Importance of Post Post Production

[CHE]

I just want to run a small survey to see what people think about post production. How important is it for you as a professional architectural illustrator? Do you think that the use of post production is a common practice in our business? Are there any people providing their clients with final renderings straight out of the rendering package? Feel free to post examples (before and afters). I will really appreciate your insight into this matter.

 

Thanks,

Ernesto

Edited March 24, 2010 by CHE

[BVI]

I just want to run a small survey to see what people think about post production. How important is it for you as a professional architectural illustrator? Do you think that the use of post production is a common practice in our business? Are there any people providing their clients with final renderings straight out of the rendering package? Feel free to post examples (before and afters). I will really appreciate your insight into this matter.

 

Thanks,

Ernesto

 

 

Hi Ernesto - We tend to try and get as much of the modelling done "in-camera" - which includes planting etc. It cuts down on the time to do changes etc. We don't render the sky in, and drop it in afterwards. People and other billboards are done in post and then the image is tweaked, colour corrected and then presented. We spend about 25% of the total time for a project in post (but not necessarily applying effects) just making sure the image is as prefect as possible.

[ronll]

I would rather use less post, but my clients always seem to want more. To me the more post, or entourage there is, the "messier" the image is. Typically architectural photographers try to get people out of a scene, but architectural imaging clients seem to want crowds. It is also the "entourage" in an image that usually looks the least real, especially if overdone. I could also work a lot cheaper with less post.

 

An example of minimal post; one person, one tree, small groundcover.

http://www.ronlloyd.com/folio14a.htm

Edited March 24, 2010 by ronll

[erickdt]

I think post is a crucial step towards taking an image to the next level. I don't do much Photoshopping in elements trying instead to accomplish as much as possible in terms of image content within the 3D package. I do however do extensive color and levels tweaking as well as adding procedural type effects (glows, noise, etc.). As much as I can, I try to automate the process by developing a series of actions that make these tweaks in a uniform manor from image to image.

 

E

Edited March 24, 2010 by erickdt

[CJI]

I too try to make the base render work as hard as it can for me to limit the amount of unique work necessary in post so updates to multiple images is a little more straight forward. Saying that i agree with Erick that post work is a crucial step, and i think you will find that most do extensive colour work and some effects work also.

[Tommy L]

I use lots of post. DOF and Motion Blur are frequently too slow to render so are post processes, especially in animation. Not to mention the greater control post prod provides.

Color balancing, levels/curves changes, people, skies, grass (in stills), NPR techniques, the list is huge. I think I do more in post, but it takes less time, does that make sense?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

If you are not using post, then you are missing a vital step in the process.

 

I agree with Arnold. 25-30 percent of the time should be in post. Not only are you adding elements that bring the image to life, and give special character, as well as color grading, but many things can be done faster in post.

 

Even if you only do color grading adjustments in post, it is going to help.

 

The part that slows you down is if the view changes, or if their are many views of the same space. This is why it is so important to have the views selected before you begin on a project. That way you can focus energy in both post, and 3d at the same time to get the best product int he end.

[anejo]

Having a lot of time constraints with clients, post work has become a very important for me. And with the advances in PS, i've been able to spend even less time doing post work now and getting the product to the client sooner.

 

Do I think "post production is a common practice in our business?" - Yes i would think it is.

[carlotristan3d]

I would rather use less post, but my clients always seem to want more. To me the more post, or entourage there is, the "messier" the image is. Typically architectural photographers try to get people out of a scene, but architectural imaging clients seem to want crowds. It is also the "entourage" in an image that usually looks the least real, especially if overdone. I could also work a lot cheaper with less post.

 

An example of minimal post; one person, one tree, small groundcover.

http://www.ronlloyd.com/folio14a.htm

 

looks like the sample image could use more post, LOL. IMHO post is what separates the artist from the technician.

[ronll]

IMHO post is what separates the artist from the technician.

