Client has not paid. What do I do?

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Hey guys,

I have a job that I completed for an architect. Payment is overdue by almost 2 months. He states that when he is paid, then he will pay my invoice. However, from what I can tell, complications have risen between him and his client, so I don't even know if he'll get paid. I was foolish to send him the final images, before receiving final payment, thing is I had done work with him previously and he had paid me, so I trusted him. I learned my lesson. Anyways, what can I do? My contract says interest collects monthly, but that's it. Does not talk about what happens if client refuses to pay. What do you guys do to protect yourselves, (other than not submit finals until payment arrives). Is the lien process possible? I live in Florida.

[Arnold Sher]

Hi Jonathan,

 

We have been down various roads of exploration over the years with the issue. We've sued ( rather expensive and time consuming), we've threatened (not great for return business ) and we've written some off as bad debt. All problematic for reasons mentioned but for the last couple of years we've really got into managing the situation from a completely different point of view. We have all heard "i have not been paid by my client so i cannot pay you" story, not that it should be our problem but suddenly it becomes one but the way to sort that out is to hook that client up with the next job. You might think that we are mad but it works like a charm. We do not even mention to the client (after mentioning for the last 2-3 months) that he has an outstanding invoice but we take on another job from that office (even when your common sense says you should run). We then complete the new job, send a client a preview size about 400x220px (watermarked) and 10 minutes before his deadline we tell him that we are not releasing the finished job due to non payment of previous invoice. Now this method has been tried and tested by a friend of mine, director of an interior design firm who actually was the one that introduced us to this practice and amazingly watch your non paying client sort his ducks out in a flash once he knows that now it is his arse that is burning. Suddenly confirmation of electronic payment arrive and heated discussion happen. Remember, he is the one that tried to screw you in the first place and you are just reversing who is getting bitched slapped. Hopefully this helps... Good luck!!

[AJLynn]

I was going to post something clever involving a reference to a Sylvester Stallone movie but Arnold's plan has a certain appeal. Assuming you're good enough with your contracts that it doesn't get you sued...

[Iain Denby]

Arnold. Love it!

[anejo]

You can contact a lawyer and have them draft a simple letter on one of their letterhead requesting payment. Although, it may cost you a couple hundred dollars, it will get your client attention.

[Justin Hunt]

Arnolds methode is very good and effective.

 

There are also debt collection agencies, basically you sign the debt over to them for a % and they chase the money. They have no problem with black listing and affecting credit ratings.

 

Its nasty but often just telling the client that the matter is being handed over sorts it out. Of course it will affct repeat business too.

 

My favourite one is when I get told that he will not pay because the project didn't get council aproval.

 

jhv

[DavidR]

How about starting a listing of clients who don't pay? Put the company name and their employee's names. Maybe blacklisting will freeze them out (eventually).

[Bruce Hart]

I work with a lady whose husband is a freelance artist. They were owed some money by a guy who just would not pay up after repeated requests. This debt was then "sold" to a local motorcycle gang. The dudes in the gang then paid a visit to the debtor, to politely discuss that he was now in debt to the bikers, and revised payment options/deadlines. Apparently the outstanding money was paid quite promptly.

 

This method is not for everyone, as you need to "know some people, who know some people, who rob some people".

[BVI]

Hey Arnold. I like it, but I can't stomach working for people who don't pay us. We have also sued several times, it cost about the same amount that we got back, so only the attorneys made any money. My latest action is to use a really good debt collector (give me a shout if you need her details) - she only gets paid on collection, so unlike an attorney; it's in her interest to make things happen. All in all, it messes up the relationship - who wants to work with somebody who threatens to sue them. I see this as a last resort.

 

I also pester the hell out of the client who owes us the money (daily sms, calls, emails- cc everybody involved etc). My contract ties them up legally, so if the money is due, then they must pay - I don't care if they havent been paid.

