Asai

[Scott Erstad]

Maxer, your initial post has requested other forum members to share their experience within the ASAI, I will again do so here...

 

I disagree that members requests go ignored. This doesn't seem to mesh with my experience, nor the experience of other ASAI members that I have had numerous private face to face or phone conversations with. Of course, some feel that this or that could be improved, and I agree or disagree with certain aspects of those concepts to varying degrees, however I have never heard any one of those folks express a desire to withdraw for any reason. These conversations have been with all shapes and colors, including old, young, man, women, American, Japanese, Korean, Euro, Aussie, digital or traditional artists, new members through founding members, and so on. Not even a complete list of nationality there.

 

That would be NYSR, ASAI, CGarchitect.com, so far.

Yes I'll do it but only if you buy me a beer at the DMVC this year

 

It seems as though the various requests have in fact been heard, otherwise I strongly doubt anyone from ASAI would be involved or would lend name to the endeavor. I do not know who initiated, or how it came about, or what role the ASAI has played, or why the various groups have chosen to band together, and I don't really need to. Yet there it is, in progress, sure to be a benefit to all.

 

Maxer, your recent post quoted above seems to indicate you are to be an active participant. I would like to extend my personal thanks and congratulate you, as you will now have ample opportunity to create an impact where it seems your most significant needs are. So it seems that the issue of the online forum, albeit through various groups, is being advanced.

 

Volunteerism in action, I love it!

 

The ASAI members gallery mentioned earlier - it could be better, but to be honest, our firm has benefited from it's existence. Clients have contacted our studio to inquire for both digital and traditional works have said they came across us via that venue, we know because we ask that of all our new clientèle. Potential clients have been directed to our firms web presence via the ASAI. We know this via site tracking. We would love to see a flash based member gallery, something really bitch*n, but not a deal breaker for us, not even close. We actually prefer to have folks view our work on our own (bitch*n) site, after all, it is was a significant time and cost investment.

 

Surely there are other elements about the ASAI that do not meet your expectations. If you were to share them, I would consider adding my voice to yours in an effort to incur change.

 

It should be noted that I too would appreciate a more positive and solution-based tone in this dialog. Otherwise, don't bother.

 

Scotty

[Sawyer]

I can't comment on the virtues of the ASAI as an organization but I have been a member of several on line portfolio services, yellow pages, local AIA etc and I have had more contact from my ASAI portfolio than everything combined. In fact I have let my membership slip and I need to re instate it.

 

That said I think that a lot of work could be done to the website/portfolio services. But I do think that there are a lot of people who turn there to find illustrators more than say cgtalk or portfolios.com.

[Ernest Burden III]

It seems as though the various requests have in fact been heard, otherwise I strongly doubt anyone from ASAI would be involved or would lend name to the endeavor.

 

To be honest, there is no involvement yet by the ASAI. They were invited and have not decided what to do about it.

 

I do not know who initiated, or how it came about, or what role the ASAI has played, or why the various groups have chosen to band together, and I don't really need to. Yet there it is, in progress, sure to be a benefit to all.

 

The idea of a joint professional society forum came from Ian Kinman of the NYSR. We approached CGarchitect and Jeff generously offered to help us out in numerous ways. Ian personally approached ASAI about it last year, so far we don't have a response that I know of. So ASAI has played no role. The only thing delaying the project at the moment is me, as I've been trying to pull everything together but haven't yet. I am happy to see the interest the idea is generating. I am sure it will be a benefit to all, and that it will include the membership of ASAI.

[jkletzien]

I also hope they pick up the torch in that, I know Jane and Frank were very excited about the idea.

 

Maxer, ya called out the leadership dude, those are actual people who are actually volunteering their time on the organizations behalf.

 

You walk a mile in their shoes, then if you still feel that way, I'll sympathize. Right now it's all just a little too casting stones for my tastes....

 

PS. scotty let me give ya a kiss!

[Ernest Burden III]

I also hope they pick up the torch in that, I know Jane and Frank were very excited about the idea.

 

I haven't spoken about the forum idea with Jane, but I did discuss it with Frank, at length. But he pointed out he isn't in a position to make a decision on it and so it sits. Jon--if you know who at ASAI would need to be making the call on this initiative, would you give them a shout for me? They can always call or email me or Ian Kinman and we can advance the project.

