Asai

[Brian Cassil]

Oh and in case it wasn't obvious in my other post, please count me in as a volunteer.

[Scott Baumberger]

Hello, I don't check the forums as often as I should, but I'm really glad to see this discussion here. First off, please count me in for anything - I would love to help in any way that I can.

 

 

The ASAI does need some help, and I've certainly got my issues as well. I've been meaning to send them a rant directly, but I suppose this is as good a forum as any, and will hopefully involve more people in a needed discussion.

 

1. There needs to be more transparency in the finances and operations. There are currently about 450 members and if they are each paying $170, that should amount to an annual revenue of approximately $75,000. I've been a member for ten years now, and I don't really have any idea how this is being spent. Because the ASAI is a non-profit organization, I have a right to know. We could all benefit from a short end-of-year summary of the group's finances.

IMO, the AIP competition and the annual convention should be paying for themselves. If they are not, this should really be re-examined. In a given year, how many non-ASAI members visit the AIP exhibitions or attend the convention? Additionally, I think the ASAI should do what Jeff has done with the DMVC and piggy-back it to another, larger convention - maybe even the AIA. I would certainly be more inclined to participate. Going out and having the conference in Yellowstone strikes me as very unresponsive to the membership and needlessly extravagant.

 

2. The AIP itself needs an serious overhaul. The results of the competition and therefore the catalogues are simply not an accurate representation of the industry anymore. A juried competition by nature introduces a certain amount of randomness, but the results do seem to be getting more arbitrary each year. (I feel like I can say this now because I did win an award this year - I can also say with certainty that I am not alone here)

A big part of the problem IMO is the overwhelming amount of self-commissioned renderings that are being selected by the juries. In AIP 22, 5 of the top 7 award-winners were self-commissioned. This is a big turn-off for me, as well as for many existing and prospective members. There is a lot of great work out there - I see a lot at CGArchitect - and it's just not making it into the catalogues.

There has been some debate within the ASAI about whether or not a topographical rendering "counts" as an architectural illustration, but I don't know of any similar discussion about self-commissioned work. Without belaboring the point, I feel that architectural illustration is distinct from other art forms in that the work is conditioned by a (paying) client and an external audience. For me, most of the self-commissioned work in the catalogues would be more accurately classified as fine art and is fundamentally not architectural illustration.

IMO, the Hugh Ferriss, the formal & informal, and the jury awards should be going to client-commissioned architectural illustrations. There could (and probably should) be a new category / prize for self-commissioned architectural art and perhaps one for topographical work as well. I call on every AIP entrant to honestly self-evaluate and self-classify their renderings for sake of the competion and the organization as a whole.

 

3. The ASAI should be devoting its time & effort into the issues that matter most to its members. I know that Frank has been working on copyrighting with other organizations, but I think if you asked most ASAI members what their top-ten list of issues would be, copyrights would probably be 6 or 7. My biggest problem, and the item I spend more time on than any other by far, is making sure that my clients are paying on time. I can't imagine I'm alone on this one! Having a good contract is one thing, but it's very difficult to enforce on a case-by-case basis. I also run into clients who are unwilling to enter into an agreement at all - one recent high-profile client flatly said to me, "that's something we just don't do." IMO, this problem is industry-wide and the ASAI should use its clout to educate architects, developers, etc. on the importance of paying on time and respecting the rights of the illustrator, just as commercial artists and photographers have done.

I can imagine the ASAI working with the AIA to create a standard form that everyone knows to use when commissioning an architectural illustration. Having it come from the AIA would add a great deal of validity to the contract that we as individuals can never hope to achieve on our own.

 

IMO, these are the kinds of things the ASAI must be doing in order to remain relevant. I think Devin is right to question the value of membership. It's not enough to offer a gallery page on an increasingly clunky website and/or a designated entry image in an increasingly irrelevant catalogue - we've got to do more, and there is still a lot of work to be done.

 

Nick - I don't know that the "American" part of the ASAI necessarily has to mean the USA. While we definitely need to work with the AIA on some items, there's no reason why we can't do the same with the RAIC. I actually think most of the benefits of being an ASAI member are location-independent. (AIP 18 was in Australia?) CGArchitect knows no boundaries, why should the ASAI limit itself?

 

Thanks for letting me rant, and I'm looking forward to a new, improved ASAI!

[Brian Cassil]

Some very well thought out comments there Scott.

[Devin Johnston]

Scott, I agree with everything you said especially point #3 we need representation like this, I've never dealt with a copyright issue and probably never will, getting paid is much more important to me. I agree that having the ASAI join up with larger groups is a great way to increase exposure and membership for the organization, I really hope this happens. Jeff I would love to see the ASAI represented at the DMVC this year, any chance of that?

[Jeff Mottle]

Jeff I would love to see the ASAI represented at the DMVC this year, any chance of that?

