Tim Nelson Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 This is a question targeted at Jeff, but I'm sure there are others with the answer too. In his chapter on color management, when he is talking about the printer profile drop down menu, he says "Be sure to select the profile for the paper type you are using." I understand the idea behind that, but aren't there paper profiles for each type of printer you are using? For example, so far the only profiles I've found are for the Epson 2200, and in the drop down menu says "SP2200 Prem.Glossy 2880.icc". I have an R220, and it is way off when I select that profile, probably because of different inks, etc. So I'm guessing what I need is Epson R220 paper profiles, but I can't find them anywhere. Could anybody give me any guidance here? I would prefer to do this the right way instead of goofing around with any Epson printer color settings. I haven't done this since I was using an Epson 1280, but I do remember having specific printer/paper icc profiles for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted December 1, 2009 Administrators Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hey Tim, I just popped up to my hotel room at AU for a few min and saw your message. Profiles describe the characteristics of the paper, ink, and printer. I think I mentioned that somewhere in that chapter. So when I say select the profile for your paper type, I am assuming your using the same ink and printer. In that context you would select paper type as you don't normally change the ink type and the printer's behavior does not change. If you are using a different printer, than you need a profile that describes the ink and paper characteristics for that new printer. Profiles can not be used between printers even if the ink and paper are the same. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 What paper are you using? If it's Epson paper, to get the print right you don't need to do anything particularly complicated, just set Photoshop to Printer Manages Colors and set the printer to the paper type. (There are those who will scoff at me for doing it the easy way and say things about soft proofing.) There are some functions you can't do this way but it certainly works. If you are using 3rd party papers, you'll need to turn off color management in the printer driver and set up Photoshop with the right profile. You have your monitor calibrated, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Thanks for the responses. Jeff, I hear what your saying, I just haven't been able to find the proper profiles for my Epson stylus photo R220. It might be too low end of a printer for them to have even bothered. Andy, I think your way is giving me the closest color reproduction so far. I'm probably overdue to calibrate my monitor, so I'll have to do that. But what proof setup, or profile are you using with your digital photos? Mine uses Nikon sRGB, so you probably just leave it at that, right? Anyways, thanks. I think I'll leave the color handling up to my printer for now, unless I end up finding some specific paper profiles for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Actually, trying on another photo, the color still seems really off. Looks like I gotta fine tune it a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 I came across this service that looks pretty tempting. It sounds like she is really good. $35 would be a small price to pay for accurate color if Epson does not offer any decent profiles for this printer. I can only get so far with adjusting printer properties. The blues/cyans are currently a problem for me. http://www.cathysprofiles.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Are you using a Mac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Are you using a Mac? No. PC with CS3, Epson R220 with Epson paper and ink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 No. PC with CS3, Epson R220 with Epson paper and ink. Epson usually provides color profiles. Check their website, probably under support. There will be a way to select your printer and then look for whatever they offer. Using a good profile is very important. Even just on my own, in the past I've been able to get so close that I could scan a watercolor rendering (because clients always change their mind after I handed it in), revise it in Photoshop and print a new one on watercolor-like paper and have it so close that I could lay a test strip over the original and not be able to see where the seem was. Accurate color can be done. If you find a profile from Epson for your printer/ink/paper combination, you should be pretty close. You have to follow proper steps in printing from PS. If your color is still off, you can get a custom profile done. Or, there is a 'poor-man's' way. It involves printing a test with CMYK, RGB and White/50% gray/black patches, scanning that WITHOUT any profile and sampling in Photoshop to determine the deviations. Those numbers (usually very small) are used in a 'selective color' adjustment layer to tweak the output. The tweak can be saved and re-used. A professionally done custom profile is better, but my method will work. I ended up doing it to solve a color cast in neutrals I had even with a profile done by my high-end ink maker from a target print I mailed in to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Epson usually provides color profiles. Check their website, probably under support. There will be a way to select your printer and then look for whatever they offer. There is one profile that apparently installs along with the printer driver, which is just a generic, and is absolutely horrible. See attached for a screen shot of it. Do a google search for 'epson icc profiles' and you will see that they do not go out of their way to help their consumers out. The only result that comes close is an announcement with some icc profiles for the 2200. And the only other profiles I found on their site were for the professional line of printers for seemingly exotic media types. http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Pro/ICCProfilesAll.do?BV_UseBVCookie=yes I double checked and made sure I had all relevant drivers and software for my printer, and yup, they don't offer anything I don't already have except for an updated