Devin Johnston Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I just got my yearly membership renewal letter and I'm wondering if I should renew for the 3rd year or just let it lapse. To be honest I'm having a hard time forking over the $170 for the membership because I can't come up with a single thing that being a member over the past 3 years has done for me. Besides the news letter they send out and the letters I get to put after my name I don't really know what my money is buying. Perhaps the organization is more geared towards traditional architectural renderers who work in pen and ink or water colors than 3D. I say that because virtually all of the information they publish is based on this kind of work and 3D really isn't discussed. Anyway I'm just wondering what other peoples experiences have been and whether you find being a member of this organization a positive benefit or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Well I like it because of the competition (Architecture in Perspective) that they run every year. Whenever Im short of inspiration I have a look at the past winners. Pen and ink or digital or a combo, it doesnt matter really. We're all artists depicting architecture, space, structures etc. Im biased though, because I was one of the winners this year.... And I have picked up work from their listings before. Someone wanted a local 3d guy and found me through their directory of members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkletzien Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Maxer...certainly it's your decision, but I think if you look around most professional organizations they don't actually do much for the individual members. They exist in order to provide educational opportunities, provide recognition of excellence (or to punish the incompetent in the case of law or medicine, Bar Assoc. / AMA) and advocate for the value of the profession in general. All of which ASAI does in one form or another with varying degrees of success. So, while I understand your POV, ultimately we ALL benefit from a strong professional organization that communicates that our profession is more than pushing buttons/pencils, and the people that ply it are artists. And the organization can only be strong if people join up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 If I'm an architect I join the AIA and I get something from it, mainly a license to practice architecture, same goes for lawyers and doctors. That's not true with us since there is no license, and I don't think it should be because it probably wouldn’t work. However since the ASAI exists and isn't a free organization I think it should provide something more than inspiration, or a competition once a year in which it's members have to pay to enter. I guess I'm alone in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Erstad Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 My experience has been one that is worth the cash. Granted, I am currently under a corp membership, and have not won a thing, nor has it costed me anything. My employer happens to be a very talented watercolorist, who is recognized every time he has entered. later this spring, I will obtain my own membership, and this is why. Exposure - we have attracted clients whom we would have gone another way without our ASAI presence. Advocacy - as Jon mentioned above. Networking - the benefit of the personal and professional relationships you develop via the annual conference has been a great plus for us. Referrals, collaboration and personal relationships. For me personally, I feel strongly enough about this final element that I would continue to do so for this alone. Other than the ASAI, who else is out there collectively representing this industry? I don't live in NY region or the Britain, so those are out. Thanks for bringing this up Maxer, and I for one would be curious to see where this ends up. Cheers, Scott Erstad http://www.andersonillustration.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 If I'm an architect I join the AIA and I get something from it, mainly a license to practice architecture The AIA does not issues licenses to practice architecture, states do. Plenty of licensed architects are not members of the AIA. However since the ASAI exists and isn't a free organization I think it should provide something more than inspiration, or a competition once a year in which it's members have to pay to enter. I guess I'm alone in this. You are not alone in questioning the value of professional organizations. I stopped renewing my ASAI membership ten or fifteen years ago, though I may re-join--any year now. There are things you can get out of it, including inspiration, peer-contact, but also legal representation where it counts. When NY State was about to go after NYSR members on sales tax, we got the jump on the problem and changed the way NY looked at us--not just our members, but all renderers working in New York. ASAI has worked on similar problems. To a large extent, these groups are going to be what you make of them. When I quit ASAI I instead joined the fantastic Graphic Artist's Guild. There are so many good things they do that I can't list them. But I couldn't get involved enough, so I got nothing much from it--my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Since I don't attend their conferences or functions I can't see how I will ever benefit from networking since they have no forum. This may be a great thing for those that live close to where these functions are held but for those of us who don't live locally it's impractical. Ernest I've heard your story about the troubles you had in NY before and for that kind of situation an organization backing you is always a good thing. However I'm talking about day to day stuff and from what I've seen the ASAI simply has nothing tangible to offer. When I first joined I suggested to Tammy that the ASAI should have an online forum where artists could get together and discuss issues, she said it was a good idea and they would look into it but that was 3 years ago and nothing has happened. Your right about the AIA I should have been more specific, but it is an organization you join and it does provide real benefits to its members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I can't see how I will ever benefit from networking since they have no forum...ASAI should have an online forum where artists could get together and discuss issues... We are currently working on a multi-organization forum. It's not quite at the point of making a formal announcement, but it