Client Has Asked For Model - What To Do?

[maxgooday]

Hi People,

 

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the client asking for the 3D model of a scene once its been modeled and furnished?

 

Its a large scale model and will take around 10 days work. We have quoted for 5/6 visuals of the space but they are asking for the model as well. Do I just give it to them or charge them for it.

 

Pro's and con's????

[Arnold Sher]

Hi People,

 

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the client asking for the 3D model of a scene once its been modeled and furnished?

 

Its a large scale model and will take around 10 days work. We have quoted for 5/6 visuals of the space but they are asking for the model as well. Do I just give it to them or charge them for it.

 

Pro's and con's????

 

The never ending question...::)) The simple answer is "NO". It's not something that is available to the clients. Basically what they are saying to you is that they are cheap and from now on they are taking from where you've finished of and your services are no longer required. Sure they will tell you all kinds of good stories about them needing the model for this that and what not but basically they are just cutting out the middle man ie.you! Do you phone your BMW dealership and ask them for blue prints to 3 series. No... Although i would love to hear your advice. All our clients know our stance on it and this is never a negotiation cause it is under our contract. The model always remains the property of the studio and is never distributed for any reason. Period.

[neil poppleton]

What next send him your pc......

 

But in reality he his paying for image files / images not your assets.

 

If he wants to purchase your model then thats different.

[Stephen Thomas]

These threads always seem to assume the client has some ulterior motives for making the request. It seems in this case that the client is being quite upfront about it as modelling hasn't even started yet. Perhaps they simply want it for design development or to share with their consultants (engineers, QS). We are modellers after all, so what is wrong with selling our modelling skills as well as our rendering skills? The key word there being SELL, of course.

[M V]

There was a long and concise forum post about this not long ago, you may have to look for it. To sum up what came of that last discussion...

 

1. Always have a clause in your contract that there is an addition fee for the model file

 

2. If you must give it up, give them the model stripped of all materials, stock models, and render settings - tell the client you are not allowed to include these textures based on your user agreement with the provider of those resources.

 

3. If you give them the model file and never hear from them again, then you are better off.

[maxgooday]

Thanks for your advise on the matter! It's always a tricky situation telling the client 'no you can't have the model' or 'you can only have it if you're willing to pay for it'.

 

The client did say; 'Well we're paying for the visuals so we shouldn't have to pay for the model as well. It's like paying twice for something'...... Grrrr

[M V]

If they are going to beat you up about it, take out your stock models, blow the thing up into a textureless, settingsless file and give them that. I think one trick is to export as an OBJ with no textures and import back in. Here's your model! Legally, you cannot give them those textures and models you have purchased. The licensing doesn't allow it.

[M V]

Chances are they will open your file and be totally lost anyhow. Why would they hire you in the first place if they knew their way around? I bet they are thinking that they can pay of you for 1 rendering, get the model and render 10 other views on their own. They don't get what goes into the process and post process.

 

Like I said, give them the model but stripped of anything that would have a copyright on it.

[maxgooday]

So stripping out the model will be fine - just a clay material applied to the base model and no furniture or textures! Now for a price, am I looking at 50-75% of the total being invoiced?

[Devin Johnston]

I just had this happen a few weeks ago, I gave them a stripped out model and I collapsed the entire model into a single mesh. I figured if they were going to use it to do renderings I might as well make it as hard as possible to work with. Had they asked for the full model with everything in it I would have said no, there's no amount of money worth giving away your setup.

[M V]

Um, no. You invoice 100%. I hope you had a contract. If not, they might resist paying you. I always make sure the deliverable is clear. JPEGs - unless other format is discussed beforehand.

[Scott Schroeder]

Um, no. You invoice 100%. I hope you had a contract. If not, they might resist paying you. I always make sure the deliverable is clear. JPEGs - unless other format is discussed beforehand.

 

Yep, you may now be forced to give them your entire model if you didn't have it in your contract that you would provide them with a stripped out version if requested. Your contract is the ABSOLUTE word and anything not in it is subjected to interpretation.

