The future of Architectural Visualization

[luckytohaveher]

I should be using ADT max and Vray........?

… but is this the recomendation for the right software to use to get on in the future.

phil

 

You're welcome...

 

While I don't think the future of Architectural Visualization hinges on any particular platform, OS, software, or plugin, I do think it is important to note several key issues.

 

The future, now actually, of the market is driven by economics. It drives EVERYTHING! ‘Do you want the red pill or the blue pill?’ That is why throughout this thread you have seen several references on all sides of the issue. Some people say 'it is all about the technology' while others say 'it is just about being smart and technology doesn't matter'. Still others say ‘the whole thing is going to pot’ and others are proclaiming ‘the optimistic future of science fiction is here’. The real truth is that we are all looking at the same half full and half empty glass. Yes there are cracks, and yes, the liquid inside isn't as clear as anyone would really like.

 

I think endorsing one product or set of ideas places you in the age old 'us vs. them' mentality. You loose objectivity and perspective.

 

I can say this -- I remember the Autocad vs. Microstation battle-royal days. It was pathetic. One set of users would proclaim that Microstation was the best due to this or that. Another set would say Autocad is it without question and ‘we will win’ anyway. The reality was Microstation was a better platform if you ignored two primary issues. 1.) It was harder to learn and thus difficult to get a critical mass of user-base who knew how to produce on it. 2.) You ignored the limited and difficult programmability. Autocad was only better if 1.) You ignored how simple the underlying database was and thus the inherent limitations that provided later. 2.) Copied it and used it illegally like everyone else for 5-10 years and only paid for it through fear of being sued. 3.) Realized that open-architecture and programmability could concur all – even a really bad database design.

 

Now to products – this will of course destroy my credibility: I just got back from Siggraph. The Intel/Microsoft/Autodesk (o.k. discreet {isn’t ‘distinction without a difference’ a logical fallacy?} whatever…) juggernaut has completely decimated the competition. In the ‘good old days’, way back when proprietary Unix was still around you had SUN, SGI, IBM, Evans & Sutherland, MIPS, and a list of other really high-end exotic product to produce radical change in a growing market. Now it is boring pizza boxes everywhere running something from Wal-Mart. Why???

 

Economics! If I can produce a market acceptable product at 1/10th the cost and no one will know the difference why wouldn’t I? Discreet is simply copying the Autodesk/Autocad model and flooding the market with barely better software with minimal improvements at each micro step release. The same is true for ADT/Autocad. I still like Autocad R12 better than 13, 14, 75, 20069 – whatever. Yes 14 was better, but that is only because they went back and made it more like R12. Yet I digress. I won’t even get into the mess in their pants when they saw REVIT. They had good reason to be afraid – that is why they bought it.

 

Back to the subject at hand: It will absolutely be an ADT/MAX world in a matter of time. Not due to some better product or grand idea, it will simply be the ‘S-curve of adoption’ again. If 90% of the market is using a particular product, than I am at an economic disadvantage vis-à-vis labor, support, compatibility, etc. I am actually economically punished for going outside the Autocad monopoly. I saw this happen in the late 80’s and early 90’s in Cad and today again in the Viz market. I actually saw an architectural drawing set produced on a Mac the other day – it was so cute… so quaint… so simplistic…

 

Back to you: Place your bets! It is your career and your income stream. Bet on the most likely prognosis given the available data and your best guess on the foreseeable situation. BIM (Building Information Model) is here and will undoubtedly be the next wave of technology for the architectural and visualization market (as they merge). That makes rendering and animation a double-click away. Then, of course, it is back to how good can you design, how well do you know the building code, are you productive? --> So long as you can do it with the current economically viable production tool.

 

Sad to say, I just left the visualization market, probably for good. I was hired by a client to represent a client day in and day out. I can make more money with less economic uncertainty and egos on the other side of the table. Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

[Frosty]

Ted, I don't agree with everything you say but thank you for the well thought and well written posts.

[Richard McCarthy]

Thank you very much for the reply, It is encouraging to think that i will be of some value in the future.

I think I will discuss the issue of time on projects and limiting the amount I work on a week, which is quite often two and that's from start to finish.

 

One think dose interest me...

you siad that I should be using ADT max and Vray........?

Not thyat i am arguing this, but is this the recomendation for the right software to use to get on in the future.

I agree with you, I am using formz and microstation, and hate the sight of microstation it is a cad package, and not user friendly at all.