[ihabkal]

From now on I will never submit finals until payment arrives. I always tell myself that, I always give the client their images, and they always delay or not pay until they need me for another project.

[M V]

My policy is simple... I send all samples and screenshots with watermarks, send final low res sample with watermark, when you pay me in FULL, I send the final unmarked full res image. I used to do net 30 and was taken advantage of several times.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Yeah.. I do NET30 too. I think I'll got the Sylvester Stallone route, if only life were a video game... :-). Actually the debt collector route seems worthwhile. If anybody has recommendations on good debt collecting agencies, would love to hear it.

[Nic H]

kidnap his children imo

[Frosty]

Being on the other side of the fence, I'm primarily an architect now, I can tell you that this mentality of "you'll get paid when we get paid" is quite common in the industry. I mean architecture, not arch viz. Here is why:

 

Architects usually work with consultants as a part of a team. Civil, electrical, mechanical, structural, sustainability, lighting, traffic, and acoustics are all generally disciplines that would in concert with the architect. The architect is typically the Prime in this relationship with the client and all money and communication with the client flows through the architect. But here is the difference. All of those consultants generally sign a contract that leaves them with a contractual relationship with the client as well as the architect. Arch Viz consultants typically do not do this. However, the architect often tries to for a viz consultant into similar payment schemes even though they have no relationship with the client (owner).

 

I don't agree with this methodology, but it is common. I usually equate it more to a service provided to the architect. Like the power that runs the office. Or their internet service. Or their couriers.

 

I hope that clears up the "why it happens".

[M V]

I dont know when it became ok to provide a product (yes, a rendering is a product in my opinion), and not get paid upon delivery. I'm not QVC, I will offer 'easy-pay' plans or net 30 or 60 or 90 (YIKES!). I'm sure the bigger rendering houses can afford it, but when I finish a job, I have to be paid, bottom line. Once the image is delivered, thats it. If you dont get paid, then you might never see the cash. I have a strict policy about pay me and then I deliver your image. If I lose out on a job because of it, then that's fine. I would rather not work 20 hours on a rendering and be stuck with a 90 day past due invoice, hiring a knee-buster to collect it.

[markf]

I always require 1/2 the cost up front as a start up fee. That can remove 50% of the pain. I also remember a previous thread on this topic here. The best solution seemed to be to call the non-payers wife at home and explain the situation to her. I've tried it and it worked

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Well I threatened him with the debt collecting agency stuff and as expected that got a reaction out of him claiming it would be my last commission from his office. You know, I provided great service to this guy, I was always respectful and on time, and now he's mad at me for fighting for what I'm owed. Learn from my lesson guys, do NOT submit finals until you receive FULL payment!

[Devin Johnston]

I'm going through the same thing right now, I handed over the work with the promise of payment and that was 3 months ago. In the future I'm going to demand payment upon delivery without exception and I don't care how much they complain, it's a service like any other and it has value. I like the idea of holding them hostage until payment is received but this guy probably won't be coming back anyway so that won't work this time.

[thinice]

I used to do a lot of work for architects.

 

Not any more - due to all the problems highlighted above.

 

Nowadays, even if an architect approaches me, I ask them to connect me directly to the client. Otherwise, it is 50% up front. No negotation.

 

Just the way I do it...

 

.. and BTW, it is quite common for end clients to give me 30% or 50% up front. Forget that with architects.

Edited September 2, 2010 by thinice

[Justin Hunt]

I have had a recent experience of this too, but with a twist.

 

I did the job, which was a nightmare. issued the images and because I have done alot of work for the PM and architect in the past I didn't ask for POD. However the client then started to dispute the invoice, three months later and still no payment I told him that I was handing the matter over to my accountant. Naturally he flipped his lid and told me he would not pay a cent.

 

Now here's the twist.

 

The council rejected the scheme because it didn't meet regulations. A new scheme is needed. When I informed the PM that I have not been paid and was handing the matter over and forget abot doing any further work for him or his client in the future, he said he'd get back to me.

