Adehus Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 The smackdown is here: http://www.maxwellrender.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16403&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 It's an interesting thread... and interesting to see how Mihai tries to spin it by showing sub-par beta images. FWIW, though, I think that outside of the complexity of the material system, the biggest differences between the two have nothing to do with the software. Seems to me that the novelty of Maxwell has worn off and the most talented users have moved on... therefore the best users aren't putting the effort into learning the ins and outs of v1 and producing quality work. They're gone... either by choice or by force. The evolution of all of this has been fascinating to watch... how NL went from being the golden child of CG to being viewed as a vindictive, childish, (mendacious, manipulative, unresponsive, censorous, etc...) and stubborn developer with an increasingly complicated, buggy, and overall sub-par product. Users who previously embraced it now simply ignore it. A company practically has to work at it to achieve such a rapid reversal of fortune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 A little editorializing going on there in your post, perhaps? I haven't seen the thread, but when you have to have a defensive discussion on 'the new one is really as good as the original' you're toast. I think it was Fran who first started saying that the RCs were walking around the kingdom naked. As I recall, she was roundly hammered for daring to say that the new engine lacked the artistry of the alpha/beta. I noticed it as well, though to this day i cannot put the difference into words that would convince anyone with an open mind. Artistry is historically hard to define. And I sound like an elitist saying 'well, if you can't see it then maybe you lack the 'eye' to see'. So I won't say that, except I just did. I'm frustrated that I cannot put the issue into words, but so far I haven't managed. But the magic ain't there, and it isn't just having to put up with the NL attitude. It's the software. Something has changed, and not for the better. And back to Chris Nichol's point--when you have different results they can't both be 'un-biased'. There is only one corrcet solution, so which version of Maxwell gets closest to the 'truth' and which is off in the wrong direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 A little editorializing going on there in your post, perhaps? Well... you know me... I haven't seen the thread, but when you have to have a defensive discussion on 'the new one is really as good as the original' you're toast... I think you're essentially right, but it seems to me that part of the reason the v1 imagery is inferior has to do with the increasing complexity of the software coupled with the user's unwillingness to put effort into it. All of the issues you and I have mentioned tend to discourage the continued experimentation necessary to get good imagery. Probably the main reason users were so eager to accept the render times of beta was that the scene setup times were so quick and painless. And back to Chris Nichol's point--when you have different results they can't both be 'un-biased'. There is only one corrcet solution, so which version of Maxwell gets closest to the 'truth' and which is off in the wrong direction? Never understood this either... someone from NL was posting about how they were comparing their images to real world setups using light meters in order to tweak V1. If this work wasn't done for beta, then which one was 'right'/unbiased? If V1 is 'reality', then reality bites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 reality bites. That's precisely why we need art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeSee Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I agree with everything you guys have said. When I purchased the beta, I mostly used it with 3ds max. What I loved was how incredibly easy it was to use. Soooo easy. The hardest challenge for me was getting the best camera settings (which I am sad to say, I still can't do well). Then when the Sketchup plugin was announced I got even more excited. It had some serious problems, but still, the future was looking bright. Putting aside all of the delay and download issues, I was looking forward to 1.0. Then NL came out with this Studio thing; the 3ds max plugin (all of the plugins for that matter) floundered for a while as they continued to develop Studio. When the RCs and 1.0 came out, I was left asking myself, "What happened? This used to be so easy. What the f*&^ is weightmapping and IOR and BSDF and Lambertian and coatings and on and on and on. It just got too hard. So I went from being frustrated with other renderers, where lighting was the bitch for me, to MW, where materials became way too complex. Sure you can still use the default materials such as diffuse, plastic, etc...but damn, the beta already had that. I don't need 1.0 if that's what I want to use. And sure, I can spend mucho time learning the material process in 1.0, but why should I? I didn't have to with the beta! I had hoped that 1.0 would essentially keep the ease of use and setup of the beta, and it's inherent beauty, with less noise, faster renderings, and additional features like displacement, clip mapping, etc. Instead