[komyali]

The never ending question...::)) The simple answer is "NO". It's not something that is available to the clients. Basically what they are saying to you is that they are cheap and from now on they are taking from where you've finished of and your services are no longer required. Sure they will tell you all kinds of good stories about them needing the model for this that and what not but basically they are just cutting out the middle man ie.you! Do you phone your BMW dealership and ask them for blue prints to 3 series. No... Although i would love to hear your advice. All our clients know our stance on it and this is never a negotiation cause it is under our contract. The model always remains the property of the studio and is never distributed for any reason. Period.

LIKE!

But if we sell it what price will it be ?

[heni30]

Looking at it from the architect's point of view, there's a couple of things to consider.

 

A. The model has no value to you. It was done for the renderings, it's done and it will just sit there in your job folder.

B. The model, stripped of lighting, settings and materials can be given to him as a freebie. It's really no loss to you. You said you did/will do half a dozen views so it seems like the only thing they would do with bare geometry is further design development. If they asked you to do one view of a large project and wanted a set up model - then I would be wary.

C. The model with complete set up should never be given away, unless the price is right. It's your proprietary work method that you have spent time on and developed.

 

I had a British car mechanic who would come to work on my Triumph TR-6. His rates were:

 

* $60/ hr to work on the car

* $80/ hr if you watched

* $100/hr if you helped

 

I found someone online whose style I liked so I contacted him and asked if I could buy some of his set up models. We agreed on a price and he sent me all the files. For me it was worth it to bypass all the time spent on hit or miss tutorials and just get the specific knowledge I wanted right away.

 

This is the value that your set up models have. You decide how much that value is, if you want to share it at all.

[sukardiismail]

 

I had a British car mechanic who would come to work on my Triumph TR-6. His rates were:

 

* $60/ hr to work on the car

* $80/ hr if you watched

* $100/hr if you helped

 

Love this. I think I'll slip those in my future quotations...

[Devin Johnston]

I found someone online whose style I liked so I contacted him and asked if I could buy some of his set up models. We agreed on a price and he sent me all the files.

 

I'm curious George what did it cost you to buy this guy's stuff?

[Umesh Raut]

The client did say; 'Well we're paying for the visuals so we shouldn't have to pay for the model as well. It's like paying twice for something'...... Grrrr

They will demand the contracted photographer's expensive camera once he has finished shooting for them, or better still, the beautiful models who posed for their video..........yeah, that's how the world should be in their thoughts.

[M V]

I would also recommend having a clause in contract that states that all models, textures, and components remain property of XYZ Rendering Company and may be used for self promotion or other artworks unless otherwise agreed upon with the client. If I model a bed or sofa, you better damn believe that becomes my property to use in other renderings. If a client has me model a custom piece and they want to own the rights to it, then the pricing changes.

 

It's no different than how Getty Images structures their rights-managed pricing. If I use the image in a small brochure it costs $XX but if I put the thing on national tv, is $XXXX.

 

If you want a flat 2D JPEG of a corner of a room, it will cost you $XXX. If you want the fully rigged 3D model file that you can use to render 50 images from, then that will cost you $XXXX.

 

If a client is up front and honest with me initially and they say they want the model, then no problem. But if they come in after the work is done and demand it, then I just take that a little bit shady. Especially if they are a client that has contracted rendering work before.

[harryhirsch]

I agree with Stephen Thomas on this one, i mean you guys assume and think a lot...just ask them why they need the model. In the firms that i worked for in the past we always got the model, the put it on file, yes, sometimes to keep it on file, sometimes clients/ developers ask for the model to show it to the government or investors. They have architects too and they are not lost in a 3DMaxscene. Just cut out the light settings n materials etc. and thats it. The client payes for all that it is in the contract. If one has lots of clients you simply can say no, but if one is interested in future business with that client...why not???

[Rich O]

I'd happily give a client one of my scene files. Unless they have Maya + V-ray, they're not going to be able to use it for much.

 

And anyone with Maya is going to be a 3D artist anyway and wouldn't have needed me in the first place.

[Scott Schroeder]

I'd happily give a client one of my scene files. Unless they have Maya + V-ray, they're not going to be able to use it for much.

 

And anyone with Maya is going to be a 3D artist anyway and wouldn't have needed me in the first place.