Formz is not handleing big projects at all for me anymore, quite often now on a weekly basis files are getting close to 20mb and formz will not handle anymore than that I am finding.

 

So I would like to hear your opinion on ADT and Max for a start.I was thinking of switching to Max on it's own, but do you think I also need adt, if so let me know why, and do you have any idea of prices, as I will have to put it too the mangers.

 

 

thanks again...

 

intereting reading....what is your background by the way. are you free lance?

phil

 

 

I wouldn't recommend ADT as it's possible (Autodesk has repeatly said) it will discontinue ADT soon. The future is Revit It's like mechanical desktop eventually get phase out by Autodesk Inventor.

 

 

Another thing Revit is true BIM package, unlike ADT which is just a bolt on (not true BIM).... There are more benefit to get into Revit now then ever...

 

 

As for the argument of quicker turn around :

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=7576

http://forums.augi.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3423

 

 

 

The model is straight out of Revit, and material is applied and render in VRay... (no I didn't do it, czoog did) the process is pretty easy, and I would say it will become even easier as Revit become more integrated with VIZ in next few release (possibly v7.0), which will possibly transfer all material information to the rendering engine (VIZ) with apporiate textures/materials, and you just need to press the render button

 

Now, if it's THAT EASY to create such image, would the architects contract out renderings and rather do it themself?

[luckytohaveher]

I could not agree more!

 

We essentially agree -- it is just a matter of how we describe it. BIM is it. It will be ubiquitous. If a rendering is essentially free once I have produced the BIM for the production drawings, why wouldn't I create them? If a BIM design model can crank out renderings, why wouldn't I print them?

 

ADT should go away -- it is REALLY painful. However, it is in the current production tool 'in the trenches'. Like I couched my comments earlier, endorsing one product or another is really pointless. The reality is that anyone in production of any kind needs to focus on where this really is going to happen.

 

BIM with free rendering and animation -- it isn't necessarily easy for people who depend on renderings for the rent, but it is inevitable...

[ihsan]

For me it is a matter of demand..most of the companies are requiring "masters of all trades" architects with 3D and photoshop skills and other options would be prefarable....

 

On the other hand the new graduates are trying to collect all the possible tools to compeate in the market

 

From my experience with all the due respect I fined those people are mostly not cood architects....."beeing a good callIgrapher dose not make you a good auther..."

[Richard McCarthy]

I see arch/VIZ as part of the a "small segment" of the process, so, having this process been contracted OUTSIDE the company is not benefitial to any company. Case in point, architect change the design DAILY (anyone work in one knows) if not multiple times a day, many details, color gets changed. For this reason alone, if the project is contract out and architect wants to see a preliminary, it would mean he would want to have the rendering sent back in 3 days (that's insanely fast already by industry standard) by then the design changes is leaps and bound different again, and there would be "lag" in the design process.

 

Now, when BIM software are introduced with integrated high quality renderer, as mention in previous posts, I think that would really make the design process more streamline, and under control. There won't be "lag" or fractures in the design process. It gives the architect more control, and that's exactly what a lot of architects would want.

 

As for realtime walkthrough, I would say, ask yourself, is it really that hard to produce realtime walkthrough? It is just one more process (texturebaking) and setting up the animation path (which revit can already do), so it would also be part of the BIM software no doubt about that...

 

So the future, I think is people would use integrated renderer in their BIM software...or at most in-house arch/viz team is the probably the way to go.

[Richard McCarthy]

For me it is a matter of demand..most of the companies are requiring "masters of all trades" architects with 3D and photoshop skills and other options would be prefarable....

 

On the other hand the new graduates are trying to collect all the possible tools to compeate in the market

 

From my experience with all the due respect I fined those people are mostly not cood architects....."beeing a good callIgrapher dose not make you a good auther..."

 

 

I don't think you can say been an good architect or not...what's GOOD architect??? what defines good? Most current generation of arch students knows CG intrisincally and I don't see any reason why it can make people bad architect....It clarify the design you have on PAPER. That's right, we don't just go straight in and design in CAD just like that.. we still use paper... CAD/BIM/3D is just part of the process. We are not different from the traditional architect except we acquired new tool and knowledge that aids us in the design process.

