WIP/project log interior

[Ernest Burden III]

Hey Ernest,

 

What happed? Are we supposed to have a chance to look at the model already?

 

Uh, yeah. I got busy with another project, and then it got cancelled. Anyway, I've been modeling away in Datacad, polygons.

 

I like modeling in CAD for the snaps and high-percision-math database. I'm not comfortable with much 'eyeballing', and go to the other extreme to be accurate to a level no builder could match in real construction. The snap should appear spot-on even zoomed in 200X life size. Right? "He's Nuts".

 

It's been a lot of work with a curved window wall, a set of Y shaped beams that are NOT planar in plan (good luck fabricating them as drafted).

 

There is a wall behind the dining room that is made of stacked 1" metal rods. Simple, right? No, they follow a curve in plan AND cant back. You cannot just make one and copy it up, each one is on a slightly different radius. The only way to model it was to sweep the profiles of all the rods, after arranging them in a 'section' arrangement so they could all be based on the same base point as the sweep origin. It worked, but was a slow go. The wall has a number of cutout areas, where there is every-other rod and a cavity behind which will be lit. Even with a division of 8 on the circle (section) they make about 35,000 polygons.

 

I am really determined to use Cinema for the work. I worked with it all last week on the other project and feel like it can handle this space. The huge number of wine bottles worry me, for poly count. In Lightscape I have resorted to processing seperate files for huge-poly decorative items then combining back into one file for render. This space may be the death of Lightscape. So C4D it must be...

 

Modeling, I am assigning colors rather randomly, by printing out the materials schedule and writing 'color 122' for one paint type, 'color 087' for another. This way I can keep track of my materials in both CAD and then in C via DXF (which does not transfer material names, just numbers 000 - 255).

[Tim Nelson]

Ouch! Cancelled projects are never good.

 

Hey, make sure you turn on caustics for all the bottles! J/K.

 

How did you do those wireframes? Vray has a nice toon effect, but not with that sort of sketch look.

 

Regarding paint types, I do pretty much the same thing in Autocad, although the names transfer over to Viz. It always makes it pretty easy to find & assign materials once I link the files.

 

Looks like a cool space. The time spent on difficult modeling will definitely pay off.

[oluv]

How did you do those wireframes? Vray has a nice toon effect, but not with that sort of sketch look.

 

maybe this is penguin? their renderings look similar.

 

by the way: rhino can infact import blocks from autocad, but you have to use the bonus-import format for that, that will be implemented in rhino4 as standard.

 

for now if you open an autocad-file, scroll down in the format-list to choose bonus autocad-drawing. this one imports blocks and even solid acis-geometry. very nice feature!

 

best regards, o.

[Ernest Burden III]

maybe this is penguin? their renderings look similar.

 

No. The line drawings are processed in Photoshop from color images just like the one on the right. Since I am not yet addressing materials, I didn't want my client freaking out over my random color choices.

 

I have a recorded action for PS to make lines, so its really just a one button thing (with a few optional controls).

 

by the way: rhino can infact import blocks from autocad, but you have to use the bonus-import format for that, that will be implemented in rhino4 as standard.

 

for now if you open an autocad-file, scroll down in the format-list to choose bonus autocad-drawing. this one imports blocks and even solid acis-geometry. very nice feature!

 

Wow! I wonder if I got that in whatever version of the Rhino3 bonus stuff I got from McNeel. Not that I use Rhino ever, but no block import is one reason for that lack of use.

[Brian Cassil]

I didn't want my client freaking out over my random color choices

 

I know exactly what you mean about that. The line technique is a great idea for wips. I assume that there is a find edges in your PS action somewhere but could you give us a few other clues about how you've achieved the line drawings?

[Ernest Burden III]

I assume that there is a find edges in your PS action somewhere but could you give us a few other clues about how you've achieved the line drawings?

 

It starts with a mostly flat render. One without phong shading is good, flat color on most planes but with lighter and darker sides of objects so you get corner/edge lines. Then generate lines (glowing edges, invert, hue/sat all colors to black (better than desaturate) invert), then loosen 'em up. For that I use motion blur on two copies of the lines, one horizontal one vertical, them combine the layers with...overlay? screen? mode. I don't remember, fortunately Photosho does. Then Alienskin EyeCandy's Jiggle (but Photoshop Ocean Ripple can do about the same).