 

this is probably the wrong thread to be discussing this, anyway, so I apologize for the tangent.

[Jeff Mottle]

Thought I would post a few of my own thoughts here.

 

...but I think if you look around most professional organizations they don't actually do much for the individual members. They exist in order to provide educational opportunities, provide recognition....

I agree, but does it have to be that way? I think that business model works well in some regards, but today, especially with online communities, people are bound to ask for hard returns on their investment. It was a different story when gatherings held by such organizations were the only way to unite a community, but with the myriad of online collaboration and communication technologies out there, I think industry organizations in general need to be more proactive in creating both behind the scenes value to an industry as well hard benefits for the individual members. Don't get me wrong the ASAI does and had provided a lot of things for the community, but I think it can and needs to be taken a step further.

 

When I first joined I suggested to Tammy that the ASAI should have an online forum where artists could get together and discuss issues, she said it was a good idea and they would look into it but that was 3 years ago and nothing has happened. .

 

Part of the problem and benefits of larger more formal organizations are the layers of complexity and red tape to do something. I own CGA and I answer only to myself, so if I want to launch a forum, I just do it, and it's easier for me to do because I have the technical expertise and resources to do it. However when an organization like ASAI wants to implement a forum, someone without a lot of technical web knowledge has to research companies that can do it for them, bring the results to a board and then slot that expense and time into their budget. It's a pain in the ass. I used to volunteer with a local search and rescue association and left shortly after we debated the merits of a $30 plastic toolbox purchase. The ASAI is not unique by any means. I'm not defending how slow things move at ASAI, but at the same time, I've been saying CGA2 is on it's way for I think 4 years now. I also work a full time job at VisMasters, but work on CGA at nights. All in all I have been working 12-16 hours a day (weekdays) and 4-8 hours on weekends for 6 years. And still no CGA2. Why could I not do it sooner? Time and Money. If I could afford to throw money at it, it would already be done. Have I asked for volunteers, no, but I should. I doubt ASAI ignores any of it's members suggestions, but I would be shocked if budgets, time and lack of resources to implement have not seen many requests fall to the wayside. Especially with a changing of the guard from year to year. Most people are not willing or not able to work the kind of hours I do.

 

...professional organizations are only as strong as the numbers of people that join, and participate. As it stands now if you want stuff done than I think you'll find the leadership is happy to have you take the lead in working on it with minimal oversight, or you can run for the board if you think you can skin the cat better.

 

I agree, but it's certainly a catch 22. People want more value, but to add more value you need more people to help. It will definitely take a lot more committed people to think of an idea, become a member knowing their money is an investment, and throw their own time in to make it happen.

 

Last I heard the ASAI had a membership of 300-500 people, which is great, but when you consider that CGA gets around 90,000-100,000 unique vists month and by my estimation only accounts for at most 20% of the industry, there is huge part of the industry that is not joining and they should be.

 

I did a survey last year to try to feel this out and some interesting results came up. You can view those results here:

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=8JHdky9Vy6Q4QPNC0EC24Q6xSbt0_2ffEDDYrggrTS8IU_3d

 

I disagree, when I first joined I made several recommendations that were either ignored or thought to be to complex and noting was ever done. At no time did the leadership ask for my help in implementing anything which by the way I would have been happy to provide.

 

If they didn't then they should have. It's rare for any organization to find people willing to help. Even in my own efforts with CGA, I can tell you 1 in a 1000 is willing to help or contribute. If you decide to become a member again this year, and I think you should, I would keep at them on ideas you have. If you leave the ball in their court then it gets tied up in red tape, like any big company or organization. If you come to them with a plan of action and how you can help pull it off, then they just have to say yes (more or less). The more responsibility you leave to a committee the more time it will take to come to fruition.

 

I think for an industry organization to become more nimble it should have a board of people made of up thinkers and doers. Then they solicit the membership on what they want and then they implement it. But it will take more hands on people who can get all the technical stuff implemented. Easy to say, hard to do. Might be easier with a larger member base to pool from though.