driver which I installed. Its really ticking me off that Epson doesn't do this automatically with every printer that they make. I would be thrilled if I was just not looking in the right spot, but I don't think thats the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Are you really sure you need to go the "Photoshop Manages Colors" route when using the Epson paper? This is an extra complication and gives you the opportunity to do things like double-profile (when Photoshop applies a profile, and the driver applies a profile, and the effects add up to make an undesired result). I'm envisioning you printing from Photoshop with that R220 profile turned on, which is adding a color cast, then the driver is correctly printing the image that has an incorrect color cast. What you have is a consumer grade printer - it wasn't meant to be used like a pro photographer uses a printer. Epson's color profiles are built into the driver and are handled internally by it when you use Printer Manages Colors. The system isn't as good as, say, a carefully managed workflow on a 2880, but it's meant to be easy to use for people at home. BTW there's a new (November 09) version of the driver package, do you have it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Are you really sure you need to go the "Photoshop Manages Colors" route when using the Epson paper? This is an extra complication and gives you the opportunity to do things like double-profile (when Photoshop applies a profile, and the driver applies a profile, and the effects add up to make an undesired result). I'm envisioning you printing from Photoshop with that R220 profile turned on, which is adding a color cast, then the driver is correctly printing the image that has an incorrect color cast. What you have is a consumer grade printer - it wasn't meant to be used like a pro photographer uses a printer. Epson's color profiles are built into the driver and are handled internally by it when you use Printer Manages Colors. The system isn't as good as, say, a carefully managed workflow on a 2880, but it's meant to be easy to use for people at home. BTW there's a new (November 09) version of the driver package, do you have it? Yep, I installed the latest driver last night. So what I'm doing now is letting the printer control color, and I'm using the custom color sliders, but its still not that great. It looks better on the matte inkjet paper than it does with the glossy, but I'm more interested in the glossy looking good. I mean, it looks fine when printed, if you were not to compare it to the image on screen. But when you compare them, you can tell where the differences in color are occurring. When I tried using the Epson R220 profile in photoshop, I disabled color management in the printer settings, so it should not have been getting a double profile. It just looked bad. I'm sure this printer is capable of producing good & accurate color, so, rather than spend more money on a higher end printer I might send out some samples and have it profiled by a pro-profiler. :-) Now I know why I've been putting this off for so long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted December 2, 2009 Administrators Share Posted December 2, 2009 If there is no profile, and I think Epson only makes profiles for their pro series printers, you can buy a calibration/profiling tool like a ColorMunki, print a test chart and build a profile for your paper. Or if you are not going to be doing it often or do not have that many papers to profile have a 3rd party do it for you. It usually costs around $100 per profile. Just make sure the person who created the profile for you knows what they are doing. As for sending the image to the printer with "printer manages color", the printer assumes your image is in sRGB color space and it ignores any working space or profile you've assigned to your image. It "can" work sometimes, but does not generally offer that accurate of a color. When it comes to color management there is only one right way to do it. I would just do it right the first time and then not have to worry about your workflow working across multiple images etc.. In fact, if you want I can call you when I get back and walk you through printing a printer profiling color chart (which I can send you) and you can mail it to me and I'll create the profile for you. I have a $1300 spectrophotometer that I use to create my own profiles. I've compared my profiles to the Epson profiles and they were almost identical. There is an image showing how close they were in the chapter I write. The most accurate way is a service though as they use even more expensive tools for better accuracy. Please no more color management hacks. It's like watching your child have their arms ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks for the offer Jeff. I may take you up on it when you get back. I'm convinced that this is what I need. No more "ok, lets try +2 more cyan, -3 contrast, +4 saturation"...I hate that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted December 2, 2009 Administrators Share Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks for the offer Jeff. I may take you up on it when you get back. I'm convinced that this is what I need. No more "ok, lets try +2 more cyan, -3 contrast, +4 saturation"...I hate that game. Send me an email to jmottle@cgarchitect.com with your phone number and time to call and I will give you a shout on Monday or Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Tim, Didnt you say you havent calibrated your monitor? All this work is redundant unless you do that first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted December 2, 2009 Administrators Share Posted December 2, 2009 Tim, Didnt you say you havent calibrated your monitor? All this work is redundant unless you do that first. Correct. Photoshop needs a display profile in order to perfom display compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Tim, Didnt you say you havent calibrated your monitor? All this work is redundant unless you do that first. It has been calibrated with my Spyder 3. Its just been overdue for a re-calibration, though I don't think its that far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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