 

A couple of hours later I got a call from the client saying he has deposited the money.

 

Last week I submitted a quote for the new submission, and in BOLD, highlighted the fact that no images will be handed over until full payment is made. Now I am waiting to see if its accepted. In some ways I am hoping its not.

 

Lesson learnt. I personally have difficulty with such aggressive tactics, but I am also not a charity.

 

jhv

[John Dollus]

Well, if the client is local, you can sit in their lobby until they cut a check. For my jobs, I usually like to structure it in a way so the final payment amounts to about 10-15% of the fee to minimize exposure but for smaller jobs, it's just not very practical to do that. I also have a conversation at the beginning of the project to explain that if there is a 3rd party responsilble for payments that I'd be happy to contract directly with the responsible party if my own contact would prefer not to be on the hook for payments and possible additional expenses related to overdue payments. Often, the architecture firm will add a 20% consultancy fee to whatever the rendering contract is so that's negotiable to add into the base contract for third party as well. Lots of ways to protect yourself a bit. I've also had more trouble collecting from larger firms than the smaller design studios.

[wasteland giant]

I work with a lady whose husband is a freelance artist. They were owed some money by a guy who just would not pay up after repeated requests. This debt was then "sold" to a local motorcycle gang. The dudes in the gang then paid a visit to the debtor, to politely discuss that he was now in debt to the bikers, and revised payment options/deadlines. Apparently the outstanding money was paid quite promptly.

 

This method is not for everyone, as you need to "know some people, who know some people, who rob some people".

 

 

LOL

 

I live near the local tattoo parlour (0.6 min away) and there was a gang shooting last year november.

 

Bikies..

[Roodogg]

I think this would be difficult where I live lol

[aristocratic3d]

Suppose the client did not tell you the actual deadline for the second project. when you submit the second the way you have mentioned. he just send his work to another guy as he have 15 more days in his hand. ?

Lol. I would not take that risk.

Hi Jonathan,

 

We have been down various roads of exploration over the years with the issue. We've sued ( rather expensive and time consuming), we've threatened (not great for return business ) and we've written some off as bad debt. All problematic for reasons mentioned but for the last couple of years we've really got into managing the situation from a completely different point of view. We have all heard "i have not been paid by my client so i cannot pay you" story, not that it should be our problem but suddenly it becomes one but the way to sort that out is to hook that client up with the next job. You might think that we are mad but it works like a charm. We do not even mention to the client (after mentioning for the last 2-3 months) that he has an outstanding invoice but we take on another job from that office (even when your common sense says you should run). We then complete the new job, send a client a preview size about 400x220px (watermarked) and 10 minutes before his deadline we tell him that we are not releasing the finished job due to non payment of previous invoice. Now this method has been tried and tested by a friend of mine, director of an interior design firm who actually was the one that introduced us to this practice and amazingly watch your non paying client sort his ducks out in a flash once he knows that now it is his arse that is burning. Suddenly confirmation of electronic payment arrive and heated discussion happen. Remember, he is the one that tried to screw you in the first place and you are just reversing who is getting bitched slapped. Hopefully this helps... Good luck!!

[domaincabinets]

Hey guys,

I have a job that I completed for an architect. Payment is overdue by almost 2 months. He states that when he is paid, then he will pay my invoice. However, from what I can tell, complications have risen between him and his client, so I don't even know if he'll get paid. I was foolish to send him the final images, before receiving final payment, thing is I had done work with him previously and he had paid me, so I trusted him. I learned my lesson. Anyways, what can I do? My contract says interest collects monthly, but that's it. Does not talk about what happens if client refuses to pay. What do you guys do to protect yourselves, (other than not submit finals until payment arrives). Is the lien process possible? I live in Florida.

 

 

Hello

 

Fit this is full cockamamy feeling that you hold done . Never do this in succeeding again .Basic act commercialism then communicate all documents some client look .

Thanx

 

 

Thanx