philippelamoureux Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 this is one really interesting topic we all struggle when it comes to having paid well according to the work u do , what makes me frustrated is when you show the good high quality you can offer but still clients tries to trick you down. im always wondering is it better to have standard prices for what you offer? do we charge per shot , per space, what would be an average good price ?? i usually charge per project ? coz most of the times i do the whole model , i find it ridiculous to just model one corner unless the client is so specific in what he wants. i work in dubai market and sadly there many low quality works here and it low priced . which affects you when asking for good prices?! i was wondering what would i must charge as a freelancer for some works i do. ? https://www.behance.net/gallery/22655815/Living-Room-in-winter- im starting to draw a range between 600-2000 $ per shot ? but still i find it low for the quality and dedication i can provide ? advice's will be appreciated you can find my work here this is one important subject lets make it worth for all thx.. Wow man your work is incredible. I would charge no less than 1800$ per still if I had that skill hehe! Are you willing to tell us how much you sold these 8 still for the Beirut project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkylineArch Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 almost 27k views. a lot of people do not know what to charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
himanshuchoudhary Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hassan, some real good work there! I just have one question, that if whether this was a commissioned project or a personal one. In the last 4 years i have been working in this field, never once have i come across clients who want such views as posted by you on the link. And Juraj, What a reply! Haha, thanks for the information! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Jaber Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thx Himanshu , actually this was a client job , that i later developed and added some shots. it was done for 2000$. for the space. which i believe now is much less than what it deserve to be . here is the struggle . you cant produce less quality than what you usually produce and still you must get well paid for such work!! so i believe a common range between all users would be really helpful to tell how we should start charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Jaber Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Wow man your work is incredible. I would charge no less than 1800$ per still if I had that skill hehe! Are you willing to tell us how much you sold these 8 still for the Beirut project? hello Philipe , thx for your comments actually they wanted only 4 shots, for $2000 , and others were added by me coz i loved the project . but here is the struggle shall we just stick to shot base nor build a whole model ? coz u know when u have the space done its easier to place a camera anywhere and take pictures here and there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 hello Philipe , thx for your comments actually they wanted only 4 shots, for $2000 , and others were added by me coz i loved the project . but here is the struggle shall we just stick to shot base nor build a whole model ? coz u know when u have the space done its easier to place a camera anywhere and take pictures here and there I'd say your client doesn't have to know it's a bit easier for you to do 3rd, 4th, 5th...shot but they have to realize there is time spent on composition, post prod and rendering for each images!!! I'd probably offer a small reduction (15-20%) for each additionnal view the client want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliviecharbonneau Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Hassan your shots are top notch. I doubt most clients would pay for the extra time/skill/quality involved (?) because this is beyond average expectation and average quality : to make the most of it you need to find the clients who are able to appreciate it and pay for it From what I know, on my market in France, for normal clients (not "big budget for the perfect shots"), these 8 images would be sold definitely more than 2000$ by a freelance : I would say twice that or more, say 4000€ and more, taking in account it is a set of 8 shots in the SAME room/space. And this would be cheap because the quality is so high, but again who would pay extra for that very high quality? At the same time the same 8 images sold by a star freelance or a studio to a fancy client could be invoiced 8000€ or more I'm sure. Edited February 3, 2015 by oliviecharbonneau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 From what I know, on my market in France, for normal clients (not "big budget for the perfect shots"), these 8 images would be sold definitely more than 2000$ by a freelance : I would say twice that or more, say 4000€ and more, taking in account it is a set of 8 shots in the SAME room/space. And this would be cheap because the quality is so high, but again who would pay extra for that very high quality? At the same time the same 8 images sold by a star freelance or a studio to a fancy client could be invoiced 8000€ or more I'm sure. Not always.. I agree that any "freelancer" would be silly to let them go for under a few thousand $$.. but.. I have done work for many big clients in my time, and a lot of them wont pay huge amounts at all. Since they are usually big, fancy, well known projects, they expect everyone to want to be a part of it for the prestige factor.. so they get or expect brilliant quality renderings but wont pay very much for them. The thing is, they will approach many many people and the allure of big fancy projects and the promise of more work will work on at least one of them and so they get their cheap but brilliant renderings.. then next project they do it all again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philippelamoureux Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Not always.. I agree that any "freelancer" would be silly to let them go for under a few thousand $$.. but.. I have done work for many big clients in my time, and a lot of them wont pay huge amounts at all. Since they are usually big, fancy, well known projects, they expect