Is ArchiCAD really the Holy Grail?

[STRAT]

ArchiCAD is by no means the holy grail. It's just a shame it isn't more popular than it is now. At the mo, Autocad has the huge lion's shear of the market, and it's well known and well used by allot of ppl out there.

 

I personally use it because it does 99% of what i want it to do and it intergrates with my other 3d apps very nicely. Pluss, i've been using it for over 10 years and it's what im happy with.

 

Archicad on the other hand is also a very tasty tool. It is a pure architect's/engineer's modelling tool, specifically taylored for their needs.

 

"....Where will 3dsmax fit into the picture after work is done in ArchiCAD, and are both necessary for photorealistic renders AND quick turnaround time?...." - Archicad has it's own very compotent renderer (as does ACAD) but IMHO a 3d app like Max/Viz will give a better photoreal finish to your work.

 

"....Will I need to do any additional modeling or modifying of geometry inside of max?...." - it's like AutoCAD in this respect, you may find Max better for more organic modelling than Archicad, and vice-versa on other features.

 

"....If you've done scenes both with and without ArchiCAD, would you ever consider taking on a large project without it?...." - Absolutely. treat it as you would Acad, it's just a different solution thats all.

 

"....If you don't necessarily need all of the advanced functions of ArchiCAD(such as the documentation features) and are using it primarily as a visualization tool(with max, or alone), is it the best choice?...." - Again, use it like you used Acad. I dont use allot of acad's features, but i think for architectural modelling a CAD and a 3d app is essential together for a complete solution

 

"....Will ArchiCAD take advantage of a high-end machine built for max? ...." - yup!

 

Basically it's whatever rocks ur boat. Archicad and Autocad are 2 similar packages in many respects, but have a different approach to work load. 1 is not better than the next. Both integrate nicely with each other and 3dstudio max.

Some ppl even prefer to do all their work soley in max (see Nisus) which is fine too.

 

I suggest you getting the demo before spending all that money. The software is just a tool, you are the artist.

 

As i say, i prefer AutoCAD even tho we use Archicad too, but imho i wouldn't be without a 3d app to finish off my imagery.

 

[ July 24, 2002, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: STRAT ]

[plastic]

here are some older and newer things i did with archicad & 3dsmax...

 

http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9926343/archicad2max/

 

the water animals (don't laugh ) and the water chute were modelled with max, the rest is archicad.

most furniture objects are archicad standard library elements.

all textures are self-made or 3dsmax standard textures. lighting & texturing is 100% 3dsmax.

 

archicad's strong point is fast modelling of architectual content (it would take me about 5x the time if i would do it with max, or more)

3dsmax/viz is perfect for visualizing & adding some details (trees, terrain), texturing, rendering.

 

[ July 24, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Marc Lorenz ]

[Ken Walton]

Marc & STRAT:

 

Thx for all your input. I'm going to setup a demo with a local reseller today to check out ArchiCAD. That's the one I'm leaning towards.

 

Marc: what do you render with? erker.jpg is most relevant to the results I'll need to achieve? Is this GI or did you fake it?

 

Thnks everyone-

Ken Walton

[plastic]

erker.jpg was done with mental ray for max. its probably 3 years old...

its semi-faked GI

there is a supporting non-shadow casting omni light in the center of the room, in addition to a skydome and the sun.

i would archieve cleaner (and faster) results with today's renderers, brazil, vray, finalrender.

 

lightscape/viz4 radiosity is hardly an option here, because of the many small details (stucco).

[Ken Walton]

How do you rate Art*lantis? Is it worth it if you've got max+fR?

[plastic]

ha, artlantis is a toy...i got it for free with archicad 7. not the same league as 3dsmax+finalrender

[Paul Griger]

Hi Ken,

 

Here is what I know and my background. You can take my experience for what it’s worth…

 

I just bought ArchCAD 7.0 [AC] in Dec 2001. I bought a 2nd seat in May of this year for a new employee.

 

I have zero experience in MAX. I have just retained my first paying client this week to do rendering and movies for marketing of a condo project. I typically do architectural plan work but I am trying to move into offering rendering services also. Safe to say that I am green in rendering.

