Colour differences between different programs. Help needed.

[Dave Buckley]

I feel like I've asked this question before, however, I'm getting quite noticeable colour shifts between programs.

 

I started to make a texture in Photoshop (my profile is normally Adobe RGB).

 

The problem with this is that it never looks the same in 3DS Max's bitmap viewer in the Material Editor. If I change the profile of the texture in Photoshop to sRGB, it looks much closer, but again it's still slightly different (see attachment).

 

Then the problem occurs again when I render, it looks different in the VFB, although i do expect this to be a little bit different due to lights, reflections and colour bleeding.

 

The final twist is then opening the saved image in Photoshop, it differs again.

 

I'm currently playing around with ICC Profiles in the VFB to see if this helps. I was hoping that if I load the Adobe RGB profile from PS into the VFB, then what I see in the VFB would be what I see when I load the render into PS with the same Adobe RGB profile assigned. But again it seems to be different.

 

I'd love to know if anyone has a seamless workflow where all colours are consistent. Otherwise I don't see the point in using Adobe RGB as I'm constantly looking at an sRGB reference the whole time i'm in Max.

 

Or I've massively misunderstood something. I plan on reading Jeff's Colour Management Chapter again tonight, but if anyone can clear anything up in the meantime that would be great.

 

For what it's worth, I'm using a HP Z24X monitor that is currently using the factory profile (it's new - I haven't calibrated it yet).

 

Cheers

[Dave Buckley]

Sorry I forgot to add the screengrab, it's also worth noting that the texture in PS (Adobe RGB) has more colour than when viewed in Max's Image viewer. However, if then load the Adboe RGB profile into the VFB even more colour is sapped out of the VFB. I'd expect the extra colour to reappear when I apply the profile to the VFB.

 

Anyway here's the screengrab. The colour difference shown here is with sRGB profile on the image in PS, the colour difference is even greater with Adobe RGB.

 

[Jeff Mottle]

Hey Dave,

 

The reason you're seeing the shift is that 3ds Max on its own is not color managed, while Photoshop is. I spoke with Vlado when I was in Bulgaria before 3.0 came out and spoke to him about color management and thankfully he adopted support for LUT, ICC and OpenColor IO. One of the only rendering apps to do this.

 

The part you are missing is the VRayICC Utility node (http://docs.chaosgroup.com/display/VRAY3/VRayICC#VRayICC-VRayICCOverview) which will color manage the textures as well. So you need this and the VFB.

 

Your display has 99% of AdobeRGB, so it should be similar to AdobeRGB in its gamut, however it's not identical. Also without having your display profiled and calibrated, you can't use any of the ICC features in V-Ray as all of them are dependant on a display ICC being loaded into the OS. It's likely using some system monitor default which will really screw things up, so you have to buy a color monki or an Xrite Display colorimeter first. Don't buy the Spyder stuff. It's crap.

 

I've not had a chance to really test out the new 3.0 features, so curious to see how it goes on your end.

[Dave Buckley]

Awesome cheers Jeff, I'm calibrating with the Xrite i1 Display Pro tomorrow so will report back then, cheers for the input. Had a feeling it would be down to the monitor too. At the minute it's using the native profile. Although it doesn't give me options for sRGB and Adobe RGB profile.

 

However, I'm thinking a custom profile would be better.

[Dave Buckley]

Yeh I definately need to try this after calibrating.

 

I've just added that node into the diffuse map and the colour difference now is huge. It makes the texture much darker/saturated.

 

So in the screenshot now, what you're seeing is.

 

Photoshop - Original Texture (Adobe RGB)

Material Editor - Texture in VRay ICC Node (Adobe RGB (from PS) loaded

VFB (in the background) - Adobe RGB (from PS) loaded

 

To get the Adobe RGB profile, I simply saved it out of Photoshop via the Colour Settings dialogue box.