[Frosty]

There is a wall behind the dining room that is made of stacked 1" metal rods. Simple, right? No, they follow a curve in plan AND cant back. You cannot just make one and copy it up, each one is on a slightly different radius. The only way to model it was to sweep the profiles of all the rods, after arranging them in a 'section' arrangement so they could all be based on the same base point as the sweep origin. It worked, but was a slow go. The wall has a number of cutout areas, where there is every-other rod and a cavity behind which will be lit. Even with a division of 8 on the circle (section) they make about 35,000 polygons.

 

I'm not entirely sure that I understand this design, but I think I can figure out a few other methodologies to make this type of process easier - and well, thats what this thread is about.

 

FormZ:

Draw the paths of the top rod and bottom rod and arrange to the correct height (more than two may be required). Highlight both splines and create a Nurbs Mesh object. Use the contour tool to slice the new mesh on the increments needed for each interim sweep spline. Highlight all splines and "join". Finally, sweep all splines at once with the appropriate profile.

 

Cinema 4D:

Draw/import the base spline path for the wall and insert into a sweep nurbs with the proper profile (creates the bottom rod). With the Jenna plugin, use itterator to generate all remaining rods including the deformations (cant, twist, rotate).

[Ernest Burden III]

Draw the paths of the top rod and bottom rod and arrange to the correct height (more than two may be required). Highlight both splines and create a Nurbs Mesh object. Use the contour tool to slice the new mesh on the increments needed for each interim sweep spline. Highlight all splines and "join". Finally, sweep all splines at once with the appropriate profile.

 

Ah! You are right. Another good approach is to work with the paths. It's not that hard to work out the interval of the rods in plan or section (they are drafted in section in the project CAD files). I was sweeping a bunch of little circles carefully arranged around ONE base path. But by using a dynamic enlarge I could create the series of a path for each rod. Regular enlarge won't work because while they all share a centerpoint, a percentage would be different for each path. So creating a set of points to snap enlarged copies of the path to (same center point) would work.

 

Just to be clear, the wall is curved in plan, AND leans back (non-vertical surface). No easy way to model, but certainly several that will work.

 

Thanks!

[Ernest Burden III]

I should be further along with my modeling than I am. It will be a busy week to catch up and get to the fun stuff of lighting and final treatments.

 

Anyway, working on the bar structure. Its a bunch of sloped surfaces, flat and curved.

[Ernest Burden III]

I want to show some of the stuff I typically need to do my work, especially at the modeling stage. There can be a lot of math, even with good CAD files to snap to. I need to make a lot of notes as I work. For example, I may measure a few points in a CAD section that I must write down so as I model the parts I do not have to go back to the CAD files to get the information, I may be working with a different CAD file at that time.

 

Lists. I need to keep lists of tasks that still need doing. I find it best if they are very specific like 'make chair01', 'paint textures for chair01', and NOT 'do furniture'. That way I can keep crossing off items and feel like I am making progress hour-by-hour, day-by-day. Otherwise, days go by and you just have general work to do, you can't see how much progress you have made or what remains to do.

 

Coffee. Gotta have coffee.

[Tim Nelson]

Yeah right, you just wanted to show off your Boxx!!

 

Of all the things you just mentioned, the most important thing to me is the list of things to do. That's not so much an issue when I first begin and even in the middle stages. But once I get to the end there are so many little things I need to fix, I can spend a week on the last 5% and feel like I'm wasting my time unless I write those things down and get them done one by one. And a lot of times its good because it forces me to do things I have been postponing or don't want to do for one reason or another.

[Chad Warner]

I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one with a messy work area. I keep prints of plans, elevations, etc, notes all over the place, pictures of samples...you name it. It's great until I have to find something a week later and can't find it cause it's buried under a new pile of notes and prints.

[William Alexander]

Ernest,

You need more surface space to spread out on, LOL. I have 8' of surface to the right of my workstation/s (storage under), not used so much for CG- take offs and bidding for contracting (similar process).

 

BTW, your 'order' of things on the desk looks very familar..... makes me feel better.

 

Thanks for doing this thread............