 

Then I guess all photographers are just technicians.

 

IMHO, post is what covers up for bad artists.

 

In hod rod circles they have a saying, "If it don't go, chrome it." And in my architecture days, a similar saying was, "If it's bad design, cover it with growies (landscape)".

Edited March 24, 2010 by ronll

[BrianKitts]

Then I guess all photographers are just technicians.

 

IMHO, post is what covers up bad artists.

 

not necessarily true.....

 

I do post on all my architectural photography as well. Adjusting colorbalance, comping exposures for exterior windows in interior shots, and perspective correction (tilt-shift lens.... next purchase)

Edited March 24, 2010 by BrianKitts

[Tommy L]

Then I guess all photographers are just technicians.

 

IMHO, post is what covers up for bad artists.

 

In hod rod circles they have a saying, "If it don't go, chrome it." And in my architecture days, a similar saying was, "If it's bad design, cover it with growies (landscape)".

 

I frequently used to hear "You can't polish a turd" in England......

 

I dont agree with this mindset however. I just think Post is a different set of tools. If you use one better than the other, who cares? Its the result that matters. I also think that knowing how both toolsets to achieve your desired result in the most efficient manner is key to a happy project.

[ronll]

I think my point is not that post should be avoided, just that it should be used judiciously and with restraint.

 

We should probably also define our terms a bit. There are many kinds of post. I certainly don't object to color and contrast balancing, but what I dislike is using post to add too much entourage.

Edited March 24, 2010 by ronll

[BrianKitts]

I think my point is not that post should be avoided, just that it should be used judiciously and with restraint.

 

What's your reasoning for judicial use and restraint?

 

IMO it's a waste of time to try and do everything in preproduction. There are so many things that can be done so much quicker in post that you'd be a fool to waste time doing 10 test renderings just to tweak a color to get it just right. Post production is instant gratification you can tweak and adjust in realtime and see your final product. Learn how to do non-destructive post production and you can integrate it into workflow such that you will wonder why you never did it that way before.

 

It's not about the process it's the end result, to each their own process.... but the hint behind all this is that every 3d artist that you have ever looked at a rendering and said "WOW THAT'S AMAZING"..... it's the post production that sets them above the rest.

 

for instance... http://forums.cgarchitect.com/39891-roberto-de-rose-state-art-february-25-2010-a-2.html#post276717

 

 

although I guess there is some need for restraint in post

My record is something around the 1000 mark for layers, and i have no problem with that many layers in CS4 running smoothly.

Edited March 24, 2010 by BrianKitts

[rdubrow]

I think the amount of time in post has a direct relationship to the art direction of the image. More photorealistic probably means more in 3d, less post. A more painterly image means less 3d, more post.

 

Also, 3d has a production curve where you make a lot of progress in the beginning and middle then start running into diminished returns toward the end (polishing). Is it worth relighting a scene in 3d, re-rendering, etc to get more pop in the lighting when all you need is a quick 10 second levels in pshop? Where that production curve starts turning horizontal is where you should get into post. Where that is is different for each project and each shop...

 

For me its pretty hard to image a successful image with no post...even from a very accomplished 3d artist.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

I have only heard of 1 Hollywood special FX film that was done without extensive post production work, and color grading.

[mattclinch]

cheeky Brian!

 

i still stand by that 60% or more of any image I do will be in Photoshop. The more you can get in the render the better, but I have yet to see a render which needed zero post whatsoever.

[Arnold Sher]

I think my point is not that post should be avoided, just that it should be used judiciously and with restraint.

 

We should probably also define our terms a bit. There are many kinds of post. I certainly don't object to color and contrast balancing, but what I dislike is using post to add too much entourage.

