Ridiculous new test images

[bricklyne]

I don't think any other company will ever get away with using or trying to use this model to launch a new piece of software i.e. having custumers pay for the Beta or pre-release version of the software at a discount rate for the benefit of partitcipating in the software's development, and receiving future updates for free.

 

NextLimit has essentially and effectively poisoned this avenue for any prospectve future startup companies hoping to use the same scheme to jumpstart their business. It will always be 'Remember the Maxwell experience? Buy it at your own risk!'

 

It's sad too, because in the hands of a well-run outfit ( both from a Techcnical standpoint - which NL, arguably is - and from a PR and client relations perspective - from which NL has failed miserably) this method could really work to the great benefit of both the users ( the Beta purchasers) and the developers of the software.

[Hazdaz]

WOW THOSE IMAGES ARE AMAZING!!

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if they were rendered in realtime!

[Tella]

In my opinion the forum looks dead cause we have nothing to play with since Beta and that was long ago. Personally, I'm just waiting till the next release is ready.

I think that when Next Limit releases something usable the forum plant will get green again; I don't think its really dead.

The great mistake of Next Limit was involving customers in the project before v1.0. That has provided them with many undesirable pressures from outside the team that has affected the project itself and what is worse, it has bounced back to the customers.

They should have known that a customer has no patience (at least not as much as a program developer) and is like a spoilt child that wants things now and perfect. Probably they had to capitalize before finishing the project.

[buffos]

Unfortunatelly many things are broken

 

For example in their site they STILL have beta-rc comparisons

that are made with RS2 engine, that we have been told will not be inlcuded in v1.

 

So i buy maxwell now, believing, the low noise, infinite emmiters..x10 faster to find out... " sorry we forgot to change it but we cannot refund you"

 

Very nice.

 

Unfortunatelly Maxwell has very very few features.

They are trying to convince us that the new material editor will be all the money.

 

Sorry but while the material editor is indeed very powerfull, materials is not everything in a renderer.

 

There are many many features missing, and not goining to be in maxwell for the next year and more.

Starting from displacement, micropoly displacement, clipmaps, volumetrics, baking, procedural materials, programmable materials,ies data for emmiters..... and a very long list of features, ALL promised a long long time ago, and NONE yet delivered.

 

A whole year and not one feature added. On the contrary, a few where subdracted.

 

By the way. Imagine Vray announching 1.5 in 2-3 months.

Vray having both bidirection and path tracing MLT plus usual methods + a ton of other features.

 

Yes i see it all painted black, but i am not responsible for that.

 

NL proved that they are too small for such a project.

 

 

Question: Why then i did not buy Vray?

Answer : Simple. I was promised Maxwell on March 15. Oh 2005 i must add.

Yes i have been decieved... I know... I am a fool

[_PopArt]

By 'too small' do you mean that they don't have enough programmers? I don't think that Chaosgroup is so big, yet they manage to do quite well.

 

Yes you are right about the emphasis they are putting on the materials - its a good example of spin. People on the forum seem to be asking for test renders showing glass, sunlight, etc or comparison images between the beta and the new engine (RC+whatever), but NL insists on only posting images which show the new material system (which looks nice but not that nice really). It's pretty clear how NL chooses to communicate: with a sledgehammer, that is. Materials, materials, materials, even if that is what no one is aking for.

 

I saw that the moderator Thomas An. left - that should be a clear sign that something is amiss. When probably the most serious beta tester walks off that's not good. The other beta testers seem to be more than happy to play the spin game and show only what NL wants people to see...

[Tella]

Should NL plan the job based on customers requests? I don't think so. I think they show the result of what they are working on. If they start working on what their customers ask for, they would find themselves with too many open fronts but none finished; that leads to chaos.

I think they said they were focusing on the materials cause they were the key for the rest.

 

P.S: I'm not part of NL's staff, I'm just trying to get in a software developers mind.

[buffos]

Ofcourse they should define their priorities.

They did say what they features of the program will be, and we ask for them.

Is that so weird? I dont think so.

 

Weird is that they had announched a release 1 year ago, and we still are i year away from the promise land.

 

All inbetween are i think irrelevant

[Tella]

Ofcourse they should define their priorities.

They did say what they features of the program will be, and we ask for them.

Is that so weird? I dont think so.

 

I don't think it's weird; it's logical for a customer to ask for it. What I mean is that they have to go step by step. It looks that they are now working on weight maps, mixing materials, etc. but they are not testing skylight right now; that's all.

[buffos]

and the question is, what have they been doing since June?

[Tella]

Some bullshit that they had to throw to the garbage, probably. Those things happen in development. But is not always useless.

[_PopArt]

Some bullshit that they had to throw to the garbage, probably. Those things happen in developing. But is not always useless.

 

 

[Devin Johnston]

This could have all been avoided if we had a roadmap from the begenning.

[AJLynn]

I don't think the roadmap would have included "August: Realize technology is broken, start over"

 

I wish they would STOP working on materials, keep the beta materials, and concentrate on the caustics problem I've been bitching about, the clipmap/opacity map Michael's been asking for, and the speed. Then worry about making the materials better.

[Fran]

It's possible that the old material system was also going to very soon be a dead end. I suspect that they were unable to resolve the clip map and dielectric problems with the beta materials.

[Ernest Burden III]

It's like we're talking about a vampire world--they go forever, don't reflect in mirrors and have a sunlight problem.