 

Outsourcing the CG also have the drawback of no direct feed back from the architect... there are a lot of issues concerning architecture and little details count... so having an inhouse team/or better having the rendering at the touch of the button, the architect can look over the shoulder or know exactly what's going on and can correct the mistakes in time and saves the money and TIME. Another thing is that, having outsourcing would also mean the CG artist are not part of the whole design process, there are other details that are omitted given to the artist...and if the CGa artist is somewhere ELSE like a continent away...it creates even more problem. Site conditions (for taking panorama photos / background) and other details that are not convey by the photo taken by the architect and sent to the artist, makes a lot of guessing game. If you are part process, even better on the locality of the project, you would have benefit of going down to the site and snap a few more photo, and knows the details in heart.

 

I think the best thing that an outsourcing CG artist can do is to offer realtime feedback to the architect. Perhaps the x-y-z generations (that we are) are more acceptable to online chatting / instant message service (MSN?) so if that's the case, it can definitely shorten this drawback. (Having inform the architect every few hours? minutes? through MSN)

[Sketchrender]

Hi

Our office is microstation based, so the enemy of autocad and triforma is thepackage we would use but for the moment tey do not want to implement it at all, because all members on the team have to use it , and this would not e parcticle a all.

 

 

There is a fundimental difference between modeling for vzualisation and modeling for morking models.

Discuss this if you think it is worth talking about.

But there is a big difference, with regards to time , quality and money involved in the whole process.

 

phil

[hockley91]

I stated this a few days ago, and still appears to be a valid point:

 

There is no way at all, that a recent graduate will have the skills that a professional 3D illustrator has developed. It takes time and "money" to develop these skills. The time can take years. I think we all know that for a fact.

 

Plus, in this field, you really need to know how to read plans. I doubt any recent graduate is that efficient at this. I'm not saying that they are not intelligent or can't do it, but again, it takes some experience to do this. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes either, but I think we've all been there ourselves. I still have trouble sometimes with plans....it really depends on how well they've been drawn.

 

I really think that there will be 'design' modelers and 'illustration' modelers for the final product. The 'design' modelers would be in-house and cheap labor, because they are fresh out of college and can create these models. They can even render pretty quickly with nice results, enough to get the idea across. Some firms might even use these renders to show the clients. I think the 'quality' issue becomes apparent though.

 

For quality renderings you would of course outsource it. You've got people that can create these virtual environments that are so real that it'll knock your socks off. In the next few years it'll even get more realistic. We've purchased our own software and plugins and we know what we're doing.

 

I don't see these architecture firms buying all the 'overhead' costs for amateur 3D modeling. They might buy 3D Viz or jsut use CAD or FormZ. I really think the head honchos don't even know what's all out there for this 3D profession. They have enough to worry about with the ADA and The International Building Code. I know because I'm working in an architecture office for my day job. They don't know about all the software and plugins and hardware that are involved. It can be pretty intense to research all that. Thank goodness we got a great forum here to consolidate a lot of these issues.

 

Anyway, until an office and an independent illustratrator achieve a balance with each other regarding pay wages, quality control, health insurance, I don't see the independent 3D illustrator fading away anytime soon. They can make more money and a good living on their own with their own 3D firm.

 

You really do get what you pay for in this field, and if you don't mind the cliche, "A picture is worth a thousand words". It really is!

[trhoads]

I am not sure why, but everyone who is just a visualization expert, has the attitude that if 3D is not your full time job, then you are not good enough at it to produce quality renderings that clients are more than happy with. Being a "them", I feel that the fact that I design and produce the construction drawings, and finally the renderings, makes it a lot easier, less time consuming, and in the end, better for the client.

 

If a 3D visualizer that has been in the business for a while, still has trouble reading plans, then that puts a kink in the pipeline of production. That person has to phone up the designer, or architect, hopefully they are in the office, ask questions, get answers and implement what they have learned in the model. Why not shortcut all of that?

 

I know it is not the norm, or by any means a standard for the new generation of architects, but it could be. As firms like mine have found that they can do this work in-house, they have spent some money to get the software. And the "thems" can get good enough at it, with practice. The "us" did not just start out knowing it all.

 

If a client is happy with my rendering, and it gives them a sense of reality and an idea of what their building will look like, then I would be hard pressed to sell them a more expensive rendering by a "professional", that might be a little better quality. Because after all, the renderings are for the clients, not so much for the architect.

 

Just my two cents. Give "them" a chance, and a little respect for the hard work that is put into this line of work.

[Sketchrender]

Hi again

BIM Is not the way to go for vizualisation.

In essence a viz guy only models what he has to, ie if it is not going to be in the picture you don't model it.

And it leads to less time, spent modeling, less time rendering, and shorter deadlines.