 

We've let them know about the conference and pitched them a package, but they have not replied to me yet.

[Chad Warner]

I'm a little disappointed that there hasn't been 50 people volunteering yet. You'd think with the 1000's of members here, 50 would be an easy number to get to. I'm trying to look at this initiative as helping our entire profession, not just those who are members of the ASAI.

[Devin Johnston]

I'm surprised as well, it was even mentioned in the news letter a few weeks ago and not much happened. It may be that this thread is to long and people don't want to read through it in order to find out what’s going on. Would a sticky with a summery of what we're trying to accomplish be better?

[jackb602]

I've been meaning to join the ASAI for a while, and this thread has convinced me to finally do it. My application will be in the mail tomorrow, and I'm happy to be part of the group Jeff is putting together.

 

Jack

[Jeff Mottle]

Here's the latest. Keep them coming.

 

 

1. Jeff Mottle

2. Devin Johnston (Maxer)

3. Sawyer Fischer (Sawyer)

4. Ian Kinman (ikinman)

5. Stefan Vittori

6. jon kletzien (jkletzien)

7. John Dollus

8. Chad Warner

9. Tom Livings

10. Gary Allison

11. Aaron Coon

12. Scott Erstad

13. Travis Schmiesing

14. Nils Norgren

15. Brian Cassil

16. Scott Baumberger

17. Jack Bransfield

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[Jeff Mottle]

I'm surprised as well, it was even mentioned in the news letter a few weeks ago and not much happened. It may be that this thread is to long and people don't want to read through it in order to find out what’s going on. Would a sticky with a summery of what we're trying to accomplish be better?

 

I've just stepped things up a bit. The forums inline ad is now a directly link to a seperate sticky post with the names we have collected so far and a link back to this thread. Hopefully we will see some more volunteers soon.

[Ernest Burden III]

Hopefully we will see some more volunteers soon.

 

What are people volunteering for? I think I missed that part.

[Jeff Mottle]

What are people volunteering for? I think I missed that part.

 

To help the ASAI with new initiatives that will grow the organization and expand it's current benefits to accomodate the evolving needs of the industry.

[Horhe]

I would like to join in aswell, if its possible. Exciting stuff. Count me in.

[Chad Warner]

We are volunteering in response to Jeff rallying the troops:

 

Thought I would post a few of my own thoughts here.

 

 

I agree, but does it have to be that way? I think that business model works well in some regards, but today, especially with online communities, people are bound to ask for hard returns on their investment. It was a different story when gatherings held by such organizations were the only way to unite a community, but with the myriad of online collaboration and communication technologies out there, I think industry organizations in general need to be more proactive in creating both behind the scenes value to an industry as well hard benefits for the individual members. Don't get me wrong the ASAI does and had provided a lot of things for the community, but I think it can and needs to be taken a step further.

 

 

 

Part of the problem and benefits of larger more formal organizations are the layers of complexity and red tape to do something. I own CGA and I answer only to myself, so if I want to launch a forum, I just do it, and it's easier for me to do because I have the technical expertise and resources to do it. However when an organization like ASAI wants to implement a forum, someone without a lot of technical web knowledge has to research companies that can do it for them, bring the results to a board and then slot that expense and time into their budget. It's a pain in the ass. I used to volunteer with a local search and rescue association and left shortly after we debated the merits of a $30 plastic toolbox purchase. The ASAI is not unique by any means. I'm not defending how slow things move at ASAI, but at the same time, I've been saying CGA2 is on it's way for I think 4 years now. I also work a full time job at VisMasters, but work on CGA at nights. All in all I have been working 12-16 hours a day (weekdays) and 4-8 hours on weekends for 6 years. And still no CGA2. Why could I not do it sooner? Time and Money. If I could afford to throw money at it, it would already be done. Have I asked for volunteers, no, but I should. I doubt ASAI ignores any of it's members suggestions, but I would be shocked if budgets, time and lack of resources to implement have not seen many requests fall to the wayside. Especially with a changing of the guard from year to year. Most people are not willing or not able to work the kind of hours I do.

 

 

 

I agree, but it's certainly a catch 22. People want more value, but to add more value you need more people to help. It will definitely take a lot more committed people to think of an idea, become a member knowing their money is an investment, and throw their own time in to make it happen.

 

Last I heard the ASAI had a membership of 300-500 people, which is great, but when you consider that CGA gets around 90,000-100,000 unique vists month and by my estimation only accounts for at most 20% of the industry, there is huge part of the industry that is not joining and they should be.