 

In the end, can organizations in our industry do better, absolutely. Can they grow without new members and volunteers, definitely not. If this entire forum volunteered for 1 year and agreed to put in 40 hours of work in over the course of that year into the organization, I bet the ASAI would be a completely different animal and would be able to offer a much better return for industry. Will it take some blind faith from a lot of people, you bet. Are you up for the challenge?

 

Although I'm not sure where I'll find the time, if I can get 50 people post to this thread agreeing to my challenge (40 hours over a year) and renew or become a member, I'll help rally the troops and speak with the ASAI about how we make this work. My wife is going to kill me.

[jkletzien]

I would call Ric Heldt @ A&E architects...he's the president and while he's pretty swamped with conference preparation stuff (he's also a partner in the firm, with 2 young daughters, but I digress ) if you gave him a call I am sure he could shepard it through the board ASAP (pun intended).

 

His info is on the ASAI contact page...and he is a super nice guy. I also gave him the heads up last week that this needs to be decided on, so he should be ready for a short debrief.

 

http://www.asai.org/ContactDetails

 

And, no I don't think this is a hiijacked thread...devin has spurred this all into action.

[Devin Johnston]

Well said Jeff, I'll be the first to volunteer my 40 hours to you and because I believe this will make the ASAI better I'll renew my membership.

[Sawyer]

Ok I am in.

[ikinman]

Yes, I am in as well, although I am already a member of ASAI and have been for ten years.

 

I’m playing a bit of catch up at work (and with putting together the NYSR portfolio) so I haven’t yet posted to this thread, though I should have earlier. To cover the original point, my firm’s membership in ASAI, and NYSR (of which I am president) has been one of the more profitable decisions I ever made. In the ten years of Animation + Images, not one year has gone by where I have not received at least one job each from referrals from ASAI or NYSR. At $170 per year for ASAI and $150 per year for NYSR, that is the best marketing I can buy. That alone should be enough, but there are better reasons to be a member.

 

These professional organizations were started before the advent of digital visualization, in those dim times in the past when people scratched on paper with brushes and pens. But they were started for the same reasons they are needed today in this time of vast and frequent change to our profession – for this to be a true profession, and not just a way for a handful of disorganized mutts to be psyched that they can get paid for doing cool things on a computer, we need to take ourselves seriously and, more importantly, we need others to take us seriously as well. The ONLY way that happens is collectively.

 

Now we are a young profession, so we are saddled with a young professional organization, full of growing pains, disorganization and confusion. I doubt that the AIA or other groups were any different when they started. NYSR is luckier, in that our group has a more confined geographic focus, we are smaller, and we have a more executive administration – meaning that if the officers think something should be done, it’s done. NYSR doesn’t formally poll membership for an idea. The sponsored message boards here are an example, and Ernest and I will be pursuing them with more vigor as soon as the portfolio is more completed. When Ernest and I discussed the idea, we didn’t go out and get the membership’s approval first (which would be like herding cats), we just did it.

 

But NYSR has a limited reach, and is aimed at promoting visualization in the New York City market (whether or not you live here). The big issues facing our profession are national and international. NYSR is not the organization to tackle those issues – ASAI is.

 

However, despite being around for 25 years, ASAI is still a young organization, and has suffered from the problem that as much as they may change, our profession has changed even faster. ASAI is organized the way a small group of 20-30 people with shared interests should be organized – few funds, volunteer labor, and a democratic organization that solicits the opinions of everyone before proceeding with anything. But now ASAI has 450 members, and our industry’s needs from a professional organization are swamping it. Yet it is still a decentralized organization – officers have only a one year tenure, limiting the ability for any long term enacting of anything. Major decisions have to be taken collectively – changing the name of the organization took two years of polls and membership surveys. The entire organization is one completely sclerotic mess (as I told Frank Constantino, the founder, when I last saw him three weeks ago.) ASAI is currently revamping their website, but the only way that it is actually happening is by a volunteer ignoring the rules and plowing ahead with the project, approvals be damned.

