Advice on Vectorworks 2008 maybe Sketchup w/ Cinema 4D 11.5

[vanessap]

Hi there,

 

Firstly thank you for all the information I have read so far, I have spent some time searching on here about the above topic.

 

I am a second year Architecture student with the intentions of practicing in Vancouver in the future, I use Vectorworks for my 2D drafting (I'm a huge admirer of Atelier Bow-wow's work) and use a intel duo macbook pro w/ snow leopard. Until this point I have managed to use hand drawing and layering to show context in my work but would like to add 3D modelling to my vocabulary. I understand that the industry standard is Autocad and I wondered if anybody here uses the above? What they think of the finish? If you might recommend an alternative and if you might know of any good tutorial sites.

 

Thank you so much for your time and help,

 

Vanessa.

[leoA4D]

Hi Vanessa, I am an architect and use VW2008 most everyday and have used VW for a very long time. Like you, I work off a MacBook Pro with Tiger primarily and Windows XP (via VMware Fusion). For 3D, I model with VW2008 (hidden line), Cinema 4D (polygon) and Moi3D (nurbs) and render with Vray (VrayForC4D) and a little with Maxwell Render and Fry Render.

 

The above is by far not an ideal set up but it does work. What is lacking is the time and, uh, the artist in me. Both are due, in part, to my also being a partner in a small architectural firm.

 

Regarding AutoCad. It is the defacto 2D CAD app. in North America and is usually combined with 3ds max or Maya for 3D.

 

More importantly than all the above if you want to practice architecture, i.e., large projects in a large firm, is you should make friends with the inevitable - BIM. You probably know about BIM; if not see buildingSmartAlliance for a start: http://buildingsmartalliance.org/. The defacto app is Revit (also Autodesk).

 

Going back to your original point, the MacBook Pro is a good machine but for 3D work, not enough horses. For rendering larger projects, you might/probably will need to send you files out to a render farm.

 

Good luck.

 

Leonard

[vanessap]

Hi Leonard,

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Wow thats quite a hefty list, have you by any chance tried AutoCad, if so, may I ask what has deterred you from using it? Funny while I was reading your reply I saw and advertisement on here for lynda dot com I think I may sign up for a month for some tutorials. I also wondered what you think of the finish with the above software in comparison to Autocad/3ds Max?

 

Sorry, no I have not heard of BIM - I will definitely dig a little deeper and I also didn't know that one could send files to a render farm. I wondered what you might recommend in regards to hardware that can handle rendering?

 

Thank you,

 

Vanessa

[leoA4D]

Hi.

 

Yes, I did use AutoCad and own an old version of Arch'l Desktop and 3D Studio Viz. Two turnoffs: 1) originally it was targeted to engineers and 2) unnecessarily complicated as a communication tool. That's the nutshell story; the rest takes too long to tell. VectorWorks, FKA MiniCad, was like pulling out a sheet of paper, grabbing a pencil and starting to work.

 

"...the finish with the above software in comparison to Autocad/3ds Max?" Excellent. 3ds Max is commonly imported into Vray, Maxwell and Fry. BTW, Vray is a "biased" app and Maxwell and Fry are "unbiased". I will let you check the sites for an intro. Peek into their galleries, too. It is a good idea to download demo versions of these apps and try them out.

 

BIM is changing architectural practice more than computers have. If you are headed into 3D, you are likely to encounter BIM app (Revit, Archicad, VW, etc.) files to be used as a bases for renderings. Some peeps have experience in this regard, I do not. BTW, do a search of the VW TechBoard/forum for discussions on VW and BIM.

 

Macs have become acceptable to Windows/PC fanboys. Some use it strictly for Windows and other plunge into Mac. The Mac Pro 8-core with lots of memory (buy from less expensive sources, not Apple) is for serious 3D. Large projects on both Macs and PCs may require a render farm. I understand that Apple is coming out in April +/- with new hardware. You have an adequate machine to produce good renderings with so, no need to be concerned yet.

[vanessap]

Hi Leonard,

 

Thank you for your response, I have to ask how did you digest all of the above software?? Its a little overwhelming! It really sounds like you have to decide quite early on if you want to follow the crowd or venture out on your own, create something unique but possibly stubble along the way.

 

After a little thinking, I've decided to stick with VW for 2D for the moment, venture into Sketchup (so I can get the 3D shapes out of my head) and concentrate on mastering Photoshop over the next month or so. I'd like to then progress onto working the shapes in VW and Cinema 4D. For some reason the curved shapes seem daunting in VW, I had a few one-on-one VW tutorials years back and my brains was having none of the 3D stuff at the time - how do you feel about curves in VW?

 

You mentioned being based in North America, I hope you don't mind me whereabouts and what you think about practicing there? Not sure if you have visited the UK?

 

Thanks,

 

Vanessa

[leoA4D]

Hi Vanessa, you are welcome.

