers) then toss it over to sketchup and generate renderings, plans and sections 'in a few mouse clicks' without generating a boatload of 'custom objects' that will all be thrown out/changed/completely rearranged. Then I can throw it all out and start over two days later when the client hates it. I'm coming at this from a 'designer under the gun' perspective... I don't have time to be like.. oh, time for yet another a completely custom parametric object. Golly this is going to save all sorts of production time but right now I'm up all night... Make sense? or am I just totally missing something here... I'm still of the opinion that these programs' perspective is mostly from a 'how do we force design to conform to production' viewpoint... but very eager to see it differently (if you know what I mean). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I think you are under the impression that ArchiCAD only uses custom objects to create buildings. That's not what it does, you can create virtually any object from scratch in the same amount of time you could do it in AutoCAD, and the difference is that those objects would be 3D. You’re also adding information about material to those objects which is helpful later down the line if it gets that far. Yes there are custom objects like doors, windows, and window shades but even those can be customized and all it requires is adjusting some spinners. There are 12 designers at my firm that use ArchiCAD every day to create new designs, all of them came from an AutoCAD background and now swear they'd never go back. Our designers can create entire building concepts in the same amount of time as you can, they can create renderings just as quickly and if the project changes or moves forward the people doing the CD's already have a lot of information that is useful from which they can generate most of the CD set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 IThere are 12 designers at my firm that use ArchiCAD every day to create new designs, all of them came from an AutoCAD background and now swear they'd never go back. Could you show me an example? What exactly are we talking about here... Take for example this building again: How long would it take for your designers to generate this model? I'm looking at Revit and Archicad... It seems like to me it would take a heck of a lot of work to generate the roof structure. Am I just having learning curve vertigo?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Thanks for the suggestions and information. I appreciate the feedback. Please don't stop. Does anyone know anything about VectorWorks Architect? I would suggest you join the Vectorworks mailing list for a while and get some feedback there. The link to join can be found on the vectorworks website. I've used Vectorworks extensively but never used the Architect pack, so I can't give you any references. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It would probably take a day or two for one of our guy's to model that, and get it ready for rendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UAG Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 Thanks Hector. I will join the mailing list a.s.a.p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 It would probably take a day or two for one of our guy's to model that, and get it ready for rendering. I don't know if I should say BS or I'm sold.... ;-) (mostly because I know how much detail is in this model but not readily apparent) In broad brush strokes, how would it be done? Would each part of the roof be it's own custom family element? or would the entire thing be it's own custom family? The more I read the more I find out that creating custom families is not a simple task (at least not in Revit). I played with the 'Family Editor' all day yesterday and found it to be extremely powerful but also extremely complex with all sorts of variables, testing, and forethought required. So help me out here please... Show me a similar 1-2 day project done in ArchiCAD. I just want to get a sense of apples to apples. Your talking all this big game but for all I know your organization is doing rectilinear repetitive work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Entesano Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Seriously, that roof would only be about 2 hours tops for me with flashings, gutters and barge rolls using roof accessories addon. There is a vaulted roof tool for the curved roof and you use boolean functions in archicad to cut out shapes that are not so straight forward. walls with windows can be angled at anypoint of the process etc. I grabbed a couple of projects at hand for examples though I couldnt think at the moment of any I have immediate access to, such as a few golf clubs I've done which are similar. Anyway 1. Modeling on this podium took a week but that included working out 6 storeys of carpark ramps too! 2. about an hour 3. 2 days for the complete building, artlantis render by a colleague 4. 2 days for the building with angled glazing/mullions etc. 5. All model, just to show it is a powerful program(there are about another 65 levels about what is shown...) I have been using the program for over 10 years though so add a bit for a new user but I think it is pretty intuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I have been using the program for over 10 years though so add a bit for a new user but I think it is pretty intuitive. This is probably my major hurtle. I've been modeling in good ol Autocad for... (wow. time flies) almost 20 years! So.. to cook in a totally new environment and work approach is daunting. {my fantasy} a quick conversion tool to turn polylines and solids into family elements that are BIM intelligent... after all I'm producing the same damn thing with a tool that I'm comfortable with. If I could just organize it (say by layer) so that the BIM program would understand it{/my fantasy} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gog Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 You should try VectoWorks. It offers all the benefits of a Traditional Cad System plus Real 3d modeling (that you can use to obtain CD's), and Parametric Modeling that simplifies all the process of design and draft. VectorWorks is really doing a good job in the transition to Bim. Check it's page: http://www.nemetschek.net/ and check this galleries: http://www.computerworks.de/Galerie.104.0.html?&L=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Jay it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about BIM, I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that newer technology can speed up the modeling process but it can. This is an image of a model that was created in about 10 hours, I'm referring to the model in the foreground. http://devinjohnston.cgsociety.org/gallery/476877/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Jay it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about BIM, Nothing could be further from the truth. I took a good look at all your renderings and dispite the fact that the rendering techniques are supurb and the mood excellent in all... You must admit that my prediction that the architecture that your particular firm is creating is rectilinear and repetitive is spot on. Like I said right off the bat... "Sure if your throwing together apartments, houses, office buildings, etc. I can see the clear benefits!" Two factors make it tough to make the transition (to repeat myself): A. If the architecture your creating is 75% custom and 25% standard (in your case I'd say it's the opposite; developer driven and 10% custom/90% standard) then MY PERCEPTION is there is a considerable mount of time that has to be spent creating custom families. B. After so many years of ACAD modeling (I started with v9 FFS) having an entirely new modeling technique will always be daunting and feel risky in the high pressure design studio (guilty as charged). I might add that I absolutely LOVE sketchup and adapted to that in no time at all... So I'm not staunch. ;-) Maybe the answer is... BIM is NOT a design tool. It's a production tool and once the design process has stabilized that's when it starts to shine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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