WIP/project log interior

[trhoads]

Our prices have gone up, since the quality has gone up. We too feel that if a prospective client feels that our fees for architecture and or rendering are too high, then good luck to them finding someone else. We are busy enough that we don't need to bend over backwards to get the job.

[Tim Nelson]

Yeah, for me its a lot easier to stand my ground on a new client than trying to raise prices with clients that are familiar with my past pricing.

 

I worked a lot with an architect last year who has been with me since I first started and was doing super cheap work. Soon I realized I was going to starve at those rates, so I had to be honest with him & tell him I need to charge significantly more. After explaining everything he was very understanding and continues to give me lots of work. I still give him very good deals though, since I don't want to insult him by blasting my prices too high. That and his projects are very consistent with how they send them to me & how we work together. Their drawings are always excellent and that is worth a lot.

[trhoads]

Not to get too far off topic, but I have an enormous amount of respect for those of you that do renderings from other peoples drawings. I do my drawings and renderings, and it is hard enough. And I know the design intent. I don't even like working from drawings done by someone else in my office.

 

ok, end of rabbit trail, back on track.

[Ernest Burden III]

I do my drawings and renderings, and it is hard enough

 

Well, the illustrator is never quite 'done', and the designer also does not know when to stop, so you must need to be beaten daily to leave work.

[trhoads]

Well, the illustrator is never quite 'done', and the designer also does not know when to stop, so you must need to be beaten daily to leave work.

 

How did you know?

 

It is a constant battle, but I like to use the rendering as a design tool, it helps to make sure it can be built, I look at it like this; if I can't build it in the computer, then a contractor will have a tough time in the field.

[Iain Denby]

"If you feel my prices are high they may be. I believe I do quality work. I have also based these prices on talking to other illustrator, so if you think you can find better quality for a better price please let me know & I will be open to that."

 

You might as well say " this is my price for my quality of work, but don't worry, I'll do it cheaper for you if I have to"

 

One bit of wisdom I once heard was ' if you charge less, eventually you will be valued less'

[Sawyer]

I don't see it like that. I have done the research while I think that most clients have not. My prices are based on what I have seen & I want to see if I am accurate. I don't want to overcharge anymore than I want to undercharge. Not exactally true but both under & over charging will affect me.

 

I am not saying pay me what you want. I am saying if you think you can get a better illustration at a better price I would like to know.

[Ernest Burden III]

My prices are based on what I have seen & I want to see if I am accurate. I don't want to overcharge anymore than I want to undercharge.

 

As I said in my story about pricing history, there came a time when clients said "$4000? Not possible. Can you do it for $1500?" So the point became to first get them to $2000 and then figure out how to do a good rendering for THAT price and still make money. So we did.

 

Negotiations are always possible, and movement on your number is too. I like to get a concession back, like simpler piece, more time, quicker payment. Something that says 'I will do less for less money, but still do a good job'.

 

But when the client does not want to spend anywhere near your price you need to thank them for the inquiry and walk away.

[Ernest Burden III]

To conclude the bit about pricing I will add that it does not matter how much you are being paid, it matters how much work you have to do to earn it. I have this tendency to pour unbelievable amounts of time into every project. That is not a good way to work, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist and the result is over-doing it.

 

Some renderers hand in work that is about 1/2 done, in my opinion, so it goes both ways.

 

This restaurant is killing me on time. But I'm using the project to learn more about working in Cinema, so its paying better than doing tutorials does.

[Ernest Burden III]

Have to model some furniture. I hate modeling furniture, I'm not good at it. I hate furnature in general.

 

I made the banquettes in CAD, since it was fairly easy to sweep the shape. Took that into a new (seperate) Cinema file to refine, subdivide, randomize a bit, and UV map.

 

Then load the completed 'layers' into my master Cinema file.

 

I've forgotten which fabric sample goes on the banquettes, so I'll make the texture in Photoshop later. I thing it will be stripes or little circles, so I needed the UV mapping.

 

Along the way I bought a few plugins from the same guy who makes the 'Final Touch' plug. One I love is 'Sniper' (awful name) that is a little render window. Working with one light or a group you can play with setting and see the results almost instantly. You don't need a full-screen render to know how the light is doing, or shadowmap sizes. (Why am I back to using a program that needs shadowmaps?) Anyway, its great. Work in whatever display mode is easiest, see a raytrace in the little (resizeable) window.

 

For the chair and barstool I have one photo each of a prototype with OA dimensions written on. I would like to try modeling from the picture with cameramapping. I bet it will be fairly easy to do as long as I can get a massing box to fit the photo's perspective.

[Alex York]

Hey just noticed this thread. Glad you liked my idea of an ongoing WIP you seem to be getting a hell of a lot more feedback than me though! naturally of course. yours is a more interesting project.

 

looking great so far. i wouldn't presume I'm able to crit anything at my level.

 

I hate modeling furnature as well In fact, anything organic!

 

best of luck with the rest of the project!

[4DM]

Hi Ernest,

 

Good thread and discussion. Seems to have migrated somewhat from your WIP log onto a debate about pricing, but all the more interesting for it.