Using bim to do viz, wheather you are designing it ornot from scratch, I personally don't think it is for everybody, the amount of people who still work with sketch paper is unreal and that's for a reason.

 

they are two different ball games all together.

 

any way.

a question

3D studio max the latest.can it be used for seriuosly large sense I mean entire town centres,ie appartment blocks, shopping centres , existing site trees raods the works.

 

regards

phil

[Richard McCarthy]

I stated this a few days ago, and still appears to be a valid point:

 

There is no way at all, that a recent graduate will have the skills that a professional 3D illustrator has developed. It takes time and "money" to develop these skills. The time can take years. I think we all know that for a fact.

 

Plus, in this field, you really need to know how to read plans. I doubt any recent graduate is that efficient at this. I'm not saying that they are not intelligent or can't do it, but again, it takes some experience to do this. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes either, but I think we've all been there ourselves. I still have trouble sometimes with plans....it really depends on how well they've been drawn.

 

 

Hmm, I am not saying I am an expert at reading plan and all, since I am still in school, but I would say I am pretty confident at reading most of the AD/SD/CD plans, and surveyor's plan. I am sure most of the arch students in my class knows how to read it as well, because we are after all, studying these for the past few years... it's one of the requirement .

I also work in an Arch office as well, so I understand the workflow of how it all work. What you describing is more akin to what CG/multimedia design graduate will face if they want to get into this field, I seriously doubt any of them without any prior training can understand plan, or the intention of architect, or even spot a mistake or two....

[Richard McCarthy]

Hi again

BIM Is not the way to go for vizualisation.

In essence a viz guy only models what he has to, ie if it is not going to be in the picture you don't model it.

And it leads to less time, spent modeling, less time rendering, and shorter deadlines.

Using bim to do viz, wheather you are designing it ornot from scratch, I personally don't think it is for everybody, the amount of people who still work with sketch paper is unreal and that's for a reason.

 

they are two different ball games all together.

 

any way.

a question

3D studio max the latest.can it be used for seriuosly large sense I mean entire town centres,ie appartment blocks, shopping centres , existing site trees raods the works.

 

regards

phil

 

I think if there is a problem with 3D model output for rendering time concern from the BIM package, there is always the "DELETE" objects button

What I do is I output my revit model to MAX, and then delete most of the things not in the view, then boolean out the bit that's not also in the view but are attached to the same piece of geometry in view. (eg a very long road behind the camera)

 

As for 3D MAX can be use for very large scene, ofcourse it can, like I say, no software package is limitless in it's power, so you still have to do some manual optimisation of your own to get the rendering speed up like I mention above. But there exist a lot of games that can already display realistic cityscape in realtime so I don't see you would have problem rendering very large scene.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

why not use BIM for arch viz? ...streamline the process. create everything once. yes, you still need to play dress up for final renderings, but the core is already there. and this core can be used for CAD drawings, renderings, animations, ect... ect...

 

there seems to be a concern that quality will drop if renderings are done in a BIM process. why do they have to? i currently use formz and 3dmax for building, rendering, and animating. my formz models are typically more accurate then the plans i get from autocad. i won't even snap to autocad plans because they are so bad, but my formz model is insanely accurate.

 

it is only a matter of time before a software company invests enough time to get this right.

 

...and as for the art side of renderings. that is the side i love. .....but be reasonable, if good sun, texture, sky presets were available at the push of a button, they would suffice for 90% of the images an architect needs.

 

there will be a place for high quality renderings that can not be fullfilled in house. that everyone is in agreement on. ....but, streamlining the process will be the game over the next 10 years.

[hockley91]

I totally agree with "Crazy Homeless Guy".

 

I think in the next 5 years all of these issues will be a little clearer in the direction it's going. Maybe 5 years after that, we'll know for sure what's happening in this field.

 

There is definitely room for some organization here that'll be ironed out as the two fields (architecture & visualization) become more common with each other.

 

I know, with my architecture day job, that the 3D models I've been producing have helped the contractors out tremendously in their visualization of the overall projects. Some of them have even gone to the extent of having the images taped to the wall in the job trailer.

 

I think the "in-house" field will happen and is happening. Maybe the 3D illustrators will just be hanging out with the developers? We'll know for sure in the next 5-10 years...

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Some of them have even gone to the extent of having the images taped to the wall in the job trailer.

same here. renderings help the contractor see what the architect is trying to do. i did some renderings for st. vincent indianapolis, and the contractor had several copies in the job trailer. the foreman/superintendant on the job would carry them around the job site, when he was explaining how something needed to built to his workers, he would whip out the renderings and show what the final reult would be.