 

[Jeff Mottle]

Absolutely, default manufacture profiles for displays are useless as they are not even close to accurate. Displays vary far too much between units (even between two identical displays that came off the line side by side). Also, because your textures were likely created in in an sRGB environment, you will need to assign sRGB to the texture. If you correct them yourself in Photoshop while using an AdobeRGB working space, and save if out with an AdobeRGB profile embedded, you would then use the AdobeRB profile in the ICC node.

 

Worth noting is that if you opt to work in AdobeRGB as your working space, and you use a lot of off the shelf textures or textures that were created before wide gamut displays, they are all going to become more saturated when you work with them and depending on the color, shift as well. You either have to correct this with a color adjustment node in 3ds Max or in Photoshop before you use them.

 

The other option is to work in an old school sRGB environemnt for everything. To do this, you could switch your display to it's sRGB mode from the on screen menu. This will clamp the display colors to an uncalibrated sRGB gamut. Then you would profile and calibrate the display. in 3ds Max and Photoshop you would use the sRGB everywhere (assuming the textures were created in sRGB). This would be the method to work as you likely did 5+ years ago, however completely negates the ability of your display to output a much richer gamut of color.

 

Other things to consider by going back to an sRGB workflow is that your clients have all likely moved to wide gamut displays (they don't make any other kind now), so if they view your sRGB image on their wide gamut display it's going to be very saturated. They also are unlikely to have sRGB presents on their display.

 

There are quite a few more variables in play, but this should get you headed in the right direction for now I hope.

[Jeff Mottle]

Yeh I definately need to try this after calibrating.

 

I've just added that node into the diffuse map and the colour difference now is huge. It makes the texture much darker/saturated.

 

That seems like it could potentially be a gamma issue, but not sure. Without calibrating your display (2.2) hard to rule that out. I would be curious to see your Photoshop color management settings and also the dialog box when you saved the texture out.

[Dave Buckley]

Yep, as I thought. I tend to load textures into PS, convert to Adobe RGB, adjust colours to suit and save as Adobe RGB, so really all I'm missing is the calibration of the monitor. I'll run some further tests tomorrow once calibrated and post the results.

[Jeff Mottle]

I hope you have not been saving textures into AdobeRGB for long without a calibrated display otherwise, you now have a bunch of junk textures you are going to have to redo all over again.

[Dave Buckley]

Here are those dialogue boxes.

[Dave Buckley]

No i've only just got the new monitor, hence why I've only just spotted the difference today.

[Jeff Mottle]

Ok, those Photoshop settings look ok, so get the display profiled and report back with screenshots tomorrow. Really want to see how well this works now. I fought for most of my career for these settings to be implemented, so glad they are finally here. Sadly I left production long ago.

[Dave Buckley]

It drives me mad too, I'm hoping to implement these settings studio wide too. My images look different on every single monitor in the studio at the minute. So god knows how it looks when the client opens it

[RyderSK]

 

 

 

Other things to consider by going back to an sRGB workflow is that your clients have all likely moved to wide gamut displays (they don't make any other kind now), so if they view your sRGB image on their wide gamut display it's going to be very saturated. They also are unlikely to have sRGB presents on their display.

 

 

This statement seems odd. Widegamut displays are in my opinion still huge minority on the market, only small subset of IPS/IGZO panels have widegamut (only those with GB-LED as opposed to white-led backlit or older ccfl)

 

I use widegamut display (Dell3014) is sRGB emulation all the time, it's nearly perfect these days. Doing otherwise would be pain in ass, all my clients watch images either on calculators or "semi-highend" displays like Apple Cinema, which are again just regular white-led IPS panels with sRGB only option.

 

Even in sRGB mode, working with 3dsMax is painful regarding color management, as there are so many steps where a shift does/can offer (though only seemingly), from linearizing the texture internally by engine, to framebuffer, than opening it again in post. I do save my textures without color profile (by default they will be read as sRGB nonetheless by most engines but it again depends, Vray uses sRGB spectrum, but many others, including Corona, use wide gamut (not AdobeRGB directly), while others are spectral and will do their own conversion).