 

The members of ASAI are certainly aware of this, and the organization thrives due to the enormous dedication and volunteering of members, such as Frank, who is tirelessly focusing on the issues of copyright infringement for our entire profession; we are ALL going to benefit from his entirely volunteered work regardless of whether or not we are members of ASAI, and he deserves our respect and thanks for that. (He is planning on being at DMVC, so you can, and should, all thank him in person.)

 

ASAI needs to change how it’s governed, to give it a more effective way of actually getting things done. The approach Jeff has generously offered is the only way it’s going to happen – a group of people, dedicated to volunteer time (and don’t take that expense lightly) to improve how the place works and focus on the issues that are of prime concern to our profession, beyond just marketing. Contracts, copyright and royalties. Employment and education of the future members of our profession. Outsourcing. The roles of visualization artists inside an architectural firm versus on their own. Starting up a visualization business. Taxes and insurance. The future of non-digital visualization artists. These and countless other issues matter more than how many job referrals one can get from the ASAI website.

 

I hope to work with Jeff, Ernest and anyone who wants to help, to get the NYSR and ASAI message boards up and running, to use them as a way to help organize everyone to make this all happen. I applaud Jeff’s challenge (and I hope his wife doesn’t kill him, as mine has threatened to do with my NYSR work), and encourage everyone to participate. Pick a topic of importance to you, and spend some time over the next year to create some forward momentum on it. Your profession will thank you.

 

-Ian

[jkletzien]

I'm not sure I am 100% down with a king for ASAI to be honest especially after watching HBO's John Adams this last weekend. While the present governance is problematic it actually is problematic for reasons that are not immediately apparent - the president is responsible for too much on the conference, and the catalog, so strategic issues become difficult to concentrate on, and resources are constantly being channeled into content at "your" conference and not necessarily being invested in the longer term (You tend to presume "your" conference will generate so much money, that you should spend there to make it back tenfold mea culpa) .

 

If she/he could be freed from that burden than you would in fact have a president that had much the same executive powers you describe, could ponder a proposal/idea and if the budget permitted could call for a vote and get it done. And just as an observation, if NYSR ever has a total hot head, or a self interested jerk ( I mean even worse than Ian ) for President you'll be wishing for a sluggish board.

 

So point in fact it really isn't the structure of the board, it's how the responsibilities are distributed. It amounts to the same thing you've observed I know, but for the record thought I'd air the dirty laundry...

 

That said I agree that ASAI and professional organizations can and should do more. But I think lost in all this is the fact that the ASAI does a lot more than it did even 7 years ago never mind 25. Most of those intiatives are aimed squarely at sole practicioner artists practicing in the US, so Sawyer, Jim Anderson's shop (scotty), DB, and Tommy L., all can really benefit (marketing, health insurance, collections) while people practicing within architecture firms (Devin- yes?), or outside the US (Jeff) are not really helped out by this stuff -save the exhibition positing what we do is art, not pushing buttons. And it also helps explain why sharing technique isn't such a impulse, and when so much of the visualization industry is in-house w/ architects that the membership numbers are only at the 500 mark.

 

And while you may harbor some mixed feelings, Devin, it honestly wasn't that folks haven't listened to you or the handful of other people that have mentioned it off hand, but if you only have 15k of non-earmarked income/year than you don't want to put a sizable chunk of it into something that never worked previously (ASAI maintained a virtually unused bulletin board in its member area from 1998-2003).

 

So, like I said, it has changed, perhaps not in the direction some folks would like it to go, or as quickly but certainly in the direction that the people who did work as volunteers wanted it to go, and at their pace. That after all is the beauty of a small organization that runs on volunteer labor - if you can do it, it helps the organization, and can pitch it to the board competently than you can change its direction. It isn't like government, or the tide, you can actually do something about it, and it is great to see that you, Devin, are.

 

ASAI definitely needs to help out the brothers working on the inside* and raise your stature with the boss so you can get a little love in your paycheck. Peace!

 

*of the architecture office

 

PS. I'm also in but I'd like credit for the time spent this year already.

[Devin Johnston]

Most of those intiatives are aimed squarely at sole practicioner artists practicing in the US, so Sawyer, Jim Anderson's shop (scotty), DB, and Tommy L., all can really benefit (marketing, health insurance, collections) while people practicing within architecture firms (Devin- yes?), or outside the US (Jeff) are not really helped out by this stuff -

Correct, this is exactly what I've been talking about!