 

"....Where will 3dsmax fit into the picture after work is done in ArchiCAD, and are both necessary for photorealistic renders AND quick turnaround time?...."

 

I have taken models done in AC and import them into Art*Lantis. Art*Lantis does zero modeling. We were able to do the renderings w/out additional modeling to a professional enough level in Art*Lantis to retain a client for this condo project. We also have won 3 awards w/the AIBD here in the USA based on our renderings in Art*Lantis. We are going to be the cover feature article in DesignLine, AIBD’s mag, showing these renderings. We are also to be featured in a Better Homes and Gardens special interest mag called “Home Planning Ideas” featuring the same renderings.

 

So what I am saying is that yes, the modeling is capable enough in AC that you can use your rendering software of choice.

 

Will I need to do any additional modeling or modifying of geometry inside of max?...."

 

See above. Basically, we do architecture and ArchiCAD thinks like an Architect. My only beef right now with AC is that the window and door libraries are put together wack.

 

"....If you don't necessarily need all of the advanced functions of ArchiCAD(such as the documentation features) and are using it primarily as a visualization tool(with max, or alone), is it the best choice?...."

 

I’m sure that any program can do the modeling that is needed. But again, AC thinks like an architect. My new employee was doing full 3D homes within a week in AC, and he has zero modeling experience! So AC I feel is very user friendly. I don’t care for Art*Lantis though.

 

After seeing the work that Strat has done w/C4D, I have seriously considered using this program. I am in no way satisfied w/Art*Lantis, and I was looking at Viz 4 & Lightwave for a while. Viz 4 doesn’t do caustics and I’ve heard that it is slower than C4D. Lightwave does fantastic output but I found the interface hard to get used to. I thought Strat was using Lightwave until he stated otherwise. So now I looked at C4D, used the demo and am sold! And it imports AC’s models perfectly. I found AC’s models in Art*Lantis imported the model in sloppy meshes. C4D seems to have cleared things up when importing AC’s model/meshes. And now there is a special running at Maxon till the end of July that will let you upgrade to the new C4D release 8 for free in the fall if you buy C4D 7 XL [includes animation] for only $995! Fabulous deal!

 

"....Will ArchiCAD take advantage of a high-end machine built for max? ...."

Sorta. Doesn’t use the 2 CPU’s, and doesn’t use open GL cards as of yet. AC 8.0 coming out this fall will make use of open GL cards, but I think that dual CPU’s will not be used.

 

http://www.graphisoft.com/news/ac8.html

 

I have a dual AMD and AC runs just as fast [or slow] on the dual as my single CPU machine.

 

C4D does use the dual CPU’s. I can visually see the 2 CPU’s in use during a render of C4D in the demo version I downloaded. And the new release option for $995 will include C4D’s “net render” , very cool!

 

http://www.maxon.net/index_e.html

 

So, what I am doing is getting C4D XL, then getting the upgrade from Maxon for free in the fall. C4D will handle AC’s meshes/models well, so little modeling will have to be done in C4D. And if modeling does have to be done on a small scale, the demo of C4D seemed pretty easy to use.

 

If you want to buy AC, buy it used from someone else and have the license transferred to you to save $. Make sure you buy from someone in the states. Graphisoft is getting strict about transferring licenses from one international branch to the other. Go here and post that you are looking for a license, you may get a nibble:

 

http://www.escribe.com/software/archicadtalk/

 

join the group here:

 

http://www.graphisoft.com/support/discussion_groups/

 

Best wishes!

[CHE]

This is a very interesting Topic. I have been doing all my 3D modeling in AutoCAD for 4 years now and I have found that its Surface modeling is the most flexible and clean way to go. I know that it takes time to get used to 3d Faces and that it's more time consuming than Solid modeling but at least everything will be on place, right, and ready to be imported into MAX or VIZ.

