Pricing

[Greg Hess]

Hey Guys,

 

I got a client requesting renders of ACAD files, basically lighting, texturing, and rendering work being done a variety of scenes or models. Whats the average charge for that type of work? I was going to throw out 50/hour or what not. Not entirely sure though. Is it a per charge thing or what?

 

[ July 29, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[Jeff Mottle]

Hey Greg,

 

Sounds a bit low to me. Normally I hear rates of $75-120/hr. If it's simple stuff the overall price will be lower becuase it won't take you very long.

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

I'm very suprised at these prices per hour. In Belgium prices around 50-60€ are quite high.

Normally around 30-40€ is quite reasonable for a freelancer.

 

As 1 US Dollar = 1.01391 Euro / 0,98 USD = 1 Euro, the prices Jeff mentions is about 76-122€, which are really high here in Europe... We should move our office imho...

 

rgds

 

nisus

[John Dollus]

If you are doing the job on the side as moonlighting, your price is a bit high. If you are a freelancer working out of your house and have your own equipment/insurance/taxes and such to cover, the price marginal. If you are operating as a sole proprietor in a registered business, your price is much too low.

Then again, where are you located?

 

John D

[Ernest Burden III]

>I'm very suprised at these prices per hour. In Belgium prices around 50-60€ are quite high.

Normally around 30-40€ is quite reasonable for a freelancer.

 

There can be quite a difference from the coasts of the US to the center of the country. In New York, some renderers can get $250/hour, with a low of about $100/hour. But people that work in the rest of the country usually charge much less, maybe more around the $100/hour number. One reason is that renting a broom closet to live in in NYC can run to several thousand dollars a month. We pay the same for computers and software, but space and talent cost more than most markets.

 

So why don't all of our clients simple call renderers in Indiana? They want face-time. They want you to go to their office and look at their drawings and nod approvingly. This is because they are insecure and need verification wherever they can get it, even from renerers whom they look down on like pondscum. But I digress...

 

As 1 US Dollar = 1.01391 Euro / 0,98 USD = 1 Euro, the prices Jeff mentions is about 76-122€, which are really high here in Europe...

 

So what is the cost of living in your market? If it costs you half as much to live, then we could be making the same profit at very different rates. But the tax bite is very high in Europe, isn't it?

 

We should move our office imho...

 

Maybe not.

 

And what of the Asian market? I know nothing about how work is done and billed there, and it is a huge market. I know a renderer that commutes between NY and Singapore, he has rendering companies in both, his brother has a big digital company in...Hong Kong I think.

 

Ernest Burden III

[nisus]

Hi Ernest,

 

Indeed prices depend a lot on cost of living. As it is a free market I think everyone somehow knows what is a reasonable price in their area.

 

But what about animations? How much do you charge, say for a 5minute film? Do you work on an per hour rate or a fixed price?

 

And what about the Asian market, someone who can share some information about it?

 

rgds

 

nisus

[Tony]

I am curious if your are talking about just rendering a file on your computers that has been provided to you that is ready to render. Or are you talking about doing the job from start to finish? Modeling, textures, lighting, etc.

[matt_vinoir]

Tony read the root message.

[Francois]

Hello Jeff and everyone. 100$/hr seems a lot of money to me. I would love to charge that much. If a rendering job takes you one week (40hr) you charge 4000$.???

The clients pay that kind of money all the time???. I understand if it is a 50storie high rise worth millions, ok. But if it is just a small kitchen??

 

Dont the clients find 3D renderings expensive at these prices?

 

Francois

rosemere, Canada

[Greg Hess]

Thanks for all your suggestions and assistance. Looks like the client settled at 150 USD/hour since I have to do some DXF/DXG reconstructions of the model base. They also want cloth on it (its a bed) so I factored that into the cost as well.

 

So basically....

 

Simple model rebuild

Texturing

Cloth + Dynamic system

Lighting

Rendering

With and Without Alpha's

 

150 USD/hour based out of College Park, Maryland. Client is in Toronto Canada, and is the producer of the furniture we design.

 

I also asked this question on the Discreet forum's to gather even more feedback, and overall pretty much no one is charging less then 100 USD/hour and in my area, sometimes as much as 250 USD. If you want to check out that particular thread, its in take5 of the support.discreet.com 3dsmax forum, under Render Pricing.

