#Brexit

[Chris MacDonald]

Hey guys,

 

Just pondering (after having many, many lengthy discussions/borderline arguments) with my close friends about the upcoming referendum on Britain leaving the EU. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on it are?

 

I personally think it's a perfect example of an idiocracy and a shining example of exactly what a representative democracy is not about. Giving people the opportunity to vote on issues that are so complex, yet affect us all so profoundly is ludicrous. I don't expect the average person to know anything about these issues, and why should I? Isn't that what we pay our politicians for?

 

That said, I absolutely will not be abstaining from voting. I'm voting to stay in, as are (thankfully) the majority of my friends.

[Andres Saarnak]

I personally think it's a perfect example of an idiocracy and a shining example of exactly what a representative democracy is not about. Giving people the opportunity to vote on issues that are so complex, yet affect us all so profoundly is ludicrous. I don't expect the average person to know anything about these issues, and why should I? Isn't that what we pay our politicians for?

I totally agree.

There should be some kind of an exam on understanding the issue, if you pass (therefore understand a problem on hand) you can vote

 

A bit off topic, but in my opinion extremists in my country (and all over Europe, really) gaining popularity is very troubling.

[Nic H]

UK must stay in the EU

(burn the tories and all those that put them in power)

[Ernest Burden III]

UK must stay in the EU

(burn the tories and all those that put them in power)

 

Can you include all of our US elected officials (except the few I actually like) ? That would be great. Thank you.

[Stephen Thomas]

I'll be voting for in. The arguments for leaving seem very short-sighted. Not that I've seen much argument-making from either side actually. In contrast I was very much in favour of independence in the Scottish referendum last year, but that was about having control over things in our own backyard and a more accountable government. I have no problem coming together on common issues and improving trade and job opportunities.

[mrjackel]

I don't expect the average person to know anything about these issues, and why should I? Isn't that what we pay our politicians for?

 

Believing that politicians thoroughly understand these issues and their outcomes, or base their decisions on wanting the best for the people, is naive.

 

If I do vote then it will be for leaving. As with anything in life; the wider the resources and focus are spread, the weaker the outcome. And I want for myself, my children, and their children, to live in a country that focuses its resources on making itself as strong as it can be.

Edited April 15, 2016 by mrjackel

[Chris MacDonald]

Believing that politicians thoroughly understand these issues and their outcomes, or base their decisions on wanting the best for the people, is naive.

 

Why is it naive? Even the people I know that want to vote out aren't this pessimistic.

 

If I do vote then it will be for leaving. As with anything in life; the wider the resources and focus are spread, the weaker the outcome. And I want for myself, my children, and their children, to live in a country that focuses its resources on making itself as strong as it can be.

 

The amount we send to the EU in terms of funding is miniscule in the grand scheme of things - it is around 0.65% of the total budget. Other countries pay 1% - and we get a fair amount of that back as funding, which generally goes toward poorer areas of the country and farming.

 

The uncertainty that leaving will create is already enough to impact on markets and jobs, let alone if we actually left. I see absolutely no real reason to leave.

[TomasEsperanza]

What amazes me is how insulated many of UK population have become from broader thinking; from thinking globally with a realistic perspective. The establishment, who are invested in maintaining the status quo, have manipulated Joe Public much. A big part of that is pacifying people with consumerism, scapegoating via the media, misinforming them with political rhetoric, and generally being really nasty cynical shysters.

 

The 1% with 99% of the wealth, are never going to be handing out objective information. As such, we really don't hear good arguments for any viewpoint as often as we should; don't forget they control everything they can. The only thing for it, if you care, and you should, is to ensure you are as well read/educated/informed as time permits. This is frustrating; as we should be able to trust our government (but lets be real here, that's as rare as rockinghorse shit).

 

I'll be voting to stay in, not because I'm impressed by the EU, but because I recognise it as a lesser of evils. At this point in time for humanity on Earth, we need to keep our eye on the end game. That means co-operation, diplomacy, honesty, fairness, not nationalism, capitalism, self-ism, and isolation. There is no space in this world for "I'm alright Jack" anymore.

Edited April 18, 2016 by TomasEsperanza

[Chris MacDonald]

I think you touched upon a point there. You don't have to be a fan of the EU to see that it is better to be in than out.

[Chris MacDonald]

I think that UK should not leave EU.Europe is like US,one country.