Now, ArchiCAD...ummmm. I haven't touch it at all, so I wonder: is it really that good? Better than AutoCAD? Would I be able to open doors and windows without worrying about Booleans (solids) or without having to model them up in VIZ or MAX? What about 3d navigation tools? I really hate AutoCAD's 3D navigations tools. First, the Undo command is a never ending journey because it goes through all the orbit, pan, and zoom that were done until that point. Second, it's 3D orbit is exterior. Other than that I think that AutoCAD is the best tool for all your 3D modeling.

 

[ July 24, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: CHE ]

[Ken Walton]

Okay, this WILL be the last post I make tonight, but I'm kinda worked into a frenzy over this.

 

In addition to the previous topic, "Is max a complete solution", my main questions are these:

 

Where will 3dsmax fit into the picture after work is done in ArchiCAD, and are both necessary for photorealistic renders AND quick turnaround time?

 

Will I need to do any additional modeling or modifying of geometry inside of max?

 

If you've done scenes both with and without ArchiCAD, would you ever consider taking on a large project without it?

 

If you don't necessarily need all of the advanced functions of ArchiCAD(such as the documentation features) and are using it primarily as a visualization tool(with max, or alone), is it the best choice?

 

Will ArchiCAD take advantage of a high-end machine built for max? Such as: Dual Xeon 2.4's,

1GB RAM, Quadro4 900 XGL...

 

I just want to be sure that this $4000 is spent most effectively, since the same amount was spent on max, and max5 is on the way. I really appreciate everyone's patience and tolerance for my seemingly endless inquiries here - it's good to know that you guys don't snub newer users.

 

Sincerely,

Ken Walton

[Paul Griger]

CHE,

 

I haven’t used ACAD since R11, so I have no experience in 3D modeling w/ACAD.

 

To address you Q’s as best I can

 

Better than AutoCAD?

User preference I guess…

 

Would I be able to open doors and windows without worrying about Booleans (solids) or without having to model them up in VIZ or MAX?

 

In ArchiCAD [AC] you can specify what percentage you want to have a door open [sliders & hinged doors] on the floor plan and then a separate amount open in 3D.

 

I can export a plan into a .3ds file containing a wall w/multiple doors open and closed for you and you can tell see how it works on an import

 

What about 3d navigation tools?

 

Vast array of them, View in a parallel or perspective easily. Can rotate the camera around a focus point or the structure around the camera at the click of a button. Can walk in and out towards the focal point, plus roll, etc… You can also bring up a floor plan view and locate where you want to place the camera, focal point, and sunlight. You can save different camera views that are accessible in one mouse click.

At first it was a bit overwhelming, but I use it with ease now.

 

I really hate AutoCAD's 3D navigations tools. First, the Undo command is a never ending journey because it goes through all the orbit, pan, and zoom that were done until that point.

 

The undo command button is separate from the zoom/display undo. You can undo commands, but there is also a separate toolbar to multiple undo/redo zooms!

 

Second, it's 3D orbit is exterior.

Not sure what the “ORBIT” tool is in ACAD. You can spin the model or the camera interior or exterior-wise, it’s all the same in AC. This may not be what you are asking though…

 

Other than that I think that AutoCAD is the best tool for all your 3D modeling.

It still maybe for you. Everyone has different needs. I guess you could download a demo and give it a whirl.

 

http://www.3dcadco.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.100.exe/scstore/c-Demos.html?L+scstore+kztv4663ff7bc07b+1027564501

 

I am looking at buying an add on library for windows & doors for AC. This library claims to “open & close the door” as you approach it in a 3D movie. See here:

 

Check out page 9. Says doors open in fly-throughs:

 

http://www.theometric.co.nz/documentation/Door_WindowBuilder_3_Manual.pdf

[CHE]

Paul,

 

Great, I'll give it a try. I'm downloading the Demo right now. As for the .3ds file,could you please send it to: pachecojake@ameritech.net I'll post back. Thanks for the comments.

 

[ July 24, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: CHE ]

[Paul Griger]

CHE,

 

Do you have broadband Internet hook-up? I could send a full home .3ds file for you to monkey around on if you wanted. I will send the wall demo to you right now.

 

I’m curious on how experts would regard AC’s export format.