 

Now I have an excuse to upgrade the 1900+ MP's to 2200+ MP's. Heh.

 

[ August 02, 2002, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Greg Hess ]

[Francois]

Hi Greg.

 

Out of curiosity, how many hours will you be charging??? Did you agree on a fixed number of hours, or do you just go and bill them later, no matter how long it takes.

 

Thanks

 

Francois

[Greg Hess]

The work will most likely take 2-3 hours, so we quoted 300-500 per project.

[John Dollus]

Your conclusion seems reasonable.

 

Hourly rates are funny - if you are new and inexperienced, it will take you longer to finish the job so you make more money. If you are an expert in the software, it will only take a fraction of the time, so go broke.

 

If I start doing all my work on my old 386, I will be able to retire early!

[John Dollus]

Just wanted to add another perspective:

 

In St. Louis, anybody can have a very nice acrylic or watercolor rendering for around $1500 mounted and framed so the ceiling is set for renderings.

[Ernest Burden III]

Originally posted by john Dollus:

In St. Louis, anybody can have a very nice acrylic or watercolor rendering for around $1500 mounted and framed so the ceiling is set for renderings.[/QB]

Slow down, way too few variables. There may be some people who will work that low, but not many. Do you think you get Richard Sneary (maybe my favorite watercolorist in the US, works that market) for that money? More importantly, does that fee include view angle studies, perspective construction (whether manual or digital), full entourage, accurate lighting and material representation etc.? Probably not. I know of some renderers that require the client to provide a wireframe to do a rendering. It keeps costs down but limits clients at the same time.

 

Now, if there ARE people who want to do renderings for super low fees, let them. They will probably burn themselves out, but either way, you cannot stop them. But you can stress to a client how your work is worth the difference. If all they want is a cheapo rendering, is that what you want to be known for? If all else fails, you can turn down a client that thinks your rate is too high. They should call renders-R-us. Spend your effort finding a better client rather than getting taken advantage of.

 

Ernest Burden III

[John Dollus]

Ernest:

 

I was only pointing out a difference in geography - nothing more. The fee I pointed out is for angle studies, perspective construction, full entourage and all that goes with it (and a one week turnaround). These are old-time perspectivists that were being published when Mr. Sneary was still being told by Mike Lin that he wasn't 'woose' enough.

I just leave those clients alone. After all, I don't do renderings, I create environments

[Ernest Burden III]

Originally posted by john Dollus:

>The fee I pointed out is for angle studies, perspective construction, full entourage and all that goes with it (and a one week turnaround).

 

I guess there are rendering factories there, too. I wasn't aware of any in MO, just the Art Assoc and Howard Assoc ones in Ohio, and Rose in Texas. Maybe it's a good business model, just not for me.

 

>when Mr. Sneary was still being told by Mike Lin that he wasn't 'woose' enough.

 

I only recently had any dealing with Mr. Lin. He asked me to contribute some pictures for a book, which I did in the end. But in his request for info on the picture he asked "client permission to use picture?" I responded that the clients needed my permission and not the other way around. It indicates a very old mindset, and almost made me decline the invitation. I never answered the question, except to tell him I owned copyright and that was that.

 

>I just leave those clients alone. After all, I don't do renderings, I create environments

 

Actually, I really have come to believe in that concept more and more lately. Selling renderings is a self-limiting career. Selling visualization services is much more to the point and can be more profitable. The old way of working did not allow the versatility that digital does. But looking at your output as 'renderings' wastes a lot of the potential of the digital environment.

 

Many years ago a renderer from Los Angeles, Carlos Diniz, started selling presentations of architectural subjects. These were based on his renderings but the renderings were not what the client was really paying for. That, I think, is a more effective business model for people like us. It can take time to get clients to think differently, but it can be done.

 

Ernest Burden III

[Greg Hess]

Hey Guys...

 

Just to let you know...The client approved the fee. 150 USD an hour with minimal remodeling of dxf files (very simple models) materials, lighting, dynamics (they want cloth drapped over it), and probably 10 or so renders at high res. (150 dpi 20cm x 20cm)

 

When the project gets done I'll post the images if I get permission. Thanks again for all the great advice.