we received a few of these features....and dare I say....a much, much slower or "system memory hog" that is known as 1.0. My machine crawls when I use 1.0. I love how NL said, "MW is much faster when you use 8 machines instead of 1." How stupid is that. In the end, I keep abusing myself by trying to use MW and figuring it out and making it work. Call me a massochist. But man, am I bummed. I am naive for still having hope. Maybe. My .02 cents. Ciao, deesee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I think that part of the problem is that the beta had achieved a very delicated balance. Keep in mind the mlt type path tracing has lots of limitations, mostly meaning long and noisy. If you make such an ambitious material system, and its a good idea, its gonna cause all sorts of problems for the mlt engine in general. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of short cuts had to be made to the engine itself to make it workable. Beta had the right balance, it just worked right. The new material system has lost this balance for now, it just doenst seem right and the problem could be buried under thousands and thousands aof code and algorithms. the idea of butchering the beta for the new materials on paper is a good and ambitious idea, but i always suspected it might be too much for such a delicate render engine. I do agree on the points you guys said about one of the problems being that many people have abandoned maxwell. If the same enthusiasm was there that there was for the beta, Im sure we would be seeing nicer stuff:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I read that thread and did not come away with much. Why can't someone select 3-5 amazing beta images and using V1 and the identical files, have 3-5 V1 pros equal or surpass the beta quality? And then, post the betas and V1 side-by-side for comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 I read that thread and did not come away with much. Why can't someone select 3-5 amazing beta images and using V1 and the identical files, have 3-5 V1 pros equal or surpass the beta quality? And then, post the betas and V1 side-by-side for comments. I think the main reason is because everytime someone has done that in the past, the response from NL mods has been, "you're not using the V1 material system properly!" They tend to hide behind that. Still, none of the same-scene comparisons have been favorable to V1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 I notice that the few poor souls left willing to make any critical comments against 1.0 in that thread are getting the usual gruesome smackdown:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Yes, let's take the mediocre beta images and the exterior and/or studio shots from V1 and compare. I thought Mihai was smarter than that to think that we're so stupid. Anyone who has been listening knows that the problem with Maxwell V1 is indirect lighting. Of all things. Sheesh. Although I am disappointed with this turn of events, I am absolutely not saying this just to be mean or malicious. It is just the way things are and they will not change as long as nobody at NL sees the problem. Lots of people state their opinions about images or software without being labled "whiners" or being back-handed by people who used to be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 It is just the way things are and they will not change as long as nobody at NL sees the problem. Lots of people state their opinions about images or software without being labled "whiners" or being back-handed by people who used to be nice. Yes, it's the same old "shoot the messenger" game. Maximus' collected wisdom from that thread (4 posts): "so obvious the goal of this thread is to bury 1.0 (yet again) and elevate beta to the status of something God like. Wonder if Vray suffered from the same trauma during it's initial developement phase, the quality changed from the early alpha and beta days to the later stages. Strange enough as far as i know people accepted it even tho it still looks very much CG'ish. So for those who wanna have the easy beta style material creation they can use the Wizard, and for the rest of us we can use the other more complex and powerful editor. Hehe i remember back in the beta days when the materials were too simple so we requested more complex powerful materials which would give us more creative power, now when we have that people are complaining and want the old beta materials back. What's wrong with that picture ? people seem to have a problem knowing what they want.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 This reminds me a bit of those old Monty Python sketches: " I came here for an arguement" "No you didn't" "Yes I did" "I don't like the new realease" "Yes you do" "It isn't very good" "Yes it is" "It's nothing like what I wanted when I paid" "Yes it is" "You sold me a dead parrot" "No I didn't he just resting" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 LOL thats quite accurate actually:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus3D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 How charming to see you go around and quote me over here Adam, you must be so proud of yourself being able to quote and make fun of us over here. / Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 How charming to see you go around and quote me over here Adam, you must be