[CHE]

Yes I do, but I won't be home until late, maybe around 10:00pm and 11:00pm How big is the file? could you send it to my e-mail account. I can recive big files. Otherwise, we can always wait until tomorrow afternoon. Thanks

[Paul Griger]

CHE,

 

I just sent a few little 3ds files out to you.

 

The .3ds file of the home that I was curious about is zipped into a 3MB file. That shouldn’t be a problem, right?

 

I’ll just send it out. Let me know if it doesn’t work out.

 

thx

[Paul Griger]

Ken,

 

Marc is right. Art*Lantis is a toy compared to fr, and other rendering software that is typically used here. Art*Lantis may be nice just to get your feet wet in the rendering realm, but it’s use for serious commercial work is heavily limited.

 

No modeling, unorthodox interface [many times user friendly, but just awkward], no GI or radiosity , no caustics, etc…

[Ken Walton]

Hey everyone -

 

To anyone who's interested in ArchiCAD, CHECK IT OUT! Even if you've been an AutoCAD or ADT user for 20 years, you might find yourself wanting to make the switch. I just bought mine yesterday, and it should be here today. It was $3950 for a single seat, but you might find a local reseller willing to knock off a few hundred to get you to buy from them instead of going out of state t o avoid sales tax. I was invited to a WebEx demo/conference call yesterday given to myself and four architects by GraphiSoft. Everyone of us were sold (I had already purchased) by the end of the hour. Most of the architects were blown away by the intuitive design and automated features it offered, and these guys ARE old school acad and adt users. The "virtual building" concept is unbelievable - make one change in any area - 2D, 3D, door/window schedules, etc. - and the changes are made automatically across the board. Not being an architect myself, a lot of the features such as teamwork - which allows you to marquee areas of the same plan for different team members to work on simultaneously without interference - will not be fully utilized. This kind of integration though is what I've believed SHOULD be part of any design/planning team's arsenal. What they "demo'd" in an hour would have taken an experienced 3dsmax user a few days to a week to do solely inside of max.

 

CHECK IT OUT!

 

Best regards,

Ken Walton

[Paul Griger]

Ken,

 

Congratulations, and welcome aboard!

 

If you have any Q's, feel free to contact me.

[CHE]

Paul,

 

I got the files yesterday. I'll check them out tonight. I'm really curious. I'll give ArchiCAD a try, no doubt. I'll get back to you later. Thanks

[STRAT]

well i must say, i'm an AutoCAD officianado myself, and have been using autocad for 13 years pluss. I love the program and am extreamely competant with it (IMHO).

 

but if i were starting out from fresh tomorrow, i'd plum for AC over AutoCAD. We use it anyway in work and i can see it's performance. Not the best modeller and renderer i've ever seen by far, but it is a pure architect's tool. A cracking one stop station.

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

Just my thought: Why do people want themselves to be a vulnerable target at software-bugs/incompabilities etc. by changing from program to program? I'm sure I don't understand this way of self-torturing (well, that's the way I see it at last...)

 

Personally, I just love to do everything in just one prog... saves you a great amount of money and lot's of headaches on corrupt files or export errors etc. too!

 

rgds

 

nisus

[matt_vinoir]

good point nixus. Im back for dimploma this semptember and will be doing a bit of tutoring for archicad students. i've used it for five years along with artlantis. It is a bit of a toy like those key boards where you press a button for the drum and another for an automatic melody.

But it is supposed to have gi in its new version out now. Still i like viz. Arcjhicad imports well into viz( as well as any good dwg file transfer will anyway!)

Archicads problem is that for complex elevations you have to model in plan, save as a library object and rotate up for a quick modeling time.

It doesn't do booleans really, which i have grown to use all the time. Vectorworks is different in that you can model in every plane but i'm going back to archicad because its really good at letting you see where you are. You don't get lost in lines on the screen like trying to model in viz. It has a few bugs but it is a nice package. I prefer 2d drawing in vectorworks though, much quicker and nicer

[STRAT]

i see where you're comming from nisus, but personally i like to spread out my wings and learn new stuff where i can. i dont see it as torturing myself, more like opening more horizons.