 

But then I maintain full sRGB pipeline all the way, down to saving it into final images for client. I do give them separately 16bit tiffs without color profile if they intend to print it in serious fashion, but most images these days go only to internet, and 99perc. of users (or content viewers) have sRGB (and badly calibrated at that), so I have my public in mind with that.

 

Vray framebuffer does read LUTs and ICCs (it's super hidden as drop-down menu under sRGB button...), but I've learned to live with the fact that what matters is what I'll open in Photoshop/AE so I rarely use it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by RyderSK

[Jeff Mottle]

This statement seems odd. Widegamut displays are in my opinion still huge minority on the market, only small subset of IPS/IGZO panels have widegamut (only those with GB-LED as opposed to white-led backlit or older ccfl)

 

I use widegamut display (Dell3014) is sRGB emulation all the time, it's nearly perfect these days. Doing otherwise would be pain in ass, all my clients watch images either on calculators or "semi-highend" displays like Apple Cinema, which are again just regular white-led IPS panels with sRGB only option.

 

All depends what your clients have. Even cheap displays can have wide gamut and the Apple Cinema displays have a gamut that is slightly larger than sRGB so it could potentially affect color depending on the image. And any displays I've see that are wide gamut, do not default to sRGB if they even had that option.

[RyderSK]

What are the cheap displays with support of AdobeRGB ? Even in CCFL era (which is now almost gone), only small part of professional grade displays supported it. But since you need GB-LED backlight which only few expensive panels have right now, you physically can't support wide gamut, so vast majority of display don't have it.

 

Apple Cinema (27) is very regular LM270WQ1 panel from LG, same as Dell2711, it even uses the same white-led backlight. Not even the sRGB coverage is great, but still good. The old Apple Cinema 30" was ccfl, so naturally it had better sRGB coverage (maybe slightly more,yes), but it still wasn't wide gamut ccfl. Both are very outdated by now though.

 

Hardware sRGB emulation used to be quite poor, but based on recent TFT reviews, it's now literally the same thing.

 

I feel like you might be over-estimating the amount of people with high-end displays like Eizo/Nec (or the top upper range from regular brands like Dell and HP), I feel like they are small minority even among architects (you might just mingle among far too professional community :- )..] Most people not directly involved with graphics, will buy rather stylish media panels even when going to spend lot of money, like the new 5k LG panels in Dell and Apple, or the new 21:9 3.5k panels, etc.. with gimmicks like improved latency, high-frequency panels. High-end wide-gamut panels will stay sharp minority for next 5 years at least in my opinion.

Edited October 29, 2014 by RyderSK

[Dave Buckley]

Quick question. Where can I find out which profile my monitor is currently using? I've just calibrated, but I think I may have just altered something in the monitors in-built menu system. I just want to check it's still reading the new profile.

[Dave Buckley]

Also just to let you know, the Max Image viewer and the texture in Photoshop (Adobe RGB) are now pretty close in terms of colour now.

 

If I then load the texture through the ICC node, it still goes really dark (see screenshot - image in PS is Adboe RGB - Image on the left in Max, is the same texture being viewed through the ICC node with Adboe RGB profile loaded) so I'm not sure I actually need that ICC node as I'm not too sure what it's doing and whether it's working properly.

[Stephen Thomas]

Quick question. Where can I find out which profile my monitor is currently using? I've just calibrated, but I think I may have just altered something in the monitors in-built menu system. I just want to check it's still reading the new profile.

 

Control Panel>Color Management should show you what the default profile is.

[RyderSK]

Hi Dave,

 

Control panel will show you what Windows is using. Did you calibrate your HP using DreamColor Solution and created custom color space ? Or did you just adjust existing regime ?

 

Anyway, Vray ICC with load the full ICC profile, that is also gamma. You already load your bitmap with gamma (2.2), but that the ICC will also.

I tried super quickly to load texture linearly (gamma override 1.0) and everything looked correct then. Or you can just convert all bitmaps to VrayHDRi maps and then use script to adjust gamma for all of them and input them into ICC.