is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Im biased though, because I was one of the winners this year.... Well done. I just tried to look this up but the ASAI site's link to the AIP 22 exhibition links to a broken site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 We are currently working on a multi-organization forum. It's not quite at the point of making a formal announcement, but it is happening. What do you mean "we" who are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 What do you mean "we" who are you talking about? I don't care if you waterboard me, I'm not talking! That would be NYSR, ASAI, CGarchitect.com, so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkletzien Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 To be precise, states also license doctors and lawyers, not their respective professional organizations. As far as the broken link, and the forum, professional organizations are only as strong as the numbers of people that join, and participate. As it stands now if you want stuff done than I think you'll find the leadership is happy to have you take the lead in working on it with minimal oversight, or you can run for the board if you think you can skin the cat better. I also happen to know a forum page was discussed at the prompting of a few members and was tabled for a future update of the website as it was not in the budget at the time - this decision was made in light of the ASAI maintained bulletin board you may remember which was rarely used in 5 years - kind of like the painter forum here . Subsequently I think that Ernest and others have approached CGA about doing a forum here in partnership wth NYSR, which I believe ASAI should participate in as well as it has a farther flung membership that may bring even more ways of seeing/critiquing art - but the decision is not mine. If you want them to hire people to do this stuff you desire their only option is to charge more for membership - which I don't think they are in a position to do. They are definitely hampered by the economics of a small field, and the reluctance of artists to join anything, but I don't think there is anyone there worth getting mad at, they're doing what they can for a shoe string budget. That said, if you're looking for illustration work the find an illustrator function and gallery page is worth the $170/yr all by itself, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 As far as the broken link, and the forum, professional organizations are only as strong as the numbers of people that join, and participate. As it stands now if you want stuff done than I think you'll find the leadership is happy to have you take the lead in working on it with minimal oversight, or you can run for the board if you think you can skin the cat better. I disagree, when I first joined I made several recommendations that were either ignored or thought to be to complex and noting was ever done. At no time did the leadership ask for my help in implementing anything which by the way I would have been happy to provide. They are definitely hampered by the economics of a small field, and the reluctance of artists to join anything, but I don't think there is anyone there worth getting mad at, they're doing what they can for a shoe string budget. That said, if you're looking for illustration work the find an illustrator function and gallery page is worth the $170/yr all by itself, IMHO. I'm not mad I'm simply looking for a reason to keep my membership and so far nothing I've heard is getting me excited. The illustrator function on their web site is ridiculous, for $170 you get one page with no customization functions and very limited space. For $30 on CGTalk I get a massive gallery page that I can put anything on and fill it with as much info as I want. This is not a selling point for ASAI in my opinion, it just points out how behind the times the organization is and how little you get for your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkletzien Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 OK, so you're not mad, just not excited, my fault. I can say we get a handfull of jobs every year from people who've found us on the find an illustrator function, whereas I can't say that for industry sites like CGTalk which are a catchall. Its paid for itself tenfold. But, if you don't think all our common interests are served by a annual show and catalog that posits what we do is art to our potential clients, than what can I say? I choose to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Erstad Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I disagree, when I first joined I made several recommendations that were either ignored or thought to be to complex and noting was ever done. At no time did the leadership ask for my help in implementing anything which by the way I would have been happy to provide. But did you actually make an offer to do something? As with many, no EVERY not for profit organization, it is the membership that drives the progress through action. Anyone can suggest a thing, and everyone often does. To do a thing, to volunteer, to speak out and actually volunteer with a plan in hand, that is how things happen. The seminars do require travel. They all do and they visit many interesting locations. Cost can be supported by employers and many do so. Costs can be supported by attendees, and even more do so out of pocket. The programming is pretty good, but again, the real benefit here is the membership interaction, top notch. It is an experience and my belief is that would you have participated you would have a different opinion. Online forums, as abundant and populated as they are, are a source of reference and feedback. Maybe I don't spend enough time in them though to gain anything other than this. Not trying to stir a bees nest here. Good luck, Scott Erstad http://www.andersonillustration.