 

 

Tim,

 

I'm not surprised you plan your work out- very good and it shows in the final product, imho. Although I think it is commonly percieved as being anti-artist.

 

It's a key component to success, any process any industry / proffession / trade. For all the reasons you describe, on many levels.

 

Cheers,

WDA

[Ernest Burden III]

I'm just glad to see I'm not the only one with a messy work area.

 

My workspace is NOT messy! It took me years and finally hiring a professional de-messer to get it organized. I pulled some of those things together so I could get them in one shot. Remember the shot of my space in the 'your workplace' thread?

 

Tim: Yeah, I made sure to get my un-paid Boxx plug in there. What's it to ya?

[Tommy L]

trhoads said...

 

"...In my version of VIZ, blocks from AutoCAD, are seen on the layer that they are inserted into AutoCAD on if they were not exploded in AutoCAD. Even when they have their own layers as a seperate file. I have not figured out how to leave them that way, and be able to assign materials, I am sure I am just missing something. They do work, and do change if reloaded, but it is the materials issue that I have had with blocks...."

 

Hello mate, I think i know what your driving at. If you use a multi/sub-object material you can assign the different sub-materials to different components of your block by changing the material id of each component in the block to match the material ID number in the material editor.

The seperate components can be assigned an ID number by applying an edit mesh modifier to the block. Then select 'element' in the stack and scroll down the modifier panel to 'material: set ID'

Then just match the number to the corresponding material ID in the editor. Drop me a line if you dont get it. Blocks are handy things, because they retain their orientation for mapping. I use them alot for repetetive windows etc. the box mapping remains true regardless of the windows going round a curve for example.

Good luck

Tom.

[Ernest Burden III]

If you use a multi/sub-object material you can assign the different sub-materials to different components of your block by changing the material id of each component in the block to match the material ID number in the material editor.

The seperate components can be assigned an ID number by applying an edit mesh modifier to the block. Then select 'element' in the stack and scroll down the modifier panel...

 

 

Wow.

 

What a tangled mess. Was that English, or Max-speak?

 

 

Right now I am not having to worry about block layering since Cinema is blind to blocks. I really hope that changes. But with Datacad, which I'm modeling in, and Lightscape, the layers of the block are transfered as-is (whether or not you want them to). Frankly, I often prefer a block to have but ONE layer so I don't end up with 'layer bloom' later, if I forgot the 'hidden' structure of blocks.

 

Cinema's not far behind Max in the twisted language, so no offense. I just dislike it.

[Ernest Burden III]

I've begun to bring my model into Cinema. Things are getting more fun. I still have the looming terror of lighting and resulting rendertimes, but I'll leave that for later. I have put in the white circles so it LOOKS like I have the lights. At the moment I am just illuminating with 3 distant lights set to no shadows, set at opposing angles, one shining up, at different powers and colors.

 

I'm not sure of the exact final view, but its supposed to be from the bar looking back at the dining room. Because the place curves, the DR curves out-of-view. Really they need two renderings. But the owner was unwilling to pay for two right away. Maybe later.

 

I'm seeing a few architectural issues now that its looking more 'together', and have asked the designer for some answers. I'll fix them later.

 

I have been using DXF to transfer the data from CAD into C4D and it has been working wonderfully. My CAD layers come in as a grouped object, with subs if there were different colors. Perfect. I couldn't have set it up any better. When you know how your renderer needs things grouped you can set it up as you model.

[trhoads]

I like the composition of the third image the most. It shows the bar, and leads the eye off to the DR.

 

The first one feels like it is leaning, due tot he column on the left hand side.

 

The last one cuts off that very interesting bar entrance.

 

I have enjoyed peeking in on the progress of this. Great thread.

[Chad Warner]

Really they need two renderings. But the owner was unwilling to pay for two right away. Maybe later.

 

Without giving away more than you want, I'm curious--how do you price your renderings? Is it a set fee for the first view, and then a smaller fee for each subsequent view? I'm only wondering because I would normally charge a set fee (although maybe slightly higher) for 4-5 views of a space. If I know the client only wants one view, it gets priced less.

[Ernest Burden III]

Without giving away more than you want, I'm curious--how do you price your renderings?

 

Never enough. And I charge a lot. But I work on them a lot.

