unrinoceronte Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 Hi, lately there has been many threads about internal computer components configurations, but nothing has been said about the other less "vital" accesories that also have a deep impact in our workflow. Having said that, those with good experience working on Arch Viz can perhaps comment on their preferred or desired accesories to their workstations, and give us not so experienced fellows a better understanding and good advice on what to get. MONITOR: MONITOR Configuration: (1 or 2, and which size is more appropiate) MOUSE: KEYBOARD: NAS Server: EXTRAS: (say a Printer..., 3D controller like 3D conexxion..., intuos tablet?, gadgets? special Glasses for eye health....ergonomic chair!...i mean whatever...) Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I'm using one older Dell 20" monitor (as secondary) and one newer Asus PA248 monitor (primary). I find the PA has excellent color performance for the price point, and can be used for photography etc. Mouse and keyboard: currently a Razer Taipan and a Razer Blackwidow mechanical keyboard. (That's at home. In the office I couldn't get away with a mechanical keyboard. Too loud.) By glasses do you mean those silly yellow ones? Those are for getting money from gamers, not for real work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numerobis Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) I'm using one 27" monitor, a NAC PA271W calibrated with a NEC MDSVSensor (based on a x-rite sensor) since 3 years now. I hope for some "affordable" 4K-displays with colour management next year, maybe 32"-34" - this would be a nice upgrade. As network storage i use a self configured server build with components from my old workstations with RAID1 for data and some replaceable HDDs for backup. If you want a preconfigured NAS solution i think Synology would be a good choice, but quite expensive. I still have my 5 (?) years old Logitech G5 Refresh because i can't find a good replacement. I tried the new G500s but the laser is making a very annoying noise, so i sent it back. (unbelievable that such a product is sold - and it was already a refresh of the G500 with the same problem!) Edited September 9, 2013 by numerobis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unrinoceronte Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 Yeah I meant those glasses! hehe.. so, i guess i will just go to the eye doctor and take a serious lens prescription... EXTRAS: What do you guys think about those 3D connexion "SpaceNavigator / SpacePilot / SpaceMouse" 3D mices? Are they useful on 3DMax and things regarding Arch Visualizations? MONITOR: I also have been debating about getting either two 24inch monitors or just one 27inch. What do you think makes the better option for work? (No space restrictions). I can tell you that for many years i have and i still am working with Dual 19 inch monitors, but i need to change that. Right now I have ONLY 3ds Max in the first 19inch monitor, and the Rendering frame in the second 19inch monitor, along with perhaps a web browser with a tutorial or for checking on email or researching... and also for file browsing. I know that to work in only one monitor (19inch) is a pain in the as*, but i wonder if the same applies to a Big 27 inch?, or if there is a way like to "subdivide" the whole screen in smaller fixed windows for MAX, web browser, etc... How do you manage this using only one 27inch? (two 27inch is not an option for me $$$) Regarding the monitor to be CALIBRATABLE or Not, do you guys thing is ESSENTIAL for people on ArchVis to have such type of monitors? I was thinking on spending around $300 to $350 for each 24 inch, or $700 $800 for a 27, but i will try to save more money if you think is really important to go for this better quality monitors. The NEC PA271w-bk 27-Inch that Numerobis has is currently $1130 at Amazon, and i have found the NEC Multisync P241W-BK 24" which i guess is the 24 equivalent to the 27 model from numerobis, at $505... So either a couple of those or the 27 will be a little over $1000, which is out of my budget right now, but i can start saving the extra $$ to be able to buy either in 2 or 3 months along with all the other stuff that i need to buy... For Server/storage, I am going the NAS way..I bought a small one Drive QNAP TS-110, which i will try out this or next week, but i think eventually in a few months i will upgrade to a bigger 2 or 4 drives NAS to be able to do some RAID and bigger storage for all my work files which will be accesed by my main Workstation and my upcoming 3 or 4 rendering nodes. KEYBOARD / MOUSE : For keyboard i have not made any research, but for mouse i have found the ones i mention below. By the way, the G500 as well as the Razers where also recommended to me before, but to tell you the truth i don't like that much their looks since appears to me they are "game" oriented, but it seems they are quite good nonetheless. So this is a list of Mouse that i have researched a little bit and have good reviews, and also some that have been recommended by other people. Logitech is the brand that has caught more my attention, hence i am listing more models... MOUSE OPTIONS: - Logitech Wireless Performance Mouse MX _ $71 (wireless) (it comes with BOXXTECH PCs, so i tought they might be good..., very popular at Amazon) - Logitech MX Revolution _ $110 (wireless) - Logitech M500 _ $27 (cored) (Also comes