 

My first reaction to a $5500 (£2900 +/-) price tag for a single storey restaurant interior was: hmmm.. a bit steep, but then I'm in London, not NY. We have a different market perhaps, though apparently we are now one of the most, if not the most, expensive cities in the world. Yikes!

 

However, it looks as if this job has taken a month so far- although with some time off for an abortive project, and "work avoidance behavior" (love it!), and it's still not completed, so I guess you do put in some hours.

 

But if even if your hourly rate were half the $200-$300 that the guy flown into an office gets, you should really be finishing that job in less than a week!

 

If you are taking 2 weeks to do it, that brings the hourly down to $69/£37.

And that's at an indolent 40 hours a week

So suddenly I'm not so jealous!

 

How many shots do they want of this scheme? Will you make your money back from multiple views?

 

Cheers,

 

Danny.

 

PS: I would suggest a 2D texture with an Alpha map instead of modelling all those tubes, but then I am not sure how close up you need to be to them in your view.

[Elliot]

Ernest,

 

I do mechanical engineering consulting for several architects. This has been my primary work for many years. As I am getting older my interest has drifted away from consulting. Yesterday I turned in a job that took about 12 days. During the last 5 days I put easily 18 to 20 hours per day. With engineering it is a different pay schedule that can not be compared with rendering.

 

There is a similarity with rendering, all the clients complain about the fees. Some of the ones that complain have have even tried other consultants and have returned. What bothers me is when these architects that complain about the fees and threat me of not sending anymore projects (I really don't care), when they are behind schedule, they are so loving and so accomodating and so willing to pay even extra if the project is finished on time.

 

You should charge not 5K, you should charge 10K. Look at what they are charging for these comercial buildings. What about the 20 years that it has taken you to get where you are. Do they care about retirement funds and healthcare insurance? About constant upgrades in software and technology. WHile you are at night trying to improve your skills these guys are on their yatchs relaxing. I guess western living style or Maslow's theories combined with the jungle survival pyramid.

 

Have any of you ever asked a doctor before a complex surgery to reduce his fees....? I think we have several Doctors in rendering on this site... If visualization was not important for them, they would not have come to you! If they are spending several millions on the building they should pay 10K per rendering. It is not about the time it takes you to do the work, it is about the time of your life devoted to develop your craft - skills - vocation and love for the industry. Charge them like they charge their clients.... a percentage of the actual cost of the building..... Will they scream....!

 

Good Luck

Elliot

[4DM]

Will they scream....!

 

 

Elliot, I have a feeling if we ask 10K, or, wow, a percentage of the building cost, they won't scream - they'll just get all their visuals done in China

 

Cheers,

 

D.

[Ernest Burden III]

My first reaction to a $5500 (£2900 +/-) price tag for a single storey restaurant interior was: hmmm.. a bit steep, but then I'm in London, not NY....you should really be finishing that job in less than a week!

 

If you are taking 2 weeks to do it, that brings the hourly down to $69/£37.

And that's at an indolent 40 hours a week

So suddenly I'm not so jealous!

 

How many shots do they want of this scheme? Will you make your money back from multiple views?

 

I used the $5.5K as an example of where a multi-view project might start. I never said that was my fee for this one. OK, maybe it is, but I'n not saying so. Must keep some mystery about.

 

I don't think you would do a project like this one in a week, no matter how good you are. Two weeks seems more like it. So no, you don't make $200/hr most of the time. It would be great if you could.

 

As I said, working on-site is the way to do that, not doing projects from your studio. But then you don't have to sit there like the prize pig at the county fair, with everybody walking by talking about how they are thinking of doing rendering work.

 

Also, I'm using this project as a way to learn to use a new software program to do my work, which always takes time.

 

But I routinely over-do it. I put in lots og hours on parts of a space that are not seen very much, and could have been handled much more simply. That is why I am not rich. Or smart. Why DID I model the tubes? Yes, a map on a plane of polys would have looked about the same from the angle I am going to do the final from. I don't know, I just like to do a good job. And, I also hope the client will buy another view or two.

 

But so far, they are only willing to buy the one. Originally they asked for two, but thought better of it when they learned the cost. I had hoped to get the work done quicker than it has gone. Oh, well. I still have to do a good job, and if I have to put in extra 'unpaid' hours to do that, then I will.

[IC]

Nice to see that attitude on producing quality work over making fast money. There's much more happiness in job satisfaction than in making a bit more money.

 

Is 'Sniper' a preview window feature?

Looks very similar to LightWave's 'Viper'!

[Ernest Burden III]

Is 'Sniper' a preview window feature?

Looks very similar to LightWave's 'Viper'!

 

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

[4DM]

Nice to see that attitude on producing quality work over making fast money. There's much more happiness in job satisfaction than in making a bit more money.

 

Well, yes and no. After all, we're not exactly doing this for our health, and on the contrary, an entire career of late nights, working weekends and deadline induced stress could actually damage it over the long term. Especially, as the client (see Elliot's post above) is likely to be spending his time while you're doing it on his metaphorical yacht!

