Outsourcing for the far east?

[Chog Burley]

Hi there,

 

Bit of a controversial topic (possibly) but has anyone had any success outsourcing modelling work to India or China? I hear lots of chat about it but few people who have actual experience of it.

 

Currently using local freelancers which works well but exploring other options for when things are crazy busy.

 

Thanks!

 

ps. please don't promote your own services here. i'm after feedaback and recomendations, not self promotion.

[Stephen Thomas]

Yes, I've outsourced modelling work for a freelance job to China as it was a fairly standard job and I didn't fancy doing the modelling work to be honest! I used Diamond since I had experience of using them in my previous office. Always been happy with the quality and price. Sometimes a bit of back and forth over details but generally fine. Just be clear over what you want in regards to basic materials, layers etc. http://www.abddba.com/abddba/index.asp

[heni30]

Yes, we had a large project requiring 40 renderings. Used a Chinese firm. Quality was great, quick turn-arounds. Price was 50-60% of our pricing.

Hic-ups with communication. If something wasn't done correctly it might take a couple of goings back and forth to get it right.

 

Ideal would be if you had a Chinese employee. I had my neighbor, a Chinese college professor, call them a couple of times and she was very impressed - said it seemed like they were extremely well educated and professional. Let me know if you'd like their contact info and samples of the work they did for us (anyone can have a fancy portfolio).

Edited November 1, 2013 by heni30

[Chog Burley]

Thanks for the feedback guys, sounds good.

 

George - who did you use in China?

[heni30]

I just emailed him that he has a typo - he's a Partner - not a Panter.

Met Tang

 

Manager Panter

Helixscape Visualization Studio

Building A, Room204 No.26, Baita East Road SuZhou,China. 215000

TEL：+86-512 6728 7228 Web: www.helixscape.hk

Edited November 1, 2013 by heni30

[Chog Burley]

thanks George, not worked with a Panter before. first time for eveything ...

[heni30]

Please mention my name if you contact him.

 

My daughter's BFF's dad is a partner in one of the larger architectural firms in the US. He's the one who gave me the lead. They were using them for large high-end projects so they can pretty much handle anything.

 

So..........

 

He is really a partner.

or he's a Panther in the Chinese astrological calender and msp,

or he's a cross-country running enthusiast

Edited November 1, 2013 by heni30

[CliveG]

Or he has unusual taste in under garments...

[Chog Burley]

will do. thanks!

 

Please mention my name if you contact him.

 

My daughter's BFF's dad is a partner in one of the larger architectural firms in the US. He's the one who gave me the lead. They were using them for large high-end projects so they can pretty much handle anything.

 

So..........

 

He is really a partner.

or he's a Panther in the Chinese astrological calender and msp,

or he's a cross-country running enthusiast

[Francisco Penaloza]

Not to get controversial here, but, Why giving up on your local freelancer so fast?

We all been complaining for years with unfair prices competitions from overseas, but when it is your turn to make extra money, that's the first option that you choose?

I understand we are all struggling with this economy, but where I work now, they have the opportunity to work with foreign companies too, but they decided to deal with an local professional, thanks to that I have a job now and work if fine for them and me.

If it is possible do not give up in your local professionals, it really help us all.

 

My two cents

[Chog Burley]

Hey Francisco,

 

I hear what you're saying and I'm not giving up on my local freelancers. As I said in my post I'm "exploring other options for when things are crazy busy" ... i.e. for when I'm already using all the freelancers I know of, so it's certainly not my first choice.

 

I too am a local professional and have lost out on jobs going to China - I guess the reality is that to be competitive on bigger projects you need to have some fairly cheap modelling power at your disposal be it local or not.

[heni30]

The reason we used them, even more than for cost, was manpower. They have a lot of people to begin with and they also network with other studios. So if we were behind because of information lags (which was always the case) they could do the renderings at the last minute. They could provide us with all the renderings we needed in 5 days whether it was 1 rendering or 10. If need be they could have a rendering in 2 days. There is no such thing as "you're going to have to wait because we're backed up".

Edited November 2, 2013 by heni30

[avenjames]

Most of my client they have their in-house visualization team, but some time they will output their project to other visualization company, for that you will find they run their business in crazy busy, or a huge project that they don't have enough manpower for solve.

 

As a rendering provider, I recommend my client that they could try to do the rendering by self, but unfortunately not everybody they know how to do the fine work or how to finish the huge project, so my company will provide them the pro tech support on this part. For that we are in China, so the price is low and the quality is also perfect, if you need the rendering, don't be hesitate to contact me.

[ericgu]

We are arch visualization firm in U.S. I sent some work out to China when we are really busy. The quality is good, not excellent though. But the price is really half of the average here. They do it very fast. But you have to make several back and forth with them cuz they can not fix a problem within one turnaround. These guys are crazy, they work 24 hours. But as my own experience, it is a smart way to outsource some work when you are really busy, we do that all the time. Because sometimes the clients don't really push for a "nice" rendering, for some design firms, they just basically wanna their design has a correct expression in the image you made. And fast.

[RyderSK]

It's pretty interesting people outsource their busy work, because technically that's no longer outsourcing, that's basically building another level of delegating work ;- ) Outsourcing would be modelling job,etc, basically, anything that is not core of the bussiness. Creating full visuals..on other hand..is.

 

I would hardly justify asking my prices to clients if I wasn't anyhow involved in creating the work for them. They found me based on my company's portfolio, just so I could take their money and send it to chinese sweatshop to create ? If I don't have time, I wish them nice day and that's it (which is what I say to 95perc. of clients and I don't sleep badly because of "loosing possible money").

 

On other hand, if maximum profit based on quantity is what is strived for, why not build up larger team at home ? What's the point of this delegating futher ? It's really not "outsourcing" in proper sense.