 

3D requires working with more than one app - "tool" is more appropriate. And much time. Depending on the project and desired product, one can use 4 or more apps. As your skills evolve, there are other apps that you may want to have to accomplish certain tasks. Open your mind to app + app + app = work around. Your learning Photoshop is spot on. Also, you may want to learn Illustrator.

 

Looking down the road, in an architectural office 3D group, get comfortable being the band and conductor. If you go for 3D studio/atelier life then you may be limited to modeling, lighting or materials.

 

Staying with VW is a good plan. I like C4D for many reasons, however, it lacks quite a few tools architects expect. So, I find it easier to model in VW and export to C4D using the exchange plug in (VW & C4D share the same parent company, Nemetschek). Likewise with Moi3D. Lots of peeps use Sketchup with Maxwell and Fry with some v. good results.

 

Personally, I have learned not only by doing and reading the app manuals but from the forums and tutorials. You mentioned lynda dot com. There others. Look for what your app offers. C4D has cineversity which many extol its virtues but has a registration fee plus annual fee. It has some free tutorials you should look into. Also, go to the 3D Software section here at CGArchitect, C4D Cafe, CG Society for C4D forums.

 

Regarding curves in VW, nada with 2D or 3D. At times, I have to clean up VW objects in C4D because booling in VW creates geometry issues. C4D, as a polygon modeler, is good for working/shaping - sculpting, if you will - geometry. VW is limited. Sketchup I do not know.

 

I am in New York and have been to the UK several times. I am married to a Brit and have two teen half Brits. The economy here is struggling like most other places. You mentioned Vancouver. I have never been there but found Canadians to be tremendously warm, friendly and helpful. Sometimes a bit over the top with the nationalism though. My bet is you would like it.

 

Leonard

[erickdt]

I used Vectorworks for several years for 3D modeling. I begrudgingly switched over to AutoCAD a few years ago mostly due to the fact that the majority of offices here in the US use AutoCAD. The last version of Vectorworks I used was VW 11 which I found very capable of doing 3D modeling as well as presentation with multiple viewports and rendering styles . There was a rendering engine built in that wasn't nearly as advanced as VRay, Mental Ray, etc. but if photo-realism is not necessarily your goal than that shouldn't be too much of an issue. As I recall there were also nice hidden line and "artistic" rendering styles available too. It's my understanding that the newer versions of VW have a more advanced renderer but I've never actually used it.

 

So I'd stick with VW and learn the 3D modeling tools...

 

E

[vanessap]

Hi Leonard and E (thank you for the reply),

 

 

Yes - I think I'm seeing that one has to be seriously active and ready to spend free moments learning new techniques. The Uni I'm at really pushes hand drawings and aesthetics but I transferred in from a place that was big on technical detail and CAD. I think a lot of the tutors think that one looses the ability to just experiment and play with an idea if it is experimented with on the computer to quickly, personally I think it comes down to how familiar you are with your media. So I truly have my work cut out for me to tweak my hand drawing skills and experiment with the above plus all the rest heh but thats Architecture I think.

 

Interesting about the VW comments, I just need to bite the bullet and not get to hung about the lingo I don't understand lol as some of what you have described above reads like another language at the moment.

 

You mentioned Illustrator, this may sound like a completely ignorant question but I've never really got to grips with In Design/Illustrator so I don't really know what they are used for? I've heard they are brilliant for layout but I find Photoshop really good for that.

 

New York, wow.... I could not imagine practising as an Architect in NY... honestly, I'm not sure how Architects do it. In regards to the balancing of life and the responsibility of numerous projects heh buts thats a whole different discussion.

 

You're right E, presently its not necessarily about creating images that look 'real' but more about communicating my vision and the atmosphere I wish to create.

 

- On a COMPLETELY different note I wondered if you might mind if I asked a few questions about your to journey in becoming an Architect? Mainly I am considering doing my Masters out there or Canada, I understand that one had to get an internship which lasts for about 3 years afterwards? Firstly from being in the industry I imagine you might know how on earth people afford the fees and secondly if internships are very difficult to get?

 

Thank you so much for your time and help,

 

Vanessa

Edited January 24, 2010 by vanessap

[Frosty]

On a COMPLETELY different note I wondered if you might mind if I asked a few questions about your to journey in becoming an Architect? Mainly I am considering doing my Masters out there or Canada, I understand that one had to get an internship which lasts for about 3 years afterwards? Firstly from being in the industry I imagine you might know how on earth people afford the fees and secondly if internships are very difficult to get?

 

Hi Vanessa,

These are good questions and as I have recent/current experience, I thought I could help. I have a B.ED from U Manitoba (98) and an M. Arch from U Manitoba (04). I have completed my internship hours and I am not completing my NCARB exams. To relate to your past questions, I draft in AutoCad, model in FormZ and render in Cinema 4D - as I have for over 10 years. I have lived and worked in the US for the last 5 years but have returned to Canada permanently this past July.