[Frosty]

I stated this a few days ago, and still appears to be a valid point:

 

There is no way at all, that a recent graduate will have the skills that a professional 3D illustrator has developed. It takes time and "money" to develop these skills. The time can take years. I think we all know that for a fact.

 

Plus, in this field, you really need to know how to read plans. I doubt any recent graduate is that efficient at this.

 

I still take exception to this. I think you underestimate the potential of recent grads - maybe it was your experience in school, maybe its the grads in your area. Not all recent grads are innept. I finished school on monday. Yes, 3 days ago. I have no problem calling myself professional.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

proffesional = you get paid for what you are doing, be it freelance or in a firm

[Frosty]

Not quite true CHG

There are only 4 true professions - well, not counting the oldest one . Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers and Architects are the only true professions (accountants may fit too) - in the sense that they require advanced training, have a governing body, and hold an ethical obligation to the public. That is the real definition of Profession. Additionally, these terms are protected by law. In other words, its illegal to call yourself A Doctor of Love or the Architect of the System. Those terms are only to be used by those accredited to use them.

 

Unfourtunatly, I think, we all use the term professional quite loosely - as I did in my previous post.

[trhoads]

Finally, someone else has heard this description of a professional. Accoutants are considered the 5th. The liscensing of these 5 occupations is part of what makes them a profession.

 

Too often I hear people use the word architect to describe a job, i.e.: the architect of the internet, or interior architect, my personal favorite, when they are really an interior designer, or worse just a decorator.

 

I considered raising this point, but so many people are professionals, professional athletes, professional visualizers, or anyone who thinks that because they have a college education and have gained employemtn as a result, they wnat to be a professional. As you said, the term has lost it's true meaning and significance, partly because I think that a lot of people will feel slighted if they can not call themselves a professional.

 

Just my thoughts...

[Frosty]

trhoads....Interior Architect is in the infancy stages of becoming a profession. Same with Landscape Architect. The school I attended had Masters degrees in both.

[trhoads]

Interior Design, is a licensable profession, so is Landscape Architecture. Some states require both to be licensed before they can open shop. But not many. The reason it bugs me to hear Interior Architect, is because most of what an interior designer does, is not part of the built environment. They add on to the built environment. Just a pet peeve and most likely a personal problem.

[Devin Johnston]

I still take exception to this. I think you underestimate the potential of recent grads - maybe it was your experience in school, maybe its the grads in your area. Not all recent grads are innept. I finished school on monday. Yes, 3 days ago. I have no problem calling myself professional.

 

I had the same opinion of my self when I graduated, I thought there was nothing I couldn’t do, or job that was too difficult for me to complete. It took several years of working in the field before I understood the depth of exactly what I didn't know. Recent grads have a lot of potential; I don't think that is up for debate, but to say that a graduate is going to have the same technical skills and abilities as someone who has been in the field for years is just crazy. I agree with hockley91, someone coming out of school might be able to create nice renderings, but how long will it take them to do it compared to a person who has 3 or 5 or more years experience.

[Richard McCarthy]

Not quite true CHG

There are only 4 true professions - well, not counting the oldest one . Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers and Architects are the only true professions (accountants may fit too) - in the sense that they require advanced training, have a governing body, and hold an ethical obligation to the public. That is the real definition of Profession. Additionally, these terms are protected by law. In other words, its illegal to call yourself A Doctor of Love or the Architect of the System. Those terms are only to be used by those accredited to use them.

 

Unfourtunatly, I think, we all use the term professional quite loosely - as I did in my previous post.

 

 

WHAT?? But my GF always called me Doctor of Love, Architect of orgasm, engineer of seduction, accountant of.......

[Frosty]

Recent grads have a lot of potential; I don't think that is up for debate, but to say that a graduate is going to have the same technical skills and abilities as someone who has been in the field for years is just crazy. I agree with hockley91, someone coming out of school might be able to create nice renderings, but how long will it take them to do it compared to a person who has 3 or 5 or more years experience.

 

I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but I have seven years experience and four years of teaching behind me. To equate experince level with proximity to graduation is just a poor comparison. If you want to see what a recent grad can do, have a look at KDLab. They were featured at Sigraph one year after graduating. I dont think anyone will argue that those two fellows are near the top of the game.

 

Rich: I thought you might like that