so proud of yourself being able to quote and make fun of us over here. I didn't realize it was insulting to quote someone in context. I'd make fun of you over there but they won't let me post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus3D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 So.. i don't care that you can't post. It's not my problem. But i never quite catched why you even quoted me at all. What were you trying to say ?! Hmm.. perhaps i should just quit posting completly at the Maxwell forum as i don't appreciate being backtalked like this when i haven't done anything to you and the others. / Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adehus Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 So.. i don't care that you can't post. It's not my problem. But i never quite catched why you even quoted me at all. What were you trying to say ?! Hmm.. perhaps i should just quit posting completly at the Maxwell forum as i don't appreciate being backtalked like this when i haven't done anything to you and the others. / Max Chill (dude). Not to put words in Adam's mouth, but I think he's suggesting that your posts seem motivated by a need to defend NL (vs acknowledging the reality of the situation), and is essentially saying that he doesn't agree with you. Surprise, surprise- I feel the same way. There's certainly nothing wrong with being quoted... if you don't want to be quoted, then yeah- don't post! You should assume that anything you put online is up for grabs. Just the way it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 But i never quite catched why you even quoted me at all. What were you trying to say ?! Just follow the thread of the thread: something's wrong with v1 in the sense that the renders don't look as good as beta renders. People who raise this issue at the NL forums get shouted down as complainers. The net result may be that NL only hears what it wants to hear, and and therefore this crucial issue may not be addressed. I quote your contribution to that thread in which you dismiss the issue as 1) unjustified complaints by beta-loving conspirators, 2) unjustified complaints the likes of which VRay never had to suffer, 3) unjustified complaints in light of the (useless) Wizard, and 4) unjustified complaints by people who just don't know what they want. So my point is, when you make every conceivable excuse to hide the problem, the problem doesn't get fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus3D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Sigh, it's like trying to argue with a bunch of trolls.. although trolls would make more sense than you guys do. But i get the message, i'll shaddap from now on unless i have something negative to say. Thanks / Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 The best part of the last couple of posts? "Over here" and "over there". It does get confusing at times – its a weird fusion of Maxwell and the Twilight Zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 ...i'll shaddap.../ Max Shaddap? Hey Maximus, did you ever live in Booklin? Ya know, over on toidy-toid and toid? Da stick ball and da bawdwalk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PopArt Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 "unjustified complaints by beta-loving conspirators" ROFL:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I have a feeling that people like Maximus are the life of MW right now. Maximus keeps this product alive at least here. Nothing really fruitful is bieng done with mw here. Even at the MW forum I have to look hard to see new work. It seems like most of the forum post about MW are arguments - without them maxwell is gone from our boards. I cannot really guess the % but I imagine most of the posts are people engaged in disagreement and a very small minority are actual images or requests for comments. In fact if it was for Devin (he may be a zen master) calmly posting his images I think most would not know about MW at all. So I wonder if the forum hadn't degraded the way it did and there wasn't so much heat around the product if it would have faded away. The only reason I can see that maxwell has a pulse is the anger it seems to bring to these boards. Take away that anger I wonder if MW would just go to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Take away that anger I wonder if MW would just go to sleep. That is exactly the scene at the Finalrender/C4D forum. So we get Stage2 while the hapless Max people are just getting Stage1 SP...3? Anyway, the engine has just enough problem to not be all that useful. It's great...almost great. But there's not really any anger. The forum is like a mausoleum. At least the MWR forum may still have some spirit. It is alledged. But the 'angry' were all banned. Who's left to be angry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gattomanzo Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 in all countries were it was a tyrant, all the people who oppose him hardly where imprisoned or killed, and the others were exiled or mocked. For the people that have recognized the tyrant as a saviour, they believed words like "its all going well...don't believe them !!!" story has theached us that, so we know how will it end...with a BLOOD BATH. eheheheheheheh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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