[ivox3]

Ernest, ....damn, Of course! ..you got it. ....they're vampires. Sure, why would a vampire want sunlight.

[ClaudeFerret]

In my opinion the forum looks dead cause we have nothing to play with since Beta and that was long ago. Personally, I'm just waiting till the next release is ready.

I think that when Next Limit releases something usable the forum plant will get green again; I don't think its really dead.

The great mistake of Next Limit was involving customers in the project before v1.0. That has provided them with many undesirable pressures from outside the team that has affected the project itself and what is worse, it has bounced back to the customers.

They should have known that a customer has no patience (at least not as much as a program developer) and is like a spoilt child that wants things now and perfect. Probably they had to capitalize before finishing the project.

You obviously have no idea how the real business world works. I've seen posts like this and others stating " don't pressure them, just give them the time they need ", " don't make them give us something broken " what the hell! Are these posts coming from under age and inexperienced people? Or do they live somewhere near that closet in Narnia.

How could anyone watch what has happened with Maxwell and come to such conclusions? If the Maxwell user base had so much power and influence, why does NL still not keep us updated? I know they have been asked many times

Maybe they haven't had enough pressure to make them do something they don't want to do. LOL

 

BTW, I looked into getting a refund today. It didn't go well, plus it's a lot of work which I didn't have time to do. The main problem comes from not using my credit card. I thought I used my Visa, but apparently I used a checkcard. Short of having tons of complaints about NL, I think I'm stuck with this purchase. I even wrote Chaos Group asking if they might give a competitive upgrade for disgruntled Maxwell users

The answer came back swiftly ( good sign, on customer service ) but no deal

[Fran]

The main problem comes from not using my credit card. I thought I used my Visa, but apparently I used a checkcard. Short of having tons of complaints about NL, I think I'm stuck with this purchase. I even wrote Chaos Group asking if they might give a competitive upgrade for disgruntled Maxwell users

The answer came back swiftly ( good sign, on customer service ) but no deal

 

The Visa check card is supposed to come with the same protections as their credit card. I spoke with my bank yesterday and they urged me to come in and fill out the paper work. Maybe I should call back and confirm that the policy applies to check card purchases as well.

[Tella]

Why do you think they don't want to release the perfect-fast v1.0 render engine right now? They started the project, not customers. The point is that a research project is not like making 3Dviz; when you are making 3D images and customer presses, you stop adding things and finish the images better or worse, but when you are reserching something new sometimes you don't know exactly how to do things, you need time to think and to go back and forth and if you have a dead end maybe you just can't do it cause you haven't managed to solve the problems (and then release RC1); and if you add lots of people shouting around you just makes it worse.

If you know how to do things pressure can be good to make you finish faster, but just put pressure and dead ends to i.e. a scientist developing the cure for cancer and you may obtain bullshit (or RC1) most probably. Ok, Maxwell is not as complex as the cure of cancer but I guess that "physically accurate" thing makes it hard sometimes. I think it's quite incompatible with clipmap, for example.

 

P.S: No, I'm not under age or unexperienced, I'm just open minded and try to see the things from others' point of view.

[ClaudeFerret]

The Visa check card is supposed to come with the same protections as their credit card. I spoke with my bank yesterday and they urged me to come in and fill out the paper work. Maybe I should call back and confirm that the policy applies to check card purchases as well.

Hey Fran,

You are right about the check card if it has the Visa logo. I was also told I would need to fill out some paper work. The way I understood it was if I had made the purchase with the credit card it could be handled over the phone.

 

I was busy yesterday, but I do plan on filling out the paper work soon.

[Brolloks]

Should NL plan the job based on customers requests? I don't think so. I think they show the result of what they are working on. If they start working on what their customers ask for, they would find themselves with too many open fronts but none finished; that leads to chaos.

.

 

Chaosgoup would be happy about that An unintended pun.

[buffos]

The point is that a research project

 

 

A research project is not a commercial project.

So if the status of the project is research you cannot go out and market it as a commercial project.

 

I am 100% you understand the difference.

 

If they have not charged anyones credid card, there would not be all that anger. But they were both greedy and ambitious.

 

A honest company would just refund and stop the fuss.

[Tella]

Chaosgoup would be happy about that An unintended pun.

HAHAha

[Tella]

A research project is not a commercial project.

So if the status of the project is research you cannot go out and market it as a commercial project.

 

I am 100% you understand the difference.

 

If they have not charged anyones credid card, there would not be all that anger. But they were both greedy and ambitious.

 

A honest company would just refund and stop the fuss.

 

I agree. As I said in my first post that is the big mistake they have made: involve customers in a research project.

[_PopArt]

but when you are reserching something new sometimes you don't know exactly how to do things, you need time to think and to go back and forth and if you have a dead end maybe you just can't do it cause you haven't managed to solve the problems (and then release RC1); and if you add lots of people shouting around you just makes it worse.

 

Well, yes and no - alot of stuff in maxwell is new, but mlt algortithms and pathtracing has been around for alot of years, and has always had *known limitations*, such as materials (clip maps), light transmition (as demonstrated by Vlado's test), caustics, sun, noise, slow, etc...As of now it doesnt seem that they've made any visible progress overcoming these *well known* obstacles - after the RC disaster we're only seeing images of the new material system integrated with the old core (this is, btw, great progress). So the question arises: what led them to market something so fast when they were not sure that the *known obstacles* could be overcome? Confidence that they could fix them?