How long time do you get?

[Karin Skaug]

I've been a member here since 2012, but haven't contributed that much. I have been working full time with visualizations for 15 years now, but I still experience the imposter syndrome and get overwhelmed by all the talent people show.

The background for my question is this: I started out at roughly the same time as MIR. I used to think I was able to make the same sort of images they could, if I only got the right client. The years went by, and I got the right client. I made some twilight renders with fog and everything and found out I was far from anything remotely MIR-ish. But as for most of us (I guess), the fancy competition renders are not what makes the bulk of the work, so I have continued working full time as a visualization artist/technician, only with lesser self esteem. I guess I can call my work mid-range quality. Not fancy, but always as correct as possible with regards to context, views and lighting conditions. In my early years, competition wasn't really an issue, but now it is. I work in-house at an architectural firm, but the illustration work is most of the time contracted as a separate job. I happen to live in a very expensive and cold country, so globalization does not favor me. To exaggegrate that, I live/work in a part of the country where housing is (relatively) cheap, so the developers have very tight margins.
All this result in me having to deliver stills in two days. That's what the clients in this area are willing to pay for. My question to you is, how long time do you use to produce a mid-range quality still image? (Not fancy, but always as correct as possible with regards to context, views and lighting conditions.)

The question of "how much should I charge" comes up now and then, and is almost impossible to answer due to globalization and all the different types of assignments and the level of expertise. But the time spent per picture could be easier to define. I once read that the guys at MIR were expected to deliver one image per week.
How long time do you get?

[heni30]

Hi Karin,

Of course, this depends on the size and complexity of the project.  Do you have some samples of typical projects you do?  I saw one

of a snow scene group of buildings you did - buildings seemed like simple-ish blocks.

I would think the average time people try to get is 5 days or so.  Two days is do-able but if you get several of these at the same time

you are in trouble - one of the downsides of being a solo freelancer.  I use an Asian studio to help out when necessary.  They can

do things overnight and charge 1/4 to 1/2 my fee depending on the size of the project.  That is the problem - that if you can't or don't

want to work with these tight deadlines the client will find someone who does.

You can try to have a really efficient work flow so that everything is at your finger tips - Entourage (streets, vegetation, building parts. lighting set-ups, etc).

Outsource modeling maybe - I found some good people on Upwork.   A network of artists who help each other out is a good idea.  At least in your situation you have your in house job to fall back on.

Actually Mir's work is easier to produce because it's loose and "artistic".  They have challenges where you produce a rendering in a day. 

They gave me a rough average estimate of $4000 usd per rendering a while back.

One of the larger firms told a prospective hire who asked about overtime that if you want to work 8 hours a day get a job selling life insurance.

[Karin Skaug]

Thank you for your reply. 5 days seems to be fair. When I not-very-scientificly compared living expenses using the the Big mac index and average salary statistics for different countries, it gave more or less the same result. If the clients spend their "normal" amount of money, they can get two days work with my company's rates or approximately a week from one of the companies based in Eastern Europe - or more like two weeks for a Vietnamese company. Please have in mind this is a very rough and unscientific conclusion.

I don't know what examples of my work you have seen - I haven't published anything I remember, and my companys website features work from other artists as well. (It hasn't been updated with any of my work after I got back from maternity leave (which is generous in this country and of course also adds to the high rates)). I do what I think is regular small city stuff -  planning, schools, office- and appartement buildings in any phase, exteriors and interiors, often photomontaged with drone footage capured by me. A competition now and then. I haven't published anything at cgarchitect as most projects are confidential until they are... well, outdated, but I guess I'll start to get permission to publish to get better score from now on.?

5 hours ago, heni30 said:

One of the larger firms told a prospective hire who asked about overtime that if you want to work 8 hours a day get a job selling life insurance.

Thankfully, we have strict law regulations about working hours.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Karin Skaug

[heni30]

Hey,

If you put anybody's name in Google with "3D",  work usually comes up.  It seems like it was an Enscape forum you were trying to get help on:

https://forum.enscape3d.com/index.php?user-post-list/4031-karin-skaug/  -  nothing escapes the internet!