 

And while you may harbor some mixed feelings, Devin, it honestly wasn't that folks haven't listened to you or the handful of other people that have mentioned it off hand, but if you only have 15k of non-earmarked income/year than you don't want to put a sizable chunk of it into something that never worked previously (ASAI maintained a virtually unused bulletin board in its member area from 1998-2003).

Believe me I understand the reality of a small budget, there are always going to be priority items that get the love and the rest is just a wishful thought.

[sv@tangram3ds.com]

I find this thread very interesting. It will be a challenge, Jeff and your wife wont’ kill you she will probably leave you.

I don’t’ want that to happen and therefore I will help as much as I can. I will have Tangram 3DS rejoin the ASAI. I agree with a lot of the things written in this thread. I did find the membership very useful at the beginning of my career and because there was no cgarchtiect.com, back 15 years. The ASAI was the community for me to get inspired and to look up for examples of great architectural illustrations and drawings. But I always felt I did not get enough out of my membership and that it is not really the place I needed later on. Once you started cgarchitect.com, Jeff this was the place for me as a 3d architectural visualizer, I find everything I need on cg architect, so the membership with the ASAI just became a little dusty and not very exciting anymore.

Now, it looks like it could get more exciting for us 3d architectural visualizers. We are not the button pushers anymore and the tech guys as we were called years ago. We got more recognized among the great artists and illustrators at the ASAI over the years.

 

I see the ASAI still as a great inspiring place for all of us but I agree, the ASAI needs a “fresh eye” and updates. I am willing to put in my part to make this happen. Let me know what you want me to do, Jeff. I will fill out the membership for Tangram 3DS tomorrow…..but only so many horus that my wife doesn’t leave me…. Also don’t’ let me write anything in English, German would be ok, I guess.

[Jeff Mottle]

Thanks guys! I have a meeting scheduled with the board members of the ASAI on Friday. So far we have:

 

Jeff Mottle

Devin Johnston (Maxer)

Sawyer Fischer (Sawyer)

Ian Kinman (ikinman)

Stefan Vittori

jon kletzien (jkletzien)

 

6 down 44 more to do. I'll be making a big push for this over the next bit and updating the thread every time we add a few more people.

[Ernest Burden III]

Thanks guys! I have a meeting scheduled with the board members of the ASAI on Friday. So far we have:

 

I also have connected with one of the rendering groups in another country, so it's coming together, the new board, that is.

[Sawyer]

Jeff wait till you have kids. Then you will really know how much your wife wants to kill you. Yes it gets worse.

[John Dollus]

Count me in as well. Where do I sign up? Oh, yeah, guess this is the place. I've checked my pocket and have exactly 40 hrs left. I've been saving them for a rainy day.

[Devin Johnston]

Jeff wait till you have kids. Then you will really know how much your wife wants to kill you. Yes it gets worse.

Amen to that brother I've got two kids under 3 and a wife that already says I work too much . On a positive note I'm really excited about what's going on in this thread, it started off a bit rough but I think we've really mad a positive move that without the help of everyone involved probably would have never happened.

[Chad Warner]

I'm in. Now I just have to plead with my wife not to kill me.

 

 

 

-Chad

[Jeff Mottle]

Updated list:

 

 

Jeff Mottle

Devin Johnston (Maxer)

Sawyer Fischer (Sawyer)

Ian Kinman (ikinman)

Stefan Vittori

jon kletzien (jkletzien)

John Dollus

Chad Warner

[Tommy L]

Im in.

[gfa2]

Count me in.

[aaron-cds]

Count me in too.

[Jeff Mottle]

Awesome! At this rate we'll hit 50 people in no time. Keep the names coming!

 

Here's the latest:

 

 

Jeff Mottle

Devin Johnston (Maxer)

Sawyer Fischer (Sawyer)

Ian Kinman (ikinman)

Stefan Vittori

jon kletzien (jkletzien)

John Dollus

Chad Warner

Tom Livings

Gary Allison

Aaron Coon

[Scott Erstad]

Wow. Took a day off to spend with my daughter and BANG! I'm in as well.

Scotty