 

Oi, reminds me of this epic american guy, outsourcing his all work and watching Facebook allday :- D Rightful hero though = )

 

[ericgu]

Well, if to be a pure artist or designer, I will not sell any image without my 100% work. But for business, we are selling service through a built platform. The designers in China get a better pay than they do their work for Chinese firms. My clients get the image they like. Why not? You may ask what did I do? I get paid because I succeed in branding, management and resource. That's business. And we would like to build this platform even larger. Sharing resource is the most efficient way. We don't watch cat videos, actually we are searching for cats.

And anyway, it is better than that my clients pay more for a bad image.

[RyderSK]

I have no qualms with art vs bussiness.

 

But I find the whole thing very shady, and arguing that Chinese get better pay this way is very odd way of seeing things. Client might like what he received, but he was nevertheless cheated to certain extent.

 

It's very different model to agency scenario, where they seek out professional to help out on the task that is fully art-directed and under direction of the mother agency, and to delegate task that was agreed to be done primarily by you.

Edited November 12, 2013 by RyderSK

[CliveG]

All fine as long as Eric doesn't complain when those same Chinese (or Indian... who with English as their business language don't have the communication issues of Chinese firms) come into his market and undercut their prices.

 

Juraj will still have his business because it's based on something a bit more substantial than just acting as a middleman.

 

It would seem that Eric's business model isn't for the long term unless he starts adding value!

 

In my humble opinion of course...

[RyderSK]

Well..I don't want to be personal here.. (though kind of thanks for compliment )

 

Anyway, it's pretty ironic when on one hand all sorts of bussinesses complain how cheap 3rd world undercuts them or take jobs away, on other hand other continue to use them their own benefit, which is just fine. You got a point there ;- )

[heni30]

There is a middle road. When we did that large project, the Chinese firm did all the rendering and I did all the post work. The rendering part was art directed by me. By doing all the PS work I could ensure that there was a continuity with lighting effects, color profiles and entourage.

 

The final products did have our "signature look" and I don't feel the client was cheated. And in the art world some artists just hire assistants and direct them to do the hands on work. Is this cheating? An extreme example is the movie "Banksy" where the other guy (not B) hires an small army to produce pieces.

 

The ONLY reason we did it is because of the scope and timeline of the project. And it was a one-time, unusual situation.

Edited November 13, 2013 by heni30

[RyderSK]

In your analogy Banksy would have to ask them to create something instead of him to get on this level. What he does, is merely outsourcing manual work. His core business is unaffected, he still provided the idea for the work.

 

I currently work with 2 modelers to help on, and would gladly work with someone who can materialize,etc..but haven't found someone yet, but I would never find someone to just make the project instead of me. Giving out full project to Chinese company is basicly loosing all your direction and input apart from maybe some corrections (which most people even write how problematic are in this case) over the work. It's no longer anywhow associated with you, you become middleman, and that is not outsourcing. There's big difference in these situations.

[CliveG]

I guess the point is if you are merely acting as a conduit, you should probably have a plan B too as it's not really a long term proposition.

 

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with running a business that outsources to any "low wage" country and sell the product into a higher wage market. BUT.... at some point those companies you outsource to are going to figure how to make contacts in your market. If they can produce reasonable visuals they can also produce a web-site.

 

I don't want to sound too pious here, because I have tried to outsource too. Almost without exception though for me, it has proven questionable at best because - invariably I have said "I can't put my name to that...." and had to redo large chunks of the work obviously losing any financial or time saving advantage I may have gained had I just said instead, "sod it.... my client isn't pushing me for quality".

 

I guess my original comment was more as to whose shoe's I'd rather be in!

[RyderSK]

The problem I try to pinpoint comes down to client's awareness. When clients contact purely Agency type company, they're being aware the work will be done by someone the agency will find. The Agency never creates this work, so what they're selling and marketing is someone's else work. The client is fully aware of this fact.

 

When client contact regular bussiness, that bussiness has attracted him with their own, in-house produced works but instead, will sell him work of someone else. And now I am being very doubtful they will make this clear with the client. I am actually pretty sure they pretend the work is done purely by them, like the rest of "regular" work.

 

It's just very cheap way of making money.

 

I have moral problem with this (but not that it bothers my heart, just that I find it oddly amusing, they're not my clients).

[CliveG]

I have moral problem with this (but not that it bothers my heart, just that I find it oddly amusing, they're not my clients).

 

I have a problem with the idea that clients have to "push" their contractor (us) for quality.

 

I get up in the morning hoping to achieve some quality in everything I do that day.... otherwise there's little point in getting up!

[ericgu]

Actually we are not just like what George described as they do the rendering and we do the post. We share resource. The team work is like we provide the instruction for lighting/materials/ anything, what they can provide is the other half day work when we are sleeping. Man is not a machine, but two men can works as a machine. That's the resource sharing. Also, to be honest, modeling is all the same all over the world, there is no difference between a "Chinese model" and a "U.S model". We save budget in this way also for our clients. And we are totally team relationship with designers in China, we never pretend to be an architecture firm. They are more like part-time freelancers, the only difference is it is oversea and the difference between Dollars and Yuan.

 

So I will not call it "delegate".

 

Also our portfolio shown to our clients includes all the teamwork(work with companies in China) samples. It's just that we don't tell our clients we have a team in China. But I guess it is not necessary to mention, nobody cares that. So I will not call it "cheat".

 

Think about architecture firms, Rem Koolhaas reviews all the projects out of OMA, it doesn't necessarily mean that he draws every line. I will not personalize a firm although most of the visualization studio is actually in small size. The success of us more depends on the operation and management of a firm.