 

The is the problem. We generally don't want to be part of a superstate. We are British, and like being such - so the continual movement towards a superstate is what is causing a lot of people to feel disenfranchised and what has ultimately brought about this referendum.

 

As I said in a previous post, I have seen no real argument for leaving which is very odd given that the out campaign has had 41 years since the last referendum on it to get their argument and facts together; they just appear to be winging it, using mostly fear mongering tactics.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Macker

[mrjackel]

Throughout history, the UK has been one of the most powerful, successful and wealthy nations on earth. Which is amazing considering its size. But no country or person has ever become strong by allowing those in a weaker position to take more than they can give back.

 

I think a large % of people who want to remain, do so because of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the initial change, and fear caused by propaganda.

 

But this isn't a suitable place to start a debate like this. Nor do I respect the attempt at using it to sway people's opinions. When it comes to the actual truth of the outcome, time will tell.

[TomasEsperanza]

The straw man walked in to the bar gave a snide look at the patrons, and lit his cigarette.

[Chris MacDonald]

Throughout history, the UK has been one of the most powerful, successful and wealthy nations on earth. Which is amazing considering its size. But no country or person has ever become strong by allowing those in a weaker position to take more than they can give back.

 

You are harking back to a time when slavery was deemed acceptable and we pillaged two thirds of the earth for all it was worth and did nothing for the indigenous populations. We aren't even the largest economy in Europe, let alone the world.

 

I think a large % of people who want to remain, do so because of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of the initial change, and fear caused by propaganda.

 

Perhaps it is a fear of the unknown, but given that there has yet to be any actual evidence of it being beneficial yet I would argue that people are erring on the side of caution rather than fear.

 

But this isn't a suitable place to start a debate like this. Nor do I respect the attempt at using it to sway people's opinions.

 

Cry me a river, if you don't want to have a debate about it then don't have a debate about it. As for it not being a suitable place for it (off topic section?) then pray tell what is? Also, if you don't wish to have your opinion swayed then you are basically admitting that no amount of evidence will sway you; which is idiotic.

[mrjackel]

I was referring to the UK's economic history. It's you who has associated that only with slavery. Now that is pessimism. And as far as not being one of the largest European economies, I'm not sure what planet you live on.

 

Your information is second hand. You're information is from sources with certain agendas. If life hasn't taught you that a lot of the time what you read and hear isn't actually the truth, then you're a fool. I really have better ways to spend my downtime than doing this, so I'm leaving it here. But don't go putting more words in my mouth. That's just weak.

[Chris MacDonald]

And as far as not being one of the largest European economies, I'm not sure what planet you live on.

 

I said it wasn't the largest economy in Europe. No matter how much you say it is; it isn't. Germany is.

 

Your information is second hand.

 

So where is yours from? Your own studies? Are you an economist in disguise?

 

You're [sic] information is from sources with certain agendas.

 

Quite possibly. The financial times, World Bank, IMF, Bank of England, London School of Economics and treasury all tend to have finance as their main agenda.

 

If life hasn't taught you that a lot of the time what you read and hear isn't actually the truth, then you're a fool.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about really, given that I haven't really cited any articles. I do try my level best to find the most factual sources, rather than go straight to the daily mail.

 

I really have better ways to spend my downtime than doing this, so I'm leaving it here. But don't go putting more words in my mouth. That's just weak.

 

lol, I didn't. You odd bloke.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Macker

[Scott Schroeder]

This seems a lot like trying to have a rational debate with a Trump supporter here in the US.

 

Just throw your hands up and walk away.

[Francisco Penaloza]

I think that all this is very interesting not related with Arch Viz but still related.

I am very surprised for your opinions, being in the outsider (live in USA but born in South America) I got a very different picture, but of course my info comes filtrated for the US media so... lot os interest there.

I truly believe the people is always governed by who they deserve in time. I believe in unity, human being start to advance thank to unity and sharing. individualism is bad. look USA look any piramidal government style, they all fall.

Best luck for all working people in UK.

[Chris MacDonald]

Now the design world is beginning to get involved:

 

http://www.dezeen.com/2016/04/26/wolfgang-tillmans-eu-referendum-posters-anti-brexit-campaign-uk-remain/

[Chris MacDonald]

This week lads & ladies. Just today the remain polls came out on top and the pound rocketed as a result.

[MarcellusW]

Brexit Points:

 

1. It is easier to reform a smaller federal government than a larger one.

 

2. Britain has a wonderful history and culture which will be better protected and passed on by those of the same culture in power.