 

if i can discover new software than can do wat i want quicker and easier that i previously didn't know about then i feel im better off in the future. certainly in the job market.

[Ken Walton]

STRAT:

 

I agree with you completely about learning new software - if a different title could increase productivity, even on one project, I truly believe you should make every effort possible to determine if it could be a better option that your current or favorite software. And practicing this method in every job you take on, will be the only way to overcome translation issues. Sure, it can be tough at first, but people are definitely capable of it - how many languages does the Pope speak?(just an example - heard it on the radio this morning)

 

I can't honestly gauge the effectiveness of switching between acad and archicad, being that I just started with these programs. But I have been in creative/design work (everything from graphic design to broadcast animation to audio production)for the past 8 years and switch between similar software titles that have completely different terminology, navigation, and workflow (ie. 3dsmax, Maya, Softimage) on a daily basis. After a while, it just becomes second nature. After flying to France ten times, you'll remember to speak French when you get off the plane...

 

I think it all depends on the project though - if it's possible for you to stay solely inside your favorite, strongest program - congratulations, you could probably get a commission from the vendor with your testimony. But this is hardly ever the case - if I was able to fulfill all of my visualization needs in my favorite program, 3dsmax, this topic wouldn't even be open right now. Somebody on here said it best when they said "All ways go to Rome." They do - it just depends on how much you want to pay for the shortest flight.

 

Render happy.

Ken Walton

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

Personnally I am very fond of learning new software. But I do got my own thoughts on using it in production...

I know some progs focus on one thing at which they do very well, but I prefer to stick to a standard. Why?

Say you want a great render good atmosphere, nature, water etc...

Would you use a different program for the terrain? another one for trees? another one for mapping? another one for modelling real environments from photographs? another one for modelling? and what about flowing water? or a moving vehicle? etc.

 

Of course a standard is never state of the art, but it's good enough for keeping the daily workflow alive.

 

The way I do it is to look at ways and worflows of other packages, and try to adopt/alter these in my favourite software. Most of the time, I can do the same things much faster in my 'default' program. If I can't I'll switch programs, but this nearly happens. If it does happen, I'll go for plugins that adopt the workflow of my standard, like many plugins in max. If not, I'll suffer? lol...

 

Here is a testcase that I did:

Imagemodeler: Damn good idea, but very sloggish modeling facility. I prefer sub-object modelling in max and being backed up with ps*, I get the same results without getting too frustrated.

(Anyone got a tutorial on modeling complex shapes (like cars) in Imagemodeler?)

 

Here is a double thought: I agree that having a broad arsenal of knowlegde in software is a good idea when you're applying for a job, but would on e not be careful to still being able to swim without all sort of floaters too? I mean, you should still be able to model, animate and light your scene without bells and glitter from specialized plugins because some firms just don't buy all software available for whatever reason they got.

Say, you manage to make brilliant landscapes in bryce, what would you do if bryce is not available to you? (Do you remember the Bryce-hype? Reflective spheres floating above brilliant landscapes? - too many amateurs don't grow beyond the limits of the software.)

 

And besides, professionals just don't want standard output from any application.

Say, who wants a standard ps* watercolorplugin to go for cutting-edge NPR*-results??? No one!

 

Honestly, it's not the techniques that limits me using a standard application, but bugs in programs while exporting. And costs of course... I don't want to buy a new program for every little idea that pops up into my mind. Especially because I feel that most software is very limited in doing only one or two things, and that it's hard to outgrow it's standard output. Most of the time trying to reproduce techniques with a 'standard' application forces you into a harder but often more controlled way of thinking/producing, the latter being more open for an artistic touch...

 

rgds

 

nisus

 

*PS: photoshop

*NPR: non-photorealistic rendering

 

[ July 28, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: nisus ]

[matt_vinoir]

Interestingly, the one thing i wish archicad could do is good boolean operations. That would make life nice and easy. Luckily i heard this is to be included in version 8 out in october. Hope the info is correct. Loos like my modelling dreams are being answered finally!!

 

Btw does anyone know how to get around importing 3d dwg files into a student version of archicad?