[Wolf]

couldnt agree with you more Ernest

 

there will always be McDonalds for a cheap feed,

but restaurants can still charge 10 times the amount, and are still busy

 

to give u guys a perspective, we just quoted a job that requires 160 hours of work,

and the quote went out at $32,000

so i guess we charge 200/hr

 

the bloke down the road working from home. will probably quote half that...maybe less.

but he cant produce the quality, level of detail, render the animations, and supply the amount of product that we do, in the time that we can do it in.

[nisus]

good thinking wolf

[Ernest Burden III]

Originally posted by Wolf:

 

the bloke down the road working from home. will probably quote half that...maybe less.

but he cant produce the quality, level of detail, render the animations, and supply the amount of product that we do, in the time that we can do it in.[/QB]

Probably not. But if he can, there are two things to do about it. First, make friends with him, and let him in on some pro-level thinking, including how much what he's doing can really be worth. He's not going to enjoy losing large amounts on every job and knowing he's being a tool. Get him up to 'professional standards' and then he won't undercut you so much. Or, hire him, pay him what he was happy charging and mark it up to your client at your company rate, so you make money off his work and remove him from competition.

 

By the way, I am not a competitive person, as implied above. I am friends with many of the renderers in my market, and many outside it, too. But rendering is a business, and having a competitor dumping products and services into a market at below-market rates is not good for anybody. So you can help them and help yourself and your industry by promoting professional practices.

 

But price fixing is illegal.

 

Ernest Burden III

[mbr]

I agree with Mr. Ernest Burden III, there are many variables with regards to quality/cash. Watercolor renders that where done for firms (architectural) that I worked for where more like $7000 - $40000 for one image. That's great pay, but the guys could take some sketches and ideas and turn them into a beautiful presentation in a few days, so they were worth it. $1500 sounds more like a students or lesser quality rendering.

Usually, it seems that clients care nothing about the hourly fee if you give them a set number (why should they?), so you could charge $300/hr if you did it really, really fast, or $50/hr if you are new and slow. But again, the quality depends. If you do a supper nice, GI/Radiosity rendering it should cost much more than a typical rendering. Also, I should mention, that I left the architecture profession (a Bach from UF and a Masters from UCLA, both in arch) for this because of the money ; ) and I am sure that I am not the only one that chose this path on here.

[John Dollus]

$32,000 for a single rendering? Not even an animation?! I would be laughed out of town. That's more than I make in a year!

Like I said - matter of geography. Sad but true

 

On a side note: Just hired a fantastic Maya animator/modeler with 2 yrs experience for $20,000/yr (just to give some perspective)

[Wolf]

for 32,000 we supply prints from several views, night shots to show different lighting, 9am 12pm 3pm shots to convey shadows, 3 minutes of animation, editing and compositing...output to dvd or video.

 

we offer all of the above as part of the service,

because as far as we are concerned, it doesnt take much more time once the model is built,

and animations are done overnight on the render farm.

 

the bloke down the road will quote for the simple homes and win those jobs,

but when you have large developments that need to be done in a certain timeframe with profesionalism and quality product,

yes our quotes are much higher...but we give a lot more...all in the same time that the fellow down the road takes to produce a single perspective.

[Jeff Mottle]

John, what is the cost of living like where you live? I am shocked that both your hourly and salaries are SO low! Calgary has one of the lowests costs of living in North America for how big it is (about 1 million people) and salaries for what we do range from $35,000/year for entry level to $50-60 for senior CGartists. The hourly rate is anywhere from $85-125.

 

To give you an idea of cost of living, starter homes range from $150,000 to $220,000 for 1400-1700sq ft. The lots are about 30-40 feet wide and about 120 ft deep.

 

A Small Toyota will run you about $25,000 and sport Utility (say a Nissan Pathfinder) anywhere from $35,000 to $45,000

 

I've traveled quite a bit in the US and comparible the cost of services and clothing etc is almost the same price in US dollars as it is in Canadian dollars. Some exceptions like electronics are much cheaper in the US, as is food.

 

Anyway some perspective from Western Canada. Vancouver and Toronto are considerable more expensive than Calgary.