 

3. If the UN's premise in settling international disputes falls to the principle of self-determination, then giving power to a supra-national entity over a nation would be a step backward.

 

4. If we see it as justice that legitimate nations(at least recognized, and had a legal foundation, I don't mean to start a flame war) were dismantled at the end of WWI because of the right of cultural self-determination, (e.g. Austria-Hungary), then again, being in the EU is a step backward.

 

5. Territorial/cultural disputes not successfully resolved by EU governance could involve arbitration by the UN, which again uses the right of cultural self-determination and anti-colonialism as its legal framework. This scenario seems to be an existential problem because it submits the EU to an external entity.

 

6. Are other countries willing to accept German dominance? (re: points 2, 3, 4, 5).

 

7. Bringing separate nations together with deep and conflicting histories by a distinctly secularist foundation is a gamble that Europe can be culturally unified by something other than its Christian past. Re: Pope Benedict XVI and Marcello Pera, "Without Roots."

 

Brexit!

[harryhirsch]

Economy doesnt matter at all?

[Chris MacDonald]

Brexit Points:

 

1. It is easier to reform a smaller federal government than a larger one.

 

 

It's also harder to tackle massive issues with a smaller government.

 

2. Britain has a wonderful history and culture which will be better protected and passed on by those of the same culture in power.

 

Our wonderful history and culture hasn't gone anywhere, and isn't going anywhere. An engineer coming here from Germany to work doesn't suddenly wipe out part of British history.

 

3. If the UN's premise in settling international disputes falls to the principle of self-determination, then giving power to a supra-national entity over a nation would be a step backward.

 

That's a UN policy, not an EU one.

 

4. If we see it as justice that legitimate nations(at least recognized, and had a legal foundation, I don't mean to start a flame war) were dismantled at the end of WWI because of the right of cultural self-determination, (e.g. Austria-Hungary), then again, being in the EU is a step backward.

 

How so? The EU isn't a country.

 

5. Territorial/cultural disputes not successfully resolved by EU governance could involve arbitration by the UN, which again uses the right of cultural self-determination and anti-colonialism as its legal framework. This scenario seems to be an existential problem because it submits the EU to an external entity.

 

Your main points all appear to be about disputes between countries, and appear to be of the mindset that the EU is a country?

 

6. Are other countries willing to accept German dominance? (re: points 2, 3, 4, 5).

 

This gets more bizarre the more I read of it. I think you have a profound misunderstanding of what the EU actually is. Every country within the EU has a right to veto anything, regardless of size/wealth/etc.

 

7. Bringing separate nations together with deep and conflicting histories by a distinctly secularist foundation is a gamble that Europe can be culturally unified by something other than its Christian past. Re: Pope Benedict XVI and Marcello Pera, "Without Roots."

 

Again, what? You haven't raised a single issue that anyone in the British public is concerned about.

[Stephen Thomas]

Not trying to sway anyone either way, but I watched this last night and he has considerable experience and does a good job of laying out the facts.

 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

[Chris MacDonald]

Excellent video.

[MarcellusW]

How so? The EU isn't a country.

 

Your main points all appear to be about disputes between countries, and appear to be of the mindset that the EU is a country?

 

This gets more bizarre the more I read of it. I think you have a profound misunderstanding of what the EU actually is. Every country within the EU has a right to veto anything, regardless of size/wealth/etc.

 

 

So I did a little research. If you can call wikipedia research.

 

The EU is defined as a "Politico-Economic Union"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

I was scratching my head at what the "politico" part meant (if that definition was somehow closer to what you were saying as not really a country)

The wiki hyper link def. went to:

 

Political union:

"... a type of state which is composed of or created out of smaller states. The process is called unification."

 

Under examples of "federal/confederal Unions" there are:

 

Canada

 

Australia

 

The now extinct German Empire and the USSR

 

USA

 

and

 

The European Union.

 

Would you agree that debating further on 'country' or 'not a country' would seem to be semantics? Formally, it looks like... a country.

 

Again, what? You haven't raised a single issue that anyone in the British public is concerned about.

 

I think you should read the book. I agree that you would better know about your own country's public opinion, but it is a really good read (The Pope Emeritus has an extremely sharp mind in how he crafts sentences.) Then you could give me an insider's opinion on it.

 

Have a great week!

Edited June 21, 2016 by MarcellusW