 

I believe in getting as fair a deal as possible, and that means not being exploited. This is my living, I have no other source of income, so I have to think in terms of productivity and efficiency as well as just the job satisfaction of producing something lovely.

 

After all, if you don't gain from it, someone else will.

 

(Of course, that doesn't mean I haven't also gone the extra half-mile for clients on many occasions and continue to do more often than not.)

 

Cheers,

 

D.

[IC]

I think there is a difference between handing over work which isn't up to your own standard because you've already committed the time you quoted for and 'getting a fair deal'.

Making the deal is up to the individual and the wealth of the client really isn't in the equation as far as I'm concerned.

 

Being exploited is unfair, but again, it's down to the individual to recognise it and stop it. If you feel another couple of hours would make a huge difference, surely it's worth the extra effort for your own satisfaction (and I know you agree with that reading your last paragraph.)

 

I sometimes think a lot of people give up trying to improve upon a project because the original design is poor or the money is bad or whatever. Just seems to me there should be more to it than that.

[Iain Denby]

I've actually carried on working on a job AFTER it's delivered and paid for ! Yes, I must be mad, but sometimes I look back on something with fresh eyes, and if a few more tweaks can improve it, I will for the sake of my own portfolio.

 

Sorry Ernest, we've gone off on one. Bring it back.

[Ernest Burden III]

Sorry Ernest, we've gone off on one. Bring it back.

 

I think a discussion of pay vs. work vs. quailty is a vital part of looking at a project. I don't think its off the topic at all.

 

I want to do a good rendering, and be well paid. In truth, I'm in control of both of those. Because I set the cost of my work (the client is free to say 'no thanks' but so am I if they offer less than my proposal) and because no-one tells me how to accomplish the result, I have only myself to blame if I don't end up with an hourly rate that pleases me. How I do the project is my business, the client cares that the hand-in is what they expected.

 

I think everybody wants to do as good a job as they can. That's why we have so many pieces posted here for comment.

[Ernest Burden III]

I do need to be looking at the end-game for this project.

 

I will be modeling and placing the tables and chairs next. I have to model a few light fixtures also.

 

Next will be setting up the lights. There are many. Wish me luck. I sure hope that Maxwell-for-Cinema things is released soon. Not soon enough to use it for this project, though. But I am also starting two other interior projects today, one of them a whole bunch of rooms in a 'typical' apartment. Seeing what Fran has done with vRay (not availablr for Cinema yet) and now Maxwell (same) makes me hope...

 

There will still be lots of details:

 

Import from Lightscape stuff I already have and use:

table place settings

bar glasses

bar bottles

wine bottles (very low poly for mass usage)

 

Sketch where people should go for the chosen view

 

Load in my 3D man and woman models and pose them (one of each, using different maps to make different people)

 

Paint a series of textures for the people models

 

Paint a few other textures (paint in Photoshop probably) for flooring, carpet, fabrics

 

render

 

post

 

nap

[Tim Nelson]

Man, for all the work you are putting into it, I'm beginning to think you are underpaid!

 

Seriously though, for doing only one still image, it seems like you have modeled a lot more than you needed to. When I start a project to do one still rendering, the first thing I need to figure out is what perspective I will be using. Usually I model the basic shape of it, and get some feedback from the client before I do any more work. Then once I know where I'm shooting from, I can import the plan into Viz and set up my camera from that approximate location. From there I will know exactly what I need to model to finish the job.

 

Without going back and looking at all your posts of modeling, it seems like you are modeling in anticipation of being able to shoot the rendering from anywhere within the main space. So I could be wrong, but it looks like a lot of extra work you might not necessarily need to do.

[Ernest Burden III]

for doing only one still image, it seems like you have modeled a lot more than you needed to. When I start a project to do one still rendering, the first thing I need to figure out is what perspective I will be using. Usually I model the basic shape of it, and get some feedback from the client before I do any more work.

 

I agree. Both on the point that I may be over-modeling, and the way to avoid it.

 

This project has worked against me, however, in that the one view that they client wants to see is one that shows at least some of all three 'zones' of the space--lounge (foreground) bar (middle) and dining room (background). So it will all be visible. But at least there is only one chair type plus a barstool, and only a few table shapes. They will be repeated.

 

I really hope they decide to buy another view of the dining room to make the project more prifitable, but no guarentee. I priced the larger number for the first view and a lower one for the second, then they said 'you're hired, but let's just do the first view'.

 

Either way, my kids will eat this month.

[Ernest Burden III]

The chairs.

 

I only have one photo of the mock-up chair. So I thought it would be interesting to try modeling it in a camera-mapped way. It worked just fine, but took a while. Modeling furniture always takes me a while, I'm just not good at it.

 

I projected the photo on a properly sized box, divided it up, pulled and pushed edges points and polys for the overall shape. I booleaned a hole at the back and also the area between the chairs legs, as I only had the outter surfaces.

 

I re-joined many polygons to get it back to a low count (since there will be many chairs) and created a UV map so I could do the wood, seat back and seat fabric all on one imagemap. I did a temporary version of the map, will do a better one later.

 

The barstool is a variation of this chair.

 

I put in the tables already, so I'll post a view with it all together tomorrow.