 

Until they ask you for a Max/Other Software compatible version, so now you're stuck with giving them your scene anyways that they can use. Just because you use Maya doesn't mean giving them your files for free is a good business practice. FBX does a pretty good job of preserving your scene as is when going from Maya to Max, so you aren't protected by the Maya barrier. If you can't give them a file, now you have a whole bigger fish to fry as now they may come at you and refuse to pay or they go "Thanks" and never hire you again because you are part of the less than 1% of the industry that uses Maya.

 

Most of my clients have a copy of Max, but that doesn't make them artists. They come to me because I can provide a skill that they do not posses or is at their level required for a particular project. A very frequent client of mine does 95% of their renders in house, but contracts me for the high end 5% that really need to make an impact. Would I give them my files so they can figure it out? Heck no! If they want the file, it is going to cost them about a years worth of jobs just in case they never come back. All the hours I've spent creating custom textures, either in the past or for the current job? Gotta charge them for that too. You want my complete file, you are going to pay well above market value for it.

[Matt Sugden]

They will demand the contracted photographer's expensive camera once he has finished shooting for them, or better still, the beautiful models who posed for their video..........yeah, that's how the world should be in their thoughts.

 

Actually, it's more akin to asking for the negatives of photo shoot. Whenever someone asks me for the model (which is rare) first of all I point them to the clause in my contract which explains that it is not included in the price, and then I go on to explain the business model of almost all wedding photographers, how they may take many images from an event, but typically you have to pay for a copies of individual images and to buy the who set of negatives would have to be negotiated separately. Most people can relate to this arrangement.

[Tommy L]

If not agreed beforehand then I ask for 200% of the project fee for the job file. Then I hand over everything. Or I would if anyone had actually agreed and payed for it.

If they ask up front then I'd probably say they could have it all for free (minus any licensed stock) and then then quote 50% higher than normal.

Its all very well being self-righteous about it, but n the end the job file is not going to be much use to anyone else and this is a business. Make the client feel happy and in control.

[Peter M. Gruhn]

About a year ago I did some renderings of the NW corner of a building.

Mid-year I did some renderings of the same building, SE corner vestibule.

Just finished doing some renderings of the lobby inside from the vestibule.

 

My investment in the model paid off. I was able to offer quick and cheap turn around due to existing assets and I got paid.

 

Would you give a client a bucket of pixels and say "sure, do what you want with these pixels and tell people I made the result"? Why would you let your model get away from you yet still represent you.

 

Is the model suited to whatever purpose they will put it? Are there flaws? Did you take shortcuts or make clever hacks? Will you be hearing from the client when the building falls down because you didn't bother to model the interior shear walls correctly/at all?

 

Will the client harvest assets from your model that they think might be useful in some other project of theirs? Of course they will. Especially if they think they own the model because they bought a rendering.

 

Clients are not paying for a model, they are paying for an image and the amount of work required to create that image through whatever means the artist sees fit to use.

[Tommy L]

About a year ago I did some renderings of the NW corner of a building.

Mid-year I did some renderings of the same building, SE corner vestibule.

Just finished doing some renderings of the lobby inside from the vestibule.

 

My investment in the model paid off. I was able to offer quick and cheap turn around due to existing assets and I got paid.

 

Would you give a client a bucket of pixels and say "sure, do what you want with these pixels and tell people I made the result"? Why would you let your model get away from you yet still represent you.

 

Is the model suited to whatever purpose they will put it? Are there flaws? Did you take shortcuts or make clever hacks? Will you be hearing from the client when the building falls down because you didn't bother to model the interior shear walls correctly/at all?

 

Will the client harvest assets from your model that they think might be useful in some other project of theirs? Of course they will. Especially if they think they own the model because they bought a rendering.

 

Clients are not paying for a model, they are paying for an image and the amount of work required to create that image through whatever means the artist sees fit to use.

 

I totally agree with the notion that a client is buying an image, thats the deliverable product. But as there is a model also, it seems the creator may as well make a buck off the data. The vast majority of my projects are sat on backup drives, maybe 10% see the light of day again. The nitty gritty can be nailed down in a contract, especially the non-release of trade secrets. I think you can give a valuable asset which has intrinsic value without compromising yourself. Its a win-win if you can.