 

[Francisco Penaloza]

The race to the bottom is a race that I quite long time ago, There is no way for me (living in California) to compete with anybody living in a cheaper country. I have expressed my personal opinion in this website many time so I am not going back to that.

Having said that, I work for an Architectural company too, most of our project are bread a butter School, Hospitals and such, nothing equally fancy as most Mir projects,  but from time to time we have good looking projects that let me stretch my legs. but depending on budget will be the time I can spend on those images.

Usually I work from a given model, for good or for bad my window is about 12 hours per image, and that thankfully depends 80% of me, if I really want to create something to be proud I take more time.  Of course is schedule permits.

While working as freelancer I did bend backward to get the job done and stay competitive, but honestly I lost that competition to the bottom and I was losing the satisfaction of doing what I like. Thankfully and knocking on wood I found a great company to work for that really appreciate my craft, and I also try to brig to the table not just the knowing what button to push but everything else than an Arch Viz artist has to offer.

My big competition now, ( and this is y fault too,) are one click button renderings, I can't do all project in this company so I had to teach many designers all these new tools so they take the first or second stab renderings to their projects, and most of the time it dies there, Good enough.  Now when quality projects comes they don't think twice and just pass it to me. They know what I can deliver and are happy with the overall experience. and thankfully in the past years this is been the norm.

Having said all this mambo jumbo, I would not recommend to just focus on creating a nice image as fast as possible, as a Arch Viz artist, you can do so much more. You are the fresh eyes looking a project, you can give input from the user point of view for a new development, you can be the person who questions colors materials  and many more. All that info is very valuable for a smart designer some one who what to do a good job.

Trying to output as many images as possible in a short amount of time, is not science any more, it is literally a click of a button, but from there to have a great image there stills a big gap and that it takes time, and your clients should understand that.

I am in my mid 40's and that "working overtime' BS for me is done, you can be very productive from 8 til 5 you can get a lot done, most of the time when we Arch Viz have to overnight is because changes that are not our fault, when some one else couldn't finish their deadline.  Whit experience you already know when a project will need more time and you also know when a client will be a problem, so you should program all that time ahead, if you do that then there is not long nights or working weekends.  Of course YMWV if you are new, or are starving you do what you gotta do, but still you can manage your time in a good way, that also will give you the advantage of a cheaper overseas option.

I know that I am not 100% right, and my daily work day is full of question and typical problems, but with some of the ground rules I have mentioned, it make my job a profession something that I like to do and feel proud to share with others. Images could be better?, of course, but developing a good project on time and not feeling dirty doing it is priceless.

 

 

 

[Karin Skaug]

I think one of the most important - and most difficult thing - is making it just good enough.
Not spending unnecessary resources, but not making it too simple and get a disappointed client.

Earlier our company had a slogun saying we would bring "that little extra", and I still try do do that. Surprise them a little in a positive way, like finding a view that includes a local landmark out of the window, putting images of the historical use of the site on the living room wall or shooting background photos which includes local arrangements or other features. Things that bring more feeling/sense of the location, I guess. My clients have always expressed appreciation for this.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Karin Skaug

[Francisco Penaloza]

6 hours ago, Karin Skaug said:

I think one of the most important - and most difficult thing - is making it just good enough.
Not spending unnecessary resources, but not making it too simple and get a disappointed client.

Earlier our company had a slogun saying we would bring "that little extra", and I still try do do that. Surprise them a little in a positive way, like finding a view that includes a local landmark out of the window, putting images of the historical use of the site on the living room wall or shooting background photos which includes local arrangements or other features. Things that bring more feeling/sense of the location, I guess. My clients have always expressed appreciation for this.

Well that is exactly what it make the difference when you can have a face to face with the client or you just send overseas to 'get it done'.

I also do the same, always try to make the image some way familiar or custom, not push button done.