with BOXXTECH PCs, and recommended by Dimitri Tolios in an older thread...) - Logitech M510 _ $25 (wireless) (Very much recommended for its sensitivity and tracking....) - Logitech G400 _ $47 (corded) - Logitech G500 _ $50 (corded) (comes with BOXXTECH PCs, and also recommended by Dimitri. It worries me what numerobis mentioned regarding laser noise...strange..) - Logitech G700 _ $59 (wireless) - SteelSeries Kana Optical Gaming Mouse _ $47 (corded) (altough i do not like game-looking mouse, this one is subtle) - Lenovo Laser Wireless Mouse (0A36188) _ $33 (wireless) Very good ratings - Microsoft Arc Touch Mouse _ $38 (wireless) (nice looks and concept, and good 4 out of 5 stars at Amazon, but no reviews as for 3D work) - Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 _ VM4R _ $90 (corded) (very strange form, but states the following "Avoids forearm twisting for comfort and good health. The patented shape supports your hand in an upright neutral posture that generally avoids forearm twisting" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scostumatu Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I just purched the RAT 7 mouse on the weekend - oh boy is it good!!! Its much of a muchness to the general user of a pc - but for 3d work or anything that requires more precision, its spot on! And its completely customizable - pretty crazy looking mouse and its much more comfortable than it looks. very ergonomic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unrinoceronte Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 !! thats a definetely crazy looking mouse... transformer looking... It should definetely be about performance and comfort, but i can not help being biased by the looks that i prefer....hehe.. Perhaps i will give it a try as a second mouse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Is the Arc Mouse the one that you have to massage like an Apple Magic Mouse? I had a Magic Mouse on my work desktop for a while and hated it. There's no "middle click" for 3d navigation and the massaging was too sensitive for my needs in Windows. I replaced it with a humble Razer Krait from my drawer, two buttons and a scroll wheel with nice tactility - much better. Re the glasses. I could tell they were a scam when I first saw them, because they were being pushed at PAX East in a booth staffed by models in what looked like Hooters uniforms. (Rule of thumb: If it's necessary to sell your gadget with sex, that's probably because you can't sell it on the merits.) I found somebody knowledgeable and tried to engage in a discussion of the technical aspects. There were a few main selling points, paraphrased below with my commentary: -"People use yellow glasses when shooting, so they must be good for viewing things precisely." Right, because looking at a target 50 feet away in sunlight and looking at a monitor three feet away with even illumination are the same. -"Yellow tint reduces unpleasant eye strain." This is because manufacturers of the sorts of monitors gamers like turn the blue way up, because strong blue looks poppy when you see the monitor on display in a store. The correct solution is calibration, not yellow glasses to correct the blue cast. -"These glasses create a pocket of still air that keeps your eyes from drying out." So do regular glasses, and not aiming a fan at your face also works. -"The optics are coated to reduce glare." Coated optics reduce glare in the form of reflections that would otherwise be seen on the optics were they not coated. They don't reduce glare from other sources. Wearing coated glasses can't result in less glare in your field of vision than wearing no glasses. Unless we're talking about polarized glasses and sunlight glare, but that's a different situation and polarized glasses can't be used with many monitors anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitris Tolios Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Personal "peripherals": Monitors: Dell U2711 - 27" 1440p IPS as main, Dell S2209W 1080p secondary Mouse: Logitech G700 (wired on my desktop, wireless with my laptop) Keyboard: CM Trigger - Mechanical (Cherry MX Black) Storage: No NAS atm. Sugarsync + Dropbox for Cloud real time + USB external drives for bigger backup jobs. --- Thoughts on OP: Monitors: I prefer 2x monitors over a single one for productivity work. You can get pretty affordable 1080p IPS monitors (IPS is important not only for color depth - which won't be impressive with cheap 1080p / 6bit panels anyways) but most importantly imho for viewing range/color consistency depending on angle. If I would be starting from scratch I would be hard pressed to go for a single 27" 1440p. 27" 1080p don't even "exist" as an option, as I find the pixel pitch outrageously big - but that's me. More rant about 1080p 27" here: pcfoo: the Zen of Pixel-peeping I would probably opt for 2x 1200p "mid-range" (around $300-400 ea) 24" IPS monitors, or if I was on a tight budget 2x 1080p IPS. I always center myself infront of one monitor, and using the 2nd one as a reference / toolbox extension area. Mouse: something that suits you. Gaming mice are usually pretty sensitive and track well. I like logitech, and I have small experience with anything but MS bluetrack mice otherwise (actually I like the MS bluetrack tracking on 800-1000 dpi "regular" mice more than I like the logitech). Having selectable dpi is an asset for me, as I am used to pretty fine mice movements (fps gaming? I guess) and regular 800dpi mice feel pretty slow for my taste. Remember, dpi in sensor is translated to pixels on screen: a 800 dpi mouse being moved one inch (25.4 mm) to the right, will move the cursor around 800 pixels to the right. When you have a 1280p wide 19" 4:3 LCD screen or a 1366~1600p wide laptop screen, that's fine. Around 1.5~2 in movement from side to side. As screens get bigger (2560p for my 27"), it takes almost double that to get from side to side. Overtime, a 800 dpi mouse feels pretty slow. I prefer them in the 1200~1600 dpi range. Finner than 2000 dpi sensor resolution is not very usable - even for "pro" users/gamers/whatever. So the G700 i have being a "5700 dpi mouse" is a marketing gimmick. The highest of the 5 presets I can set is left at 3000 dpi, but I almost never go above 2000 actually using it. Having physical keys on the mouse switching between at least 2 settings is nice - that's again down to personal preference. The G700 can switch between 5 setings, but 2 are enough for general use. The battery life of the G700 is a joke @ high dpi / refresh rate settings, but both the 1000Hz refresh and the RATs are fancy looking, but many complain about them being unreliable (sensor ages / pulls tricks on you). Keyboard: Not very picky. I adapt to many keyboards. I like to have both Arrow Keys and numpad tho...thus small laptops with no numpad, the "hip" mechanical keyboards with either no numpad or the "tenkeyless" design (where arrow keys are combined in the lower part of the numpad = you can use either but not both at the same time) are a no-no for me when working with CAD/Sketchup etc. I got the Trigger with Black keys as it was on sale for $60. Didn't want to spent more, as much as I would fancy a board with MX Browns. Before that, I had a $10 Logitech K120 and a $10 (staples, open box) K360 wireless. Totally different animals, liked them both for the price. 3D Connexion: always liked the idea, used them a few (never owned one, but friends had them since mid 2000s). Personally I do type a lot of shortcuts with my left hand, so I think I lose more time leaving the navigator to type and then rest my hand on the navigator again, than just using my middle mouse button and shift/alt etc modifiers to pan/orbit and zoom with my wheel. Maybe the higher end navigators with multiple programmable shortcut buttons could be adapted to my needs, but those are pricey and I am not willing to pay for that "experiment" Fatique glasses: I wear glasses with all the stupid coatings already, but it sounds scammy. As explained already, you cannot reduce glare with clear glasses and the light levels produced by a screen. The only thing that coatings effectively reduce is the reflections of light sources in the glass itself. Something pretty valuable when you are forced to wear glasses in order to correct your vision as I am, but silly if you don't, as the glass doesn't need to be there for the coating to reduce the reflections on it...doh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numerobis Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Regarding the monitor to be CALIBRATABLE or Not, do you guys thing is ESSENTIAL for people on ArchVis to have such type of monitors? I was thinking on spending around $300 to $350 for each 24 inch, or $700 $800 for a 27, but i will try to save more money if you think is really important to go for this better quality monitors. The NEC PA271w-bk 27-Inch that Numerobis has is currently $1130 at Amazon, and i have found the NEC Multisync P241W-BK 24" which i guess is the 24 equivalent to the 27 model from numerobis, at $505... So either a couple of those or the 27 will be a little over $1000, which is out of my budget right now, but i can start saving the extra $$ to be able to buy either in 2 or 3 months along with all the other stuff that i need to buy... I have to add some points regarding the NEC display... After 3 years of usage my PA271W now got panel problems and had to be replaced. Fortunately it was only 3 days after expiration of the warranty and they accepted to replace it with another display. BUT ONLY WITH A USED AND REFURBISHED ONE with no new warranty! Ok, i had no choice and accepted the "new" one hoping that this one will last longer, since i have no warranty anymore. (The replacement already has run 4500 hours - my panel got problems after ~6000h ). It looks ok now, but for how long?! Second point: the replacement came in with some scratches on the base, which my monitor difinately not had! I complained but they said i have to accept it - after 3 years and their merciful act of replacement... So i have to say that i'm not sure, if i would buy another NEC display again! The price was good and the display too - for the first three years... The replacement service was ok, until i got the replacement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 You got a working monitor as a replacement for a three year old one that broke after the warranty expired and you'recomplaining? Because they replaced a 3 year old item with one that was not new? If NEC were not a good vendor they would have said "Sorry, your warranty is expired, here is the URL of the approved vendor list so you can buy another one." If they were a sort of good company they'd have said "Send it to this address with a credit card number for return shipment and we'll have it repaired within 90 days." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numerobis Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) They told me that my monitor only could be replaced if it is without optical flaws - which it was (!) and now i got one with optical flaws... So you think it's normal today that a display only lives for three years? Interesting. I have a 10 years old Eizo S-PVA which is still running without a problem. And it was only 3 days after the warranty expiration... (the problem occured some weeks earlier, but i had no time to analyze it) The replacement service is part of the warranty. Edited September 17, 2013 by numerobis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I think that it's not normal, but that nonetheless as we all know a product that comes with a warranty that covers a period of time is no longer under warranty after that time. Getting a replacement even though the warranty expired, and complaining because your 3 year old monitor that was not under warranty was not replaced with a brand new one, does not seem reasonable to me. NEC provided you more service than you contracted for and should be given credit for that, not criticized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unrinoceronte Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 Well i guess both points of views are valid, in a way you had very "good luck" with their customer support if a warranty is as strict...But in the other hand that NEC monitor is VERY EXPENSIVE, and i would also expect it to have a longer Life than that.... My sister just noticed a lot of dead pixels in her 1 year old 17 inch Macbook pro...She told me about the first 3 several months ago and i told her to call inmediately for the warranty, she didnt, and last week when she noticed there where plenty more pixels she did call the LOCAL Apple Authorized Shop where she bought it , and they said, SORRY your warranty expired 4 weeks ago!......haha!.. that is so cruel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unrinoceronte Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 I overlooked some posts.. So: Andrew: a no for the Microsoft Arc Mouse, and definetely no yellow glasses... Dimitris: thanks for your detailed explanation on all the accesories. I am also inclined towards 2 x 24 inch Monitors. Looking at amazon, i have found the following 24inch IPS 1200dpi Monitors between the $320 to $530 budget range ( i did not find one of this in the $400 range) ... 24 inch IPS MONITORS (1200dpi) HP ZR24w = http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003D1ADUU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2WKNT9M479V6K&coliid=I18F7YOBV0IC2E ASUS PA248Q http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008DWH00K/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2WKNT9M479V6K&coliid=I36IG5521JH0GX Dell UltraSharp U2413 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BN2BIUK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2WKNT9M479V6K&coliid=ID6IKQKDMAE2Q NEC Multisync P241W-BK http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KYTPDO/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2WKNT9M479V6K&coliid=IIU473XXGCAD0 Lenovo ThinkVision LT2452p http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkVision-LT2452p-LED-Monitor/dp/B00CYX49DK/ref=sr_1_170?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1379458471&sr=1-170&keywords=24+ips+monitor Samsung SyncMaster S24A850DW http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SyncMaster-S24A850DW-LED-Monitor/dp/B0050X2N2K/ref=sr_1_172?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1379458471&sr=1-172&keywords=24+ips+monitor Any other toughts on NAS/SERVER solution? For a small Arch Viz Studio, with 2 or 3 people, 3 workstations, and say 4 to 6 rendering nodes, i am guessing a 4 bay NAS can perhaps be a good option? Besides COST, do you think there is an advantage of going with a SERVER instead of a QNAP or SYNOLOGY NAS? My main concern here would be PERFORMANCE, since i think the studio setup should be to not store files locally in each computer, but store the work files and Assets library only on the NAS, and each computer/node access the files through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) My input, my partner Veronika uses 3DConnection SpacePilot (for 3ds Max ). It's pretty awesome, none of us really utilize many shortcuts, so left hand is no problem. It felt like natural within 5 minutes of use to both of us. It helps you waste your time with very fluent orbiting around model/scene ! Definitely good experience. Speeds up modelling a lot. We have Synology NAS with regular 7200 server disks. Performance is of course, pure shit when you open 3GB bit scenes with 3GB of textures (mentioning extremes to get point across). It's annoying as hell and will soon upgrade to custom file server and full 10gbit cards/switch. (you can get whole network like this really cheap from refurbished parts on eBay, but even new, but older intel models are at very decent price now). I use Perfomance MX from Logitech, which is sluggier but prettier ;- ) version of G700. I never played FPS games, so to me, I don't see any problem with 1500DPI, and the battery lasts 10 times longer. And, it looks prettier. ( unless your idea of pretty is Razer mouse, Dell AlienWare, CoolerMaster Cases, than I guess not ) Edited September 18, 2013 by RyderSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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