 

Hi Ron,

 

I am proud to say, i am all about entourage.. I love painting on top of my 3d's!! I've been drawing forever, i went to art school for twelve years and i can do things in post that you'll never achieve in 3d (well, not in time constraints that my clients want it anyway...:)) The point here really is not how much we use of this or that but how we use it and as long as it adds to your work flow and improves your imagery nobody rally gives a continental how you got there.. i never certainly got briefed by a client: " and Arnold, i just hope you don't use too much of that Photoshop thing to make my project more beautiful.." I mean that's just rubbish...

 

Anyway, to show you real power of post is i would like to show you guys an image that i have posted previously in a finished projects section. What i did not include was the original image that i started with. A bit of a background story was that a client requested a night shot in a last minute and we basically had six hours to bake something of what was to become the key image of the pitch. We landed up rendering an image with a single light set really low, almost on a horizon and everything else was done by me in post production..

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Hi Ron,

 

I am proud to say, i am all about entourage.. I love painting on top of my 3d's!! I've been drawing forever, i went to art school for twelve years and i can do things in post that you'll never achieve in 3d (well, not in time constraints that my clients want it anyway...:)) The point here really is not how much we use of this or that but how we use it and as long as it adds to your work flow and improves your imagery nobody rally gives a continental how you got there.. i never certainly got briefed by a client: " and Arnold, i just hope you don't use too much of that Photoshop thing to make my project more beautiful.." I mean that's just rubbish...

 

Anyway, to show you real power of post is i would like to show you guys an image that i have posted previously in a finished projects section. What i did not include was the original image that i started with. A bit of a background story was that a client requested a night shot in a last minute and we basically had six hours to bake something of what was to become the key image of the pitch. We landed up rendering an image with a single light set really low, almost on a horizon and everything else was done by me in post production..

 

Looking at your before image, I notice the people are already positioned. Do you render these in place via billboard, rather than doing them all in post?

[Arnold Sher]

Looking at your before image, I notice the people are already positioned. Do you render these in place via billboard, rather than doing them all in post?

 

Hey Travis,

 

I think in this particular instance we put them as billboards within 3d and i am sure there was reason for it which for the life of me i cannot remember (will query with my crew tomorrow). Usually we dump people in post...

[re vit]

Arnold it's simply amazing! I can hardly prohibit myself to ask you "how?" Damn I have to ask you: how did you lighted it up?

Edited March 24, 2010 by 1rv

[Noise]

Anyone who is getting into 3D - I suggest they learn the usual software but place alot more emphasis on photoshop as the cornerstone program.

 

To get an excellent image without using post is like trying to win a grand prix by using only one gear.

[CHE]

Thank you all for the replies. I also think that post-production is an essential part of our profession. Any professional 3D architectural Illustrator should feel comfortable using not only their 3D package of choice but also an image editing software. After all, we are digital architectural photographers. We have to keep in mind that post-production is not something new. Photoshop and any other image editing program were developed following basic dark room techniques from film photography. I still have to meet a professional photographer that doesn't do any editing work to his pictures. Post-production doesn't necessarily add more time to the process but the opposite if planned correctly. Even for animation, After Effects is a crucial part of the rendering process.

By the way, here is a link to a tutorial about post-production from Neoscape. I think that learning how to take advantage of render elements is a must in our profession:

 

See Below

 

Please keep posting your thoughts.

Edited March 25, 2010 by CHE

[BrianKitts]

By the way, here is a link to a tutorial about post-production from Neoscape. I think that learning how to take advantage of render elements is a must in our profession:

 

http://en.9jcg.com/comm_pages/blog_content-art-151.htm

 

That website pops up a malware advisory (at least in chrome it does).... perhaps it might be better to point to the area.com where the tutorial is hosted.

 

http://area.autodesk.com/tutorials/exterior_scenes_part_4_rendering_and_post

[anejo]

That website pops up a malware advisory (at least in chrome it does).... perhaps it might be better to point to the area.com where the tutorial is hosted.

 

http://area.autodesk.com/tutorials/exterior_scenes_part_4_rendering_and_post

 

It also does a malware advisory in IE 8