 

I price work by a set fee, usually. I learned the hard way to price in order, not as a set of views. Meaning, if I am asked to price three renderings of one space, it's not $11,000--its $5500 for the first, $3000 for the next and $2500 the next. Reason--"OK, so it's $3600 for one then, right?"

 

So what makes the 'same space'? One restaurant? The dining room is one, plus the bar area is two? Exterior plus lobby is one or two spaces?

 

Also, each rendering takes a certain amount of time for post work regardless of how many views you crank out of one model, so you have to build that into a fee, too.

 

Its never that easy to price. You don't want to get greedy if you want or especially need the work, yet you don't want to leave money on the table, as they say.

 

I know some renderers who work by the hour, especially when doing work on-site, and then usually drawing/painting. If you really want to make some money in rendering, do that. Oh, and you get to dring their great office coffee and have all the young designers come over to talk to you all day long. I don't do much of that sort of work (I like my studio) but, man, $200 - $300 / hour adds up quickly.

[Elliot]

Ernest,

 

Your skills are very good....! It is very interesting to follow this thread.

 

Elliot

[Tim Nelson]

Never enough. And I charge a lot. But I work on them a lot.

 

Over the years, have you had a certain strategy in getting paid more towards how much you think you deserve for your renderings? I mean, you probably didn't start your rendering career by charging $5000 per piece.

 

I'm just wondering because already this year I've had an architect that I haven't worked with before contact me for pricing on a rendering. My goal for this year is to not only raise the quality of my work, but also increase what I get paid for it. So I quoted him a higher figure that what I have been, but even so, not particularly high for what it was. It was a three story hotel in California, not overly complex, but would have involved a decent amount of work. I quoted around 2,000 for a single exterior view. Now, I could have done it for half that price, but I think it would only have been half as good of a rendering as I wanted to do. Of course, he didn't get back to me, and later when I asked him, he said he thought the price was rather high.

 

So what do you do then? Just wait until you get a client who is willing to pay you for quality work? I mean, it's no big deal to me now because I have enough work at the moment. But I just hope that this won't be a continuing trend.

[Ernest Burden III]

you probably didn't start your rendering career by charging $5000 per piece.

 

Actually, I did.

 

Well, more often $3500 - $4000 Going back to 1985 dollars, that's a lot!

 

The thing was, that was for really big, detailed hand-drawn and painted work. 20" x 30" or more, detail as small as you could see. They took many weeks to produce.

 

Once the NY real estate market collapsed under President Bush the 1st (you mean there's another one?) the cost of renderings fell through the floor. That presumes you could get any work. It was lean for a bit. The result was big changes in the way I and many other renderers worked. We went small and quick and loose. The interesting thing was, 'the architects could not care' (Clash line!). So it has remained.

 

Until all these damned digital renderings, detailed down to the micron. Prices are finally back on the rise, and the time needed to complete a good rendering has fallen, so a $4000 rendering today is worth as much if not more to the renderer than the $4000 rendering in 1987.

 

Now $2000 for an exterior is not an outrageous price. I'm sorry you lost it, but I'm glad you didn't accept $1000 to do the piece.

 

An exterior, huh. For some reason I'm awash in interior projects the last few years. It's showing no sign of letting up, as of this morning's calls. Will I ever see the sun again? (Take that two ways).

[trhoads]

Right now we are offering them to clients at around $2,000, for the first exterior shot. So far we have not really had any complaints, just not as many projects requiring them lately.

 

Sorry to hear you lost the project Tim. Better than getting taken to the cleaners on it though.

[Sawyer]

First,

 

Thank you Ernest for being so honest, this thread is very valuable. I would also like to know how others go with raising their prices. I just raised my hourly to 50 per and I had a few raised eyebrows but nothing lost.

 

At the times I feel a little self concious about my rates I have created a little speech in my mind. I haven't had to use it but it makes me feel better:

 

"If you feel my prices are high they may be. I believe I do quality work. I have also based these prices on talking to other illustrator, so if you think you can find better quality for a better price please let me know & I will be open to that."

 

 

Tim, I think you are priced in the right area. I just got a commision for 4 exteriors at 2,500. I was actually embarresed to put the price on them that they needed, the architect priced them for me, I would probably asked for less just because I have never worked with a fee that high.