everyone to want to be a part of it for the prestige factor.. so they get or expect brilliant quality renderings but wont pay very much for them. The thing is, they will approach many many people and the allure of big fancy projects and the promise of more work will work on at least one of them and so they get their cheap but brilliant renderings.. then next project they do it all again. That's why 3d people have to stop giving away their hard work for free, even for the prestige!!! Unless they can make a contract stating YOU will get the next 5 projects or something like that hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 That's why 3d people have to stop giving away their hard work for free, even for the prestige!!! Unless they can make a contract stating YOU will get the next 5 projects or something like that hehe. Exactly.. but thats never going to happen, specially when there are more and more people and studios trying to get their foot in the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have never understood the Per space price model, there are some ridiculously small appartments that have much more detail that a huge warehouse. Same goes with pricing animations, typically they are priced $/minute of animation, I am taking about traditional walkthroughs that we all hate but clients insist on. What would be a better method to calculate prices for animations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have never understood the Per space price model, there are some ridiculously small appartments that have much more detail that a huge warehouse. Same goes with pricing animations, typically they are priced $/minute of animation, I am taking about traditional walkthroughs that we all hate but clients insist on. What would be a better method to calculate prices for animations? Thats why I simply charge per render.. Basically I quote.. Fee for CAD modelling.. this differs depending on if its from CAD, Revit, sketchup etc.. and then a price per image that depends on the amount of work needed. Every job is different, so no need having a standard price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliviecharbonneau Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) Yes Cameron, not always, that's why I wrote "normal clients" meaning the average clients who are still willing to pay in exchange of work. Obviously there are a lot of other scenarios and what you describe is nasty but true in some cases. Personnaly when a client asks for a good price for the first project "because after there will be lots of projects and piles of money and babes in a swimming-pool" I think about how much Santa Claus doesn't exist, and I say "No thank you very much, it will be normal price first and then lowered price for the next projects as we go along". Being screwed is too easy and I personnaly stop that game. Also I think there is a HUGE problem doing 3d as a business: love. We love what we do so we don't always count money or time involved. This is a HUGE bias factor in how the whole 3d field is articulated business-wise. This goes for ArchViz and VFX. We spend many hours on experiments and details that most people won't see, and we spend countless hours in self-training : nobody pays us for that and this lowers our profitability "per hour" a lot. We do it this way because we love it, that's all and that's good for us, and there will always be another 3d freelance or employee that would accept to do the same or a better job for less money (because he just loves it and he wants to prove himself!) and this is not how good business is usualy driven in general. Love and profit are hard to fit together. This is the "artist dilemna" and it is a choice to live with it, or to leave it for an other less interesting job That being said some 3d people make good money obviously, freelance or employee, but this affection we have for our discipline naturaly drags all the prices/salaries down. Creative people in general tend to get used or manipulated by more money-oriented people. Edited February 4, 2015 by oliviecharbonneau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howelaw1 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Charge per image no matter what...there will always be changes and little things you don't notice, even if it is a 'similar view'. You'll regret not charging full price later when you realise you're just working on a new image Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Jaber Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hassan your shots are top notch. I doubt most clients would pay for the extra time/skill/quality involved (?) because this is beyond average expectation and average quality : to make the most of it you need to find the clients who are able to appreciate it and pay for it From what I know, on my market in France, for normal clients (not "big budget for the perfect shots"), these 8 images would be sold definitely more than 2000$ by a freelance : I would say twice that or more, say 4000€ and more, taking in account it is a set of 8 shots in the SAME room/space. And this would be cheap because the quality is so high, but again who would pay extra for that very high quality? At the same time the same 8 images sold by a star freelance or a studio to a fancy client could be invoiced 8000€ or more I'm sure. thx for this, well truly im still facing this issue , you know when u work with someone and he still works with different people , and you dont want to quote high so you dont loose the project ? and what happens is when you start working and realize that you asked lets say 5000-6000 $ for 10 different spaces. !! at beginning u feel its a right thing to do, but when u realize that this house was is going to be built for around 10 millions dollars then u can oops i would've ask more !! this is i believe the issue we all face.. fear of loosing a project , and getting paid for less what you deserve or even not knowing the real value of your work.. any tips on this to be shared will be great . thx again for all for opening such a disusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Jaber Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Thats why I simply charge per render.. Basically I quote.. Fee for CAD modelling.. this differs depending on if its from CAD, Revit, sketchup etc.. and then a price per image that depends on the amount of work needed. Every job