 

First, in order to practice in Canada/US the education requirements and internship requirements are the same and there is a reciprocity agreement between the two countries - meaning if you are licensed in one, you can be licensed in the other. With that said, there is a caveat. Canada now has TWO exam systems. The ExACs (4 exams) and NCARBS (7 exams). Only the NCARBs are recognized in the US. The ExAC isn't even recognized in all provinces. Typically students complete an undergrad plus a 2-4 yr graduate degree followed by the required 5600 hours of specific logged experience. There are still a few 5 yr bachelor programs available, but most schools have switched to a 4+2yr system. It will typically take significantly longer than 5600 hour to complete your log books.

 

Second, I think there are only 10 schools offering architecture in Canada - Ryerson might now as well and that would make 11. This link takes you to each school. This link takes you to each provincial association

 

Third, attending school in Canada/US and working in Canada/US will be two radically different things unless you already have some sort of work visa/citizenship. Working in the US will be VERY hard. Your British connection may or may not help in coming to Canada. I have little information here to help you, but you should take this issue seriously. Its not impossible, but its hard.

 

Fourth, the economy! In most of the US its bad. Real bad. I made it out without being affected, but it is still the reason I left the US. This may be resolved and on the upswing by the time you are finished school, but for now I really doubt you could gain employment there. Canada has also been affected, but much less so. Parts of the country are actually growing.

 

Good luck with your decision, and feel free to ask specific questions. I've had personal experience/friends/profs involved with pretty much every school in Canada as well as most of the higher profile firms in Vancouver.

[leoA4D]

Hi Vanessa,

 

You are right about spending free time to learn new techniques and apps. I spend about an hour early every morning, M - F, and more on weekends checking the forums or watching tutorials. These are learning sessions.

 

About hand drawings. That is a skill that continues to be quite useful and respected. A pencil is referred to as a "talking stick" and if with it one can deftly sketch upside down while sitting across a table from their client or their rep, communications take on an appreciated extra function in meetings - entertainment.

 

Yep, the lingo will come. You will find apps and forums will use different terms for practically the same thing or the same term to mean totally different things.

 

Illustrator is indeed for graphics. It is also useful for taking 2D floor plans, elevations into 3D modeling apps such as C4D and Moi3D. Importing pdfs into VW2008 leaves a lot to be desired. Instead, take a pdf into Illustrator first and save it as an eps and import that into VW. The result is crisp line work at scale.

 

I have worked in smaller cities and NY is in many ways similar to them. And, I have worked in a couple of star firms here on huge projects scattered around and prefer smaller projects. We have done lots of little projects here and about.

 

Frosty has addressed the U.S. license process quite thoroughly. If you are interested in a sample, the following link is NY State's requirements, which I believe is similar to the rest of the states: http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/arch/archlic.htm

 

The economy here is not good but not as bad as 12-18 months ago. This article paints a mixed outlook for 2010 and a better 2011: http://www.archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=4140

 

Take care.

 

Leonard

[vanessap]

Hi Frosty and Leonard,

 

Thank you for your reply - its amazing as to how many different routes one can take to become an Architect. I was wondering how you found it studying in Canada and practicing in the US? Also if you felt like that worked in your favour? And what was you experience in attaining the required log time (internship)?

 

On another note we had a IT tutorials this week which was based on 3D Vectorworks and encouraging us to get/install Cinema 4D for our next tutorial, great news! I'm not feeling quite so anxious about experimenting also we talked a fair amount about eps files so I'm excited to see how this will pan out in my next project.

 

Thank you so much for your advice,

 

Vanessa

[leoA4D]

Vanessa, I hope it helped. Best of luck. Leonard

[Frosty]

I was wondering how you found it studying in Canada and practicing in the US? Also if you felt like that worked in your favour? And what was you experience in attaining the required log time (internship)?

 

The transition to the US for me was quite easy. My first move was 2 hrs south of Winnipeg where my wife was studying for her PhD. The NAFTA agreement allows professionals to temporarily cross the border to work with a special classification called TN. When crossing into the US you prove your Canadian citizenship, your qualifications (have your M.Arch in hand) and have an offer of employment on company letterhead. After that you pay $65 and get your visa for 3 yrs. It typically took me about 20 mins and since we lived close to the border, it was very easy. However, your entry into the US is completely at the discretion of the customs official you speak to.

 

The down side to TN status is that you are a temporary worker. If you lose your job, you have to leave the country basically immediately. Although you pay for social security, you can never receive any benefits on unemployment.

 

I did have difficulties logging my hours, but it was my fault. My advice is to register with a provincial/state licensing board WHILE YOU ARE IN SCHOOL - preferably with a board that allows you to test early. Start logging hours as quickly as possible and log the hours in the difficult categories whenever possible. Additionally, start studying for the NCARBs as soon as you graduate and if possible don't wait to complete your hours before testing.