 

I did a survey last year to try to feel this out and some interesting results came up. You can view those results here:

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=8JHdky9Vy6Q4QPNC0EC24Q6xSbt0_2ffEDDYrggrTS8IU_3d

 

 

 

If they didn't then they should have. It's rare for any organization to find people willing to help. Even in my own efforts with CGA, I can tell you 1 in a 1000 is willing to help or contribute. If you decide to become a member again this year, and I think you should, I would keep at them on ideas you have. If you leave the ball in their court then it gets tied up in red tape, like any big company or organization. If you come to them with a plan of action and how you can help pull it off, then they just have to say yes (more or less). The more responsibility you leave to a committee the more time it will take to come to fruition.

 

I think for an industry organization to become more nimble it should have a board of people made of up thinkers and doers. Then they solicit the membership on what they want and then they implement it. But it will take more hands on people who can get all the technical stuff implemented. Easy to say, hard to do. Might be easier with a larger member base to pool from though.

 

In the end, can organizations in our industry do better, absolutely. Can they grow without new members and volunteers, definitely not. If this entire forum volunteered for 1 year and agreed to put in 40 hours of work in over the course of that year into the organization, I bet the ASAI would be a completely different animal and would be able to offer a much better return for industry. Will it take some blind faith from a lot of people, you bet. Are you up for the challenge?

 

Although I'm not sure where I'll find the time, if I can get 50 people post to this thread agreeing to my challenge (40 hours over a year) and renew or become a member, I'll help rally the troops and speak with the ASAI about how we make this work. My wife is going to kill me.

[Ernest Burden III]

We are volunteering in response to Jeff rallying the troops:

 

Ah, got it. Thanks. I'll help, too. I guess I should re-join ASAI as a first step.

[tanni]

yea, I want to be a Volunteers and do something with you for our community.

[Arnold Sher]

I'll join... Count me in...

[Vince Paske]

I'll join the cause, though I would like to know in greater detail what it entails. Perhaps more information about what we are volunteering for, with a list of precise tasks would help with the number of volunteer's. People generally want to know what they are signing up for in specific terms prior to committing time (I do).

[blowback]

I'll help, join....what ever we are calling it.

[Jeff Mottle]

I'll join the cause, though I would like to know in greater detail what it entails. Perhaps more information about what we are volunteering for, with a list of precise tasks would help with the number of volunteer's. People generally want to know what they are signing up for in specific terms prior to committing time (I do).

 

The ASAI board is putting together their top 5 list of what they want help with, but they also want to ensure they are leveraging the talents, skills and interests of those volunteering. So if there is something that you think would make the organization better and you think you have the skill to help make that happen, by all means post your suggestions here for consideration.

[kippu]

i guess if its the only one from cgarch industry then i should join ...wonder why they call it american society of illustrators and then ask for worldwide membership though

[blowback]

...wonder why they call it American society of illustrators and then ask for worldwide membership though

 

I thought the same thing when this thread first appeared. " I can't join....I'm Canadian...EH."

 

Maybe that's something we need to look at. " don't let the acronym fool you, we are for everybody!";)

[Scott Erstad]

i guess if its the only one from cgarch industry then i should join ...wonder why they call it american society of illustrators and then ask for worldwide membership though

 

Everyone is welcome I would think.

 

The endeavor began nearly 25 yrs ago with 3-4 guys in Boston, who felt that they were being regularly abused by clients. The idea at the time that they were working alone in the dark, being treated the same fashion, and that a industry front would help alleviate that. I have heard some pretty ugly stories about those days, and those stories were very common apparently. We should all be grateful for those earliest members efforts.

 

Maybe the ASAI should have a page on the site that describes more of it's history - to illuminate those that are not aware.

http://www.asai.org/AboutASAI

 

 

I don't think the idea of the organization survive this long, much less grow to represent people on a number of continents was even in the realm of discussion. Not to mention the people in the "flyover states" in the mid west, like me.

 

Scott

[Ernest Burden III]

Everyone is welcome I would think.

 

Absolutely!

 

The endeavor began nearly 25 yrs ago with 3-4 guys in Boston, who felt that they were being regularly abused by clients...We should all be grateful for those earliest members efforts.

 

Actually, the history goes back a bit further. before ASAI, there was a similar group in New York called the Association of Architectural Delineators. It was formed in the early 1970's by my father, along with a small group of his renderer friends. Among them was my first boss and mentor, Brian Burr, and Steve Oles, who later moved to Boston and was the spark for ASAP (now ASAI). The AAD met semi-regularly to promote the use of contracts, encourage the practice of getting retainers, and especially to address sales tax on renderings. So my father started work on that, it took his son to complete it with the NYSR. That's pretty cool. I'm proud of that.

 

Perhaps there were earlier associations than the NYSR, ASAI and the one my father started, but I've not heard of any. That puts us at 35 years at least.

[Scott Erstad]

Were they fairly treated in the day? and that is pretty cool. It is good to do a little bit for the whole.

 

Gotta feel good about that, and btw we have copies of "Architectural Delineation" and "Design Presentation" in the library. Interesting to see how it was done back in the day.