is different, so no need having a standard price. i agree with you , but you know you got this thing were lets say u have an open apartment and the client wants 5 shots for each space ? its rare that they accept to be charged 2000-3000 $ per image or space so it will be a budget of 10000-15000 in all? don't know if this usually occurs we all would love to be paid this way but is this usually what happens? they will claim its one space one model you can use furniture here and there u know all these discussions and you don't want to loose it with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oliviecharbonneau Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I always quote "per project" based on the client's initial brief for a set of images or an animation, and during the project of course if the client wants an extra shot then I get into the "per shot" pricing. All that to say that I personnaly don't start a project's pricing "per shot" because the client usually wants a package price with minimum surprises and additions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 '''at beginning u feel its a right thing to do, but when u realize that this house was is going to be built for around 10 millions dollars then u can oops i would've ask more !!'''....why would you ask for more ? no Investor is willing to pay you more just because the house is more expensive...he would have to pay plenty of people more...each contractor and engineer...Its like a doctor or a restaurant owner would ask me to pay more money because I have a higher income then the guy next to me. well...sometimes people earn more because of a high project bugdet. In some EU countries architects charge a certain percentage of the project budget (by law). If you feel that you deserve more moeny for your pictures, then you have to give your client a reason to pay your more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog_a_lot Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 i agree with you , but you know you got this thing were lets say u have an open apartment and the client wants 5 shots for each space ? its rare that they accept to be charged 2000-3000 $ per image or space so it will be a budget of 10000-15000 in all? don't know if this usually occurs we all would love to be paid this way but is this usually what happens? they will claim its one space one model you can use furniture here and there u know all these discussions and you don't want to loose it with them. The cost/effort is reflected in the quote. If there are 5 shots all in a similar area then the price per shot will be lower. In your example the price per shot may be half the usual cost because I am doing a few of the same area... If the shots are of totally different rooms then the cost will be more per shot. I don't have a specific price and every shot is the same price no matter what, that would be silly. By saying per shot I don't mean I say to the client "$1500 per image".. I quote for the entire project with a per shot break down, ie; Cad Modelling - $500 2x Interiors - $3000 3 Exteriors - $5000 Total - $8500 Then if they mention they may need more shots i will include something along the lines of *Additional images charged at $1200 per image as discussed* Those prices where made up out of thin air and do not reflect my pricing As for the building being worth more therefor i should charge more.. good luck with that. Although you can usually work out pretty quickly what projects have a bit of extra padding in them and what dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Is there anyone from Austria or Germany? what are the prices there for a mid-range image? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 thats the issue..what is midrange image?...In Berlin you might get an image for 300-500 Euro because there are a lot of students and artist that fight for jobs. In Munich, Hamburg, Vienna however you would pay 700-900 Euros for the same picture...again, living cost...demand and supply etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajrohamdo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Sounds resonable to me. I know that the focus should be in trying to get out of the mid range and not money, but, it's really important to know whether it's worth putting all the effort in reaching some higher levels if it all doesn't pay off. And one more thing is bothering me... The whole archviz story has come to a certain level, and I'm wondering, what's it gonna be in let's say, five or ten years? Will it be better or worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderSK Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 And one more thing is bothering me... The whole archviz story has come to a certain level, and I'm wondering, what's it gonna be in let's say, five or ten years? Will it be better or worse? I have just got back from an autodesk seminar, and it is very worrying that an architect, with little cad experience, can produce a 3d model and render it. Where does that leave those of us who rely on skills and not qualifications? http://forums.cgarchitect.com/376-worried-future.html It's been 13 years since Drake was worried archviz will come to an end. I am sure he wasn't the first either. Immortal question, and no answer.. perhaps better for some and worse for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 As long as there is architecture there will be a need to visualize it. How we visualize it may be different, but the core is always going to be the same. We might all go to the holo-shed to view our work and hopefully avoid having our holographic work come to life to kill humanity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGJEYITBZUk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I have architects re-doing their renderings and I posted a high end nyc project that I worked on re-rendering and re-doing entourage. Designers can do 3D adequately for design dev. purposes but renderings with persuasive aesthetic qualities (composition, light balance, high quality shaders, effective entourage etc.) will always be in demand and it's something designers don't have the time to get good at. And design development was done by sketching before user friendly software so it's not work that's been taken away from renderers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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