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 This is what I sent to Tammy in September 2005 two months after I joined. No I never said I wanted to start a members forum, however if the interest had been their on the other end and they had inquired I would have volunteered. "Tammy, As a new member I’m eager to be a part of the ASAI community but because of my location and the requirements of my job I’m not able to attend any of the organized events sponsored by the ASAI. I know there must be other members out there who have the same problems, as well as others who would like to share ideas and experience on a variety of topics. I would like to ask if the ASAI has ever considered setting up a online members forum so that we can all interact on a regular basis and share our knowledge." her response "We are looking at expanding our web site so that it is much more interactive for members. I will pass on the word about the members forum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkletzien Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Devin...I hear you, as did Tammy. I also heard Michael Sechman when he asked about this same thing in 2004 (and volunteered to monitor it). But it isn't as simple as it sounds. First off it isn't cheap to set up, host and monitor, as ASAI found out when they sent out the webdesign RFP during the last overhaul - with this as part of the package. Second, you need fairly regular site traffic which you initially garner through posting news items (think CGA which has been terrifically successful - though I believe even Jeff will attest that it took some time to get the kind of traffic he wanted). To do this you need news that would be constantly churning and of interest to most or all members, and membership that is online all the time - ASAI doesn't have these. Now if you want to run for the board in order to refute their accumulated wisdom, and get this going than great. Consider me your first volunteer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Devin...I hear you, as did Tammy. I also heard Michael Sechman when he asked about this same thing in 2004 (and volunteered to monitor it). But it isn't as simple as it sounds. I'm sure it's very complex, however I think this is one of the main reasons the ASAI doesn’t have a large membership and never will unless changes like this are made. CGA has shown how a forum can be tremendously beneficial to the visualization community and Jeff has found ways to make it profitable despite it being free. All I'm saying is that if the ASAI wants to get bigger it needs to have something drawing people in, and if they are going to ask people to pay a membership then there better be some real benefits to that membership and not to a select few. A forum and a developed gallery site are two good places to start in my opinion, and if they need some help running it I'll volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 It sounds like you have answered your own question to me. If you renew your membership and become more involved through advancing the initiatives you have pointed out as missing, then it will become the benefit you are searching for and you get the bonus of having been the one to spearhead the continued evolution of the industry. I remember when Jeff first spoke about Cgarchitect back in the Lightscape forum. Imagine how things would be if he had not taken it upon himself to create the very tool he was searching for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I'm going to re-up. I've only been a member for the last year and a half, but the dues have been more than covered by the contacts made. A lot of clients like to work with people that they can look in the eye and shake hands with....the traditional way of doing business in Texas...and the search function on the ASAI web site has made this possible. I'm an artist and don't really care about the politics of the organization, don't know who is running for president, or worry about being outnumbered by watercolorists. This association has been working for me so far, and I'll support it as long as it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 A forum and a developed gallery site are two good places to start in my opinion, and if they need some help running it I'll volunteer. Now that you mention it, I need some moderators for the prof. groups forum--would you be able to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Yes I'll do it but only if you buy me a beer at the DMVC this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 14, 2008 Author Share Posted March 14, 2008 It sounds like you have answered your own question to me. If you renew your membership and become more involved through advancing the initiatives you have pointed out as missing, then it will become the benefit you are searching for and you get the bonus of having been the one to spearhead the continued evolution of the industry. I remember when Jeff first spoke about Cgarchitect back in the Lightscape forum. Imagine how things would be if he had not taken it upon himself to create the very tool he was searching for? I don't run the ASAI, I have no power to make them do anything and even though your suggestion sounds good it's already clear that suggestions made aren't taken seriously. It's already been pointed out that people who have volunteered have been ignored and the ASAI took no action. This problem is not coming from the members; it's a problem with the leadership who apparently like things as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkletzien Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Many of those people are friends of mine, and they are folks with practices, families, and still give a great deal of their time and efforts to the organization, and the field. They are doing what they can with a small staff, a modest budget, volunteer help and a membership pool that spans the gamut of media, and world. If you have an agenda, get involved and make it work. Simple as that. But to instead publicly bash good people who are actually volunteering is a pretty shi**y thing to do IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 The truth hurts sometimes; just because these are good people which I don't doubt for a second doesn’t mean that there isn't major room for improvement. If they'd like my help I'd be glad to give it but the last time I checked they weren’t knocking down my door for advice. If everyone else is happy with the way things are that's great, I on the other hand see serious problems with the organization and as far as I can tell they have no interest or intention of addressing them. As for my so called bashing I don't think I've perpetrated any harsh or gratuitous personal attacks on anyone, I'm simply pointing out a failing in the organization to provide any useful product for the amount of money they charge. I don't think that discussing these issues is inappropriate unless you believe that I'm damaging the organization is some way, in which case I'd like to see some proof of that. Let me reiterate I am not and haven’t attacked anyone personally; my comments have been solely focused on the ASAI as an organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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