 

But unless you're correcting all textures by yourself this seems like quite redundant workflow.

[Jeff Mottle]

Also just to let you know, the Max Image viewer and the texture in Photoshop (Adobe RGB) are now pretty close in terms of colour now.

 

If I then load the texture through the ICC node, it still goes really dark (see screenshot - image in PS is Adboe RGB - Image on the left in Max, is the same texture being viewed through the ICC node with Adboe RGB profile loaded) so I'm not sure I actually need that ICC node as I'm not too sure what it's doing and whether it's working properly.

 

Hmm, You do have to use the VRayICC node otherwise V-Ray's color management will not know how to convert colors from it's assigned color space into the working space of the VFB. I'm leaning towards a a gamma issue somewhere.

[Jeff Mottle]

Hi Dave,

 

Control panel will show you what Windows is using. Did you calibrate your HP using DreamColor Solution and created custom color space ? Or did you just adjust existing regime ?

 

Good grief, I really wish manufacturers and Microsoft would stop trying to develop their own color management systems and standards. There have been standards established by the ICC for over 20 years, but they like to think they can make systems that just talk between their own hardware and software that is going to be better. Uggg. Suffice it to say, DON'T work in a custom working space and definitely NEVER assign a custom profile to an image or texture.

[Dave Buckley]

Ok so I calibrated using my i1Display Pro. That profile was also created by manually adjusting RGB levels to achieve the required targets, in correlation with the i1Profiler software.

 

I'm assuming it is the gamma issue, so will try what Juraj has suggested and bringing in the custom textures with a gamma of 1.

 

With regards the textures, they have been opened in PS, converted to Adobe RGB (as that is my standard colour space in PS), they are then edited as required and saved with the Adobe RGB profile. I wouldn't say it's redundant, the client might not appreciate the full colour spectrum of them, but at least I will when I view them

 

I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting the most out of my images. The difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB seems quite drastic, so why limit the colours I can use if i don't need too? I guess I can always convert back to sRGB to see what the client sees (assuming they're not seeing the same as me already.)

[RyderSK]

You don't need to create 'custom' textures, unless I understand you wrong what you meant.

 

You simply assign to VrayICC the profile that you otherwise have as working space in Photoshop but also your Display. This will let you see everything aligned and correct, but that doesn't mean you have to adjust your textures anyhow.

 

1)Set monitor to AdobeRGB, calibrate that regime (I presume this is what you have done and where you are right now).

2)When creating texture, you can either omit (this is best, because your textures might get used/viewed regardless of color management setup by anyone else) color profile or assign AdobeRGB. You don't have to, because you will assign it in Vray.

3)Load any texture in linear space, with gamma override 1.0 (or, simply using VrayHDRi loader) as base texture plugged into VrayICC node with color profile of AdobeRGB.

4)Render without baking gamma (either 1) None, or 2)Color mapping only).

5)Instead of clicking on sRGB button in framebuffer, dragdown and select ICC. On right panel "Color correction" scroll down to ICC tab, open and load AdobeRGB ICC.

 

Done.

 

Regarding your clients and how you and them see it, I find that strange choice. Unless you know they will watch it on widegamut monitor, they will see it incorrectly just so you can see it better ?

[RyderSK]

Good grief, I really wish manufacturers and Microsoft would stop trying to develop their own color management systems and standards. There have been standards established by the ICC for over 20 years, but they like to think they can make systems that just talk between their own hardware and software that is going to be better. Uggg. Suffice it to say, DON'T work in a custom working space and definitely NEVER assign a custom profile to an image or texture.

 

Absolutely agree with this.

 

But what I meant by custom profile was simply calibrating option, where you can keep your monitor default intact, and simply take over one or few custom slots. So instead of messing with factory profile of your display you can always default to, you will keep you calibrated profile as another one bellow them. It's non-destructive and more flexible. If the display UI allows it of course. And obviously I am talking hardware color calibration, not messing with software side, where